Religion and Spirituality, Science and Philosophy Use this forum to discuss what you believe in. This is a place where everyone may share their views freely.
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Re: What proof do you want? And in turn, what proof do you have? -
April 2nd 2009, 11:48 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by YourNightmare
Any other TH member can come and debate in here. However, if they cant keep up mentally, then it somewhat sifts out the stupider ones. I don't know what you expect me to say. Yes, the intelligent ones typically give the controversial debates. If you want, make a thread for the less intelligent ones. I see what you mean: the smarter people and usually the more regular ones can give a good debate, the stupider ones cannot.
If you're less educated, then you tend to give lamer responses or just dance around the question, or even contradict yourself. If you are not so bright but you don't do those things, then you don't get stomped out as much.
The smarter ones win  |
Can someone say...
Pretentious?
Seriously though, why would you even say something like this?
And I don't see why the big bang has to involve god at all, why can't it just have happened? I am perfectly fine with leaving questions unanswered.
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Re: What proof do you want? And in turn, what proof do you have? -
April 2nd 2009, 12:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by xHolyValorx
Again... The Evolution Vs. Creation debate is overrated. I'll end that now. Both sides are correct.
Something must be created for something to evolve.
We obviously have proof of evolution, and there couldn't be evolution without some form of creation, therefore, end of subject. Case dismissed.[/size][/font]
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So... there is a tree growing outside my house, &... just because the tree is there that means somebody specifically planted it there?
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Something must be created for something to evolve.
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No. Something must exist for it to evolve, how that something got to be there is another question & does not have a default position of "must have been created".
Cause then you'll eventually get to the "Well who created the creator?" point.
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Re: What proof do you want? And in turn, what proof do you have? -
April 2nd 2009, 12:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThereIsHope
So, a lot of times, when religion is mentioned, especially on TeenHelp, there are people that demand proof at every single debate. And that's not a bad thing, but if I'm arguing for Christianity and you're arguing that there is no god, now it's your turn to prove it. No, I can't prove with scientific facts that God is, indeed, real, but neither can you prove that he's not real.
I've heard that Christians are delusional. I've heard it said that Christians are crazy or insane for praying because it's just them "talking to no one". I've heard brainwashing. Speaking in tongues being of demons. All kinds of things.
Proof? Prove that there is no god. Prove that faith isn't the answer. Prove that you're right and every Christian in the world and I are wrong.
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Faith and hope aren't the answer. If you want something to change, you either actually have yourself do something in order for that to change or everything will pretty much stay the same. You do things to change things.
Lack of evidence to justify your god shows your believes are but well found and blind.
We experience life within the realm of possible/logical/reasonable. Supposedly, anyway. Something that can't have it's way rationalized from creation to what it is at the given moment shouldn't/can't 'be'.
God itself, as a being listenning to everyone's prayers at the same time, watching all and so all knowing, can't 'be'. There's no way you can rationalized such a thing.
We all know why church was first created, and before that, ancient Greek gods etc, and even in ancient Greece they were a refference to human qualities themselves, and occasionally used to explain phenomenons which, at the time, were unexplainable.
Church was a lie to have pedo ministers get rich out of people's ignorance. Their constant fight against the growth science has had throughout the years was to still be able to control people with their crap. Prevent them from listenning to reason or anything other than unfundamented and meaningless book writtings. And well science tore the base of religion appart; yet, many people still defend the existance of god.
You simply don't see how fake it is cuz you chose not to. Cuz it's easier to be ignorant.
You can verify yourself this ignorance and blindness.
One simple over-used question:
-If there's a god, why are there loads of children starving to death all over the world?
''God surely has a bigger plan for them'' or ''Test of faith.'' or whatever excuse they give to get away from the conversation and not think about it at all.
Same as saying ''Cuz, that's why.''
I could explain this starvation issue and, other than pretend I care in order to look good like many do, and like 'good-seeking' religions do, I can just say I couldn't care less about people dying throughout the world. Kinda OT, but by not being religious you get to not pretend to care about things you don't!
