btw, just thought I'd bounce this off you - when it comes to debating religion, people seem to naturally commit fallacies, but I just ran across one of the worst attempts at proving God exists.

It's generally accepted (though actually not proven, but it doesn't really have to be) that X != (!X). That is, that if something's true, it can't be false. For example, if you say the cat lies on the table, it can't also lie on the bench.

Now it's obvious from observation that this logical rule holds, therefore God exists, for without God this logic could not hold. QED.



No, I can't make heads or tail of it either...

I don't actually know much about him, I just studied some of his poems for my exams
But yeah that was the poem I was thinking about...

*my internet has gone a bit weird - it keeps repeating post *

You might be referring to the coffin one? "4 foot, a foot for every year"?

yeah, Heaney isn't exactly a favourite over here

I still got his surname wrong
I was referring to a different poem - I'll look for it later.
But yeah the digging one was about his livelihood as a poet and comparing it to his forefathers work of digging.

Heaney? Oh dear... The poetry intellectual... Was Digging really about when his brother died? I thought he was just trying to justify his livelihood!

Never mind I just remembered - Seamus Healy
Oh dear I'm terrible

Thank you for the awesome poems
'Wounds' was my favourite - I tried saying it with an accent - but it got worse as I went along

Actually that reminds; what is the name of that famous Irish poet who did the poem 'digging' and that one about when his brother died?
His name sounds something like Shamely Hearley - OK that was very embarrassing

Definitely education is the key, specifically the realisation that the "enemy" has similar fears and wishes to one's own. Actually I was recently listening to an interview with one of the Loyalist paramilitaries and, when asked what it