Seriously, just by trying to 'explain' your god you are able to transmit how full of crap you are.
And from here, it stops being about religion itself, and about this level of idiocy.
The search for a life meaning has always been present. To justify it in an impossible lie is but a display of ignorance, mainly after that lie's been verified as such several times now.
Sure you may think you need to find a purpose for your existance, but rather admit and accept you don't know than believing in something which lacks arguments to sustain itself.
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Re: What proof do you want? And in turn, what proof do you have? -
April 2nd 2009, 01:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Double X
Can someone say...
Pretentious?
Seriously though, why would you even say something like this?
And I don't see why the big bang has to involve god at all, why can't it just have happened? I am perfectly fine with leaving questions unanswered.
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Because it's true and I chose to say it. Why were you the first person to question it? If it offends you, then too bad. Next time I'll make it more offensive, just for you
The Big Bang doesn't need to involve god in any way, shape or form. However, because much of it is still unknown and what is theorized still is under investigation, creationists tend to use their god as giving a more definitive answer. After all, we cant answer it fully yet but they can so therefore it must involve god, right? Wrong.
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Re: What proof do you want? And in turn, what proof do you have? -
April 2nd 2009, 05:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by YourNightmare
Don't act like you're the only group who gets dirt in their faces. Atheists get quite a lot as well. Trust me, a hell of a lot ram religion down people's throats. I'd go as far as to say the majority does, whether they want to or if it's simply a casual debate and it ends up happening.
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My comment was Christians are guilty of throwing dirt also. Both sides do this. I'm not saying we don't. Anyway, I feel this debate has been beat into the ground.
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Re: What proof do you want? And in turn, what proof do you have? -
April 2nd 2009, 05:04 PM
Big Bang is highly supported over religion.
In the greater cosmic scheme of things, does it really matter?
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Re: What proof do you want? And in turn, what proof do you have? -
April 2nd 2009, 05:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by EDGE
Big Bang is highly supported over religion.
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Well, it has something called... p.. pr..proof... I think?
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Re: What proof do you want? And in turn, what proof do you have? -
April 2nd 2009, 06:29 PM
I'm not gonna argue with you yournightmare cuz frankly we all know the truth wether or not you're religious or not.. I'm just gonna leave it at that.
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Re: What proof do you want? And in turn, what proof do you have? -
April 2nd 2009, 06:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by suniesha
I'm not gonna argue with you yournightmare cuz frankly we all know the truth wether or not you're religious or not.. I'm just gonna leave it at that.
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Actually nobody knows the exact truth. The main difference is that science is trying to explain whereas religion just made up a figure and said they did it
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Re: What proof do you want? And in turn, what proof do you have? -
April 2nd 2009, 06:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pastor_of_youth
It does get frustrating when it appears we get dirt throw in our face for believing but this is what Christ talked about is the world hating us Christians. However, I wonder how many Christians want to cram religion down people's throats so much that we wind up throwing the dirt. I'm definitely not this type of Christian and some people on TH have seen that. |
I don't take anything personally on here, just kidna bulids up constantly, 'cause I gotta deal with it at home, at school, and everywhere but church.
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Re: What proof do you want? And in turn, what proof do you have? -
April 3rd 2009, 12:43 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by YourNightmare
Because it's true and I chose to say it. Why were you the first person to question it? If it offends you, then too bad. Next time I'll make it more offensive, just for you |
It doesn't...but eh. Seems a bit tactless y' know.
And yuck, I think Atheists get more crap than anyone in my town (maybe a mormon or something). It's like if you don't drink alcohol, people are really offended for some reason.
"You don't drink - WHY?!?"
"Your'e an atheist - WHY?!?"
And I get this crap in a little liberal town in Massachusetts, I can't imagine what it's like anywhere else.
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Re: What proof do you want? And in turn, what proof do you have? -
April 3rd 2009, 01:54 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyper Sonic
Actually nobody knows the exact truth. The main difference is that science is trying to explain whereas religion just made up a figure and said they did it
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I mean, Religion does explain jst alot people don't see it. I do but I could be different.
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In that order...
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Re: What proof do you want? And in turn, what proof do you have? -
April 3rd 2009, 02:04 AM
Just a friendly reminder, people...
Let's keep in mind that this website is called, "TEENHelp", which mean that not everyone on this site is taking college level science. It's not nice to call people stupid just because they haven't chosen the educational path you have or yet even reached that point. And just because they haven't, it doesn't mean that you're allowed to call them stupid. If you feel that you're too good or too smart for the debates on this site, maybe you are. Again, the site is called TEENHelp.
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Re: What proof do you want? And in turn, what proof do you have? -
April 3rd 2009, 02:08 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThereIsHope
Just a friendly reminder, people...
Let's keep in mind that this website is called, "TEENHelp", which mean that not everyone on this site is taking college level science. It's not nice to call people stupid just because they haven't chosen the educational path you have or yet even reached that point. And just because they haven't, it doesn't mean that you're allowed to call them stupid. If you feel that you're too good or too smart for the debates on this site, maybe you are. Again, the site is called TEENHelp.
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Nice and to the point. Respect one another on the site.
In the greater cosmic scheme of things, does it really matter?
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Re: What proof do you want? And in turn, what proof do you have? -
April 3rd 2009, 08:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by suniesha
I'm not gonna argue with you yournightmare cuz frankly we all know the truth wether or not you're religious or not.. I'm just gonna leave it at that.
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Do you even realize what you're saying before you type it out?
We all know the truth? We wouldn't be having this thread if we did. Just for the heck of it, what is the truth?
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Re: What proof do you want? And in turn, what proof do you have? -
April 3rd 2009, 09:08 AM
I'm just dying to put in my two cents though it may be a bit off topic. First off as many people have said the burden of proof is not on the atheist. Second, the Bible and what's written in it is exactly why I'm not a Christian. Third and most important, I don't care if God exists or not. If God came down to me and said, "Hey look I exist so follow all of my rules." I'd be like, "No way, now buzz off." That is of course if the typical Christianity rules: no abortions, no birth control, no homosexuality, etc. are the ones he wishes me to follow, because unfortunately I have a brain and I don't deny people their basic rights or discriminate against them for being attracted to someone of the same sex.
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Re: What proof do you want? And in turn, what proof do you have? -
April 3rd 2009, 11:06 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by R.K.
Do you even realize what you're saying before you type it out?
We all know the truth? We wouldn't be having this thread if we did. Just for the heck of it, what is the truth?
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LOL, well, I'm curious as to what this truth is that is independent of one's religion is.
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same same, but different.
Outside, huh?
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Re: What proof do you want? And in turn, what proof do you have? -
April 3rd 2009, 11:54 AM
I'm going back a bit here, to the person who said religion was about obedience. Personally, I believe it depends on how you were raised, as a christian that is. I was raised christian, went to church every sunday, bible class and sunday school. Yes we read from the bible, but it wasn't so much about following god like a puppy, but rather about how to be a good person, and help your fellow man. I'm agnostic now, my scientific side tells me there isn't enough proof for me to believe, but my old christian side says I wish there was.
I don't believe you can prove nor disprove the presence of god, some people 'know' he exists, which is faith in pure, and some can scientifically argue, there is no possible way for him to. Frankly, debates like this will never cease to amaze me, no one is going to get the opposition to budge here, we're all too strongly opinionated. So to end up, I just wanted to put a little note in, perhaps for each side to understand? Atheism is a hard 'religion' for lack of better words. They know there is nothing for them after they die, for stepping into something where you know you just cease to exist, I commend you. For those strong christians, catholics, muslims, etc, etc, your faith will always astound me, for people to believe something so strongly, is amazing, especially in the modern world when so little people do.
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Re: What proof do you want? And in turn, what proof do you have? -
April 3rd 2009, 07:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ghostlyheartbeat
I don't believe you can prove nor disprove the presence of god, some people 'know' he exists, which is faith in pure, and some can scientifically argue, there is no possible way for him to. Frankly, debates like this will never cease to amaze me, no one is going to get the opposition to budge here, we're all too strongly opinionated. So to end up, I just wanted to put a little note in, perhaps for each side to understand? Atheism is a hard 'religion' for lack of better words. They know there is nothing for them after they die, for stepping into something where you know you just cease to exist, I commend you. For those strong christians, catholics, muslims, etc, etc, your faith will always astound me, for people to believe something so strongly, is amazing, especially in the modern world when so little people do.
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I'll have to agree for the most part with this.
Also,
Quote:
Originally Posted by suniesha
I'm not gonna argue with you yournightmare cuz frankly we all know the truth wether or not you're religious or not.. I'm just gonna leave it at that.
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I would like to point out that no one here has a monopoly on the truth. If you're going to be speaking that like, as you alone hold the truth on some pedestal, then you're not exactly welcome in a debate of this nature.
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Re: What proof do you want? And in turn, what proof do you have? -
April 3rd 2009, 11:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by R.K.
Do you even realize what you're saying before you type it out?
We all know the truth? We wouldn't be having this thread if we did. Just for the heck of it, what is the truth?
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No, not really. I know what I mean to say and think I'm typing it correctly then after it's posted I read through it and it sounds harsh and that's not how I want it to be.
Well, we all believe in truth but I think the truth it for this thread is we can agree to disagree and kinda leave it at that.
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Re: What proof do you want? And in turn, what proof do you have? -
April 4th 2009, 12:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by suniesha
Well, we all believe in truth but I think the truth it for this thread is we can agree to disagree and kinda leave it at that.
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No, both sides work completely differently. You are all about faith, I am all about logic, reason, and science. When it comes to the real world, science is usually right.
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Re: What proof do you want? And in turn, what proof do you have? -
April 4th 2009, 12:25 AM
But to you its right. Everybodys different.. I just don't wanna keep arguing about it 'cause its NEVER gonna end.
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Re: What proof do you want? And in turn, what proof do you have? -
April 4th 2009, 12:29 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by suniesha
But to you its right. Everybodys different.. I just don't wanna keep arguing about it 'cause its NEVER gonna end.
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To everyone who looks at the facts science is right. Just like 2+2=4 in base 10 arithmetic.
Scientific experiments are verifiable. In theory I could go to a physics lab and measure the angle of light coming out of water into air as well as different materials and verify Snell's Law. I cannot go to Lourdes and verify for myself that miracles happen
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Re: What proof do you want? And in turn, what proof do you have? -
April 4th 2009, 12:33 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyper Sonic
To everyone who looks at the facts science is right. Just like 2+2=4 in base 10 arithmetic.
Scientific experiments are verifiable. In theory I could go to a physics lab and measure the angle of light coming out of water into air as well as different materials and verify Snell's Law. I cannot go to Lourdes and verify for myself that miracles happen
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It really depends on what you believe and if you believe miracles are able to happen.
I see you're point I guess?
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Re: What proof do you want? And in turn, what proof do you have? -
April 4th 2009, 12:35 AM
Stay on topic. I want someone to try and prove God doesn't exit.
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Re: What proof do you want? And in turn, what proof do you have? -
April 4th 2009, 12:36 AM
My point is that science is verifiable and religion is not
had enough of fighting a losing battle Holly?
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Re: What proof do you want? And in turn, what proof do you have? -
April 4th 2009, 12:45 AM
You can't prove god doesn't exist...
In the greater cosmic scheme of things, does it really matter?
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Re: What proof do you want? And in turn, what proof do you have? -
April 4th 2009, 12:47 AM
My solution is those of us who believe the book of Revelation already know what's coming.
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Re: What proof do you want? And in turn, what proof do you have? -
April 4th 2009, 12:50 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pastor_of_youth
My solution is those of us who believe the book of Revelation already know what's coming.
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What's coming?
In the greater cosmic scheme of things, does it really matter?
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Re: What proof do you want? And in turn, what proof do you have? -
April 4th 2009, 12:51 AM
Revelation talks about a lot around the end of time. Looking at the way the world is today I'd say we're getting closer and closer.
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Re: What proof do you want? And in turn, what proof do you have? -
April 4th 2009, 12:52 AM
So people who don't believe you are doomed? Very open minded 
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Re: What proof do you want? And in turn, what proof do you have? -
April 4th 2009, 12:54 AM
OMG didn't Nostradamus do the same? Oh how about merlin? On and on about end of days!!!
In the greater cosmic scheme of things, does it really matter?
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Re: What proof do you want? And in turn, what proof do you have? -
April 4th 2009, 12:59 AM
Meh I hold the same view of Revelations as Thomas Jefferson: "merely the ravings of a maniac, no more worthy nor capable of explanation than the incoherences of our own nightly dreams."
I can't say that revelations should be universally accepted by Christians without question due to the amount of times it's been shoved into the Antilegomena by intelligent Christians and other denominations.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pastor_of_youth
Revelation talks about a lot around the end of time. Looking at the way the world is today I'd say we're getting closer and closer.
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I can't say the events of revelations are any more likely to happen these days, if by saying that you mean the world is evil and therefore will soon be judged then that's ridiculous. The world is FAR less evil than it has been in the past and people who believe otherwise are just in a state of mild hysteria from the over dramatic doomsday-style news media. Or do you mean events match up recently, in which case I also disagree. 
And why are religious people still saying "yeah prove God doesn't exist lalalalalala" when we don't need to, if you can't prove something exists the only logical position to adopt is disbelief. I think that's been explained by about 15 different people in 15 different ways throughout the whole of this thread. Yes, I realise religion is not logical, and that gap of logic is where faith comes in but without free will the idea that a compassionate God is going to punish me for beliefs that I hold no control over is ridiculous.
Last edited by Jack; April 4th 2009 at 01:11 AM.
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Re: What proof do you want? And in turn, what proof do you have? -
April 4th 2009, 01:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by suniesha
But to you its right. Everybodys different.. I just don't wanna keep arguing about it 'cause its NEVER gonna end.
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So would you say that Christian Scientists that refuse to give their kids medicine and end up killing them are right? Or do you think that doctors (that use logic, science, etc) who take custody of their kids are right?
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Re: What proof do you want? And in turn, what proof do you have? -
April 4th 2009, 01:11 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by xHolyValorx
Stay on topic. I want someone to try and prove God doesn't exit.
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You first have to prove that God does exist. That is how science works in general. I would be banished from all scientific circles if I made up evidence to show that something exists. That is how science works in order to make sure that people don't get away with making up bs. You can make a hypothesis about something but you cannot say it is a theory, you cannot say that it is "true". You first need empirical evidence to back your hypothesis.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pastor_of_youth
Revelation talks about a lot around the end of time. Looking at the way the world is today I'd say we're getting closer and closer.
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You do realize that Bin Laden believes that too?
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Re: What proof do you want? And in turn, what proof do you have? -
April 4th 2009, 01:42 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by suniesha
No, not really. I know what I mean to say and think I'm typing it correctly then after it's posted I read through it and it sounds harsh and that's not how I want it to be.
Well, we all believe in truth but I think the truth it for this thread is we can agree to disagree and kinda leave it at that.
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LOL... love the honesty from you LOL. OK, well, this is going off-topic but there is an edit button so you can edit your post after posting it.
*sigh*, when you say "all", I hope you're not including anyone in science. Science is about logic, testing, proofs, theories, hypotheses and laws. There is no "truth" simply because nothing in science is 100%, therefore, nothing can be a "truth".
Holy, how do you plan to do that, when science cannot prove something that is a proofless belief? The bible even states in 1 part that the writers or jesus didn't see god with their own eyes: " Whom no man hath seen nor can see." (1 Timothy 6:16) and "No man hath seen God at any time" (John 1:18). Granted, you can find some bible quotes that say god does exist, or you can dance around these quotes. Either way, how do you plan to prove god's existence, when the very book you're supposed to follow is uncertain? If it were certain, neither of these quotes would exist. Does this mean that he does not exist? Well, according to the bible, no. The bible is inconclusive, meaning you cannot prove, cannot disprove.
But, in order to tell someone to prove that something does not exist, you first have to prove that it does. Otherwise, if you cannot, then how can you expect someone to prove that it does not exist when you cannot account for it in the first place? Unfortunately, when you say "proof", this is implying objective and empirical information, therefore, no ambiguous bible quotes (cannot use the word of god to prove god exists, that's circular reasoning, begging the question because your conclusion is the premise for your argument).
So, Holy, and others who wish for god to be disproven, you must objectively prove that god exists in the first place. Failing to do so means there's no reason, no basis for someone to prove it doesn't exist.
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CPT-1 Phlebotomist
Outside, huh?
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Re: What proof do you want? And in turn, what proof do you have? -
April 4th 2009, 01:52 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyper Sonic
My point is that science is verifiable and religion is not
had enough of fighting a losing battle Holly?
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Wow. I'm sorry to hear that you think this is a battle. And what's the reward?
Going to hold my tongue. 
Geek? Nerd? More like intellectual badass.
"You ran through Africa, and Asia, and Indonesia.. And now I've found you, and I love you. I want to know your name."
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Re: What proof do you want? And in turn, what proof do you have? -
April 4th 2009, 07:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by xHolyValorx
Stay on topic. I want someone to try and prove God doesn't exit.
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That won't be happening, please refer Jack's to post:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack
It doesn't make sense as it's the side that is saying that something exists who need to provide the proof. The default position if you cannot prove something exists is disbelief. The only way to prove something does not exist is lack of proof that it does exist, it's is a logical paradox to say "prove this doesn't exist".
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Jack is correct, the default position is that something that cannot be proven, does not exist. Burden of proof lies with the person making the claim, as it is impossible to prove that there isn't an invisible teapot revolving around the sun. (See Bertrand Russell's Teapot Theory)
Anyone here who has the ability to even make half an attempt knows better than to try as:
1. It is a logical fallacy.
2. Burden of proof lies with whomever makes the claim.
Your life is yours alone, rise up and live it.
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Don't give up, turn to JESUS!!
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Re: What proof do you want? And in turn, what proof do you have? -
April 4th 2009, 08:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gram Negative
So would you say that Christian Scientists that refuse to give their kids medicine and end up killing them are right? Or do you think that doctors (that use logic, science, etc) who take custody of their kids are right?
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You're going to turn it around if I answer, 'cause you wanna prove a point. And guess what I'm not dealing with this today.. So whatever.
2nd cor. 5:13 GREAT HOPE COMES FROM FAITH IN GOD!!!!
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Re: What proof do you want? And in turn, what proof do you have? -
April 4th 2009, 08:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by suniesha
You're going to turn it around if I answer, 'cause you wanna prove a point. And guess what I'm not dealing with this today.. So whatever.
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Then WHY DO YOU EVEN REPLY?? Is it just me, or are half of your "response" posts - "Well I don't feel like it! Oh you're just mean! Oh you won't consider my beliefs or are ridiculing them! Let's just drop it! I don't feel like it. Or I'm busy! Or well we disagree so let's drop all of this, it's pointless"
Quote:
Originally Posted by suniesha 
No, not really. I know what I mean to say and think I'm typing it correctly then after it's posted I read through it and it sounds harsh and that's not how I want it to be.
Well, we all believe in truth but I think the truth it for this thread is we can agree to disagree and kinda leave it at that.
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Right... because one side is making supernatural untestable claims about invisible Magic men in the skies & then going "You can't prove it doesn't exist! So check mate!"
The definition of this Thing we are supposed to prove is so vague & also untestable. Before it was "God is making storms/throwing lightning & sitting in the clouds" (& etc claims, that were actually testable... at least to us now & guess what? No magic man there!)
Then the claims about God start moving further & further as more & more things are explained through naturalistic means & do not require some divine intervention to happen. The so called God of the gaps: we don't know smth - thus "GODDIDIT"!
These gaps of lack of knowledge are constantly being filled & less & less space is left for the supernatural.
Last edited by R.K.; April 4th 2009 at 09:02 PM.
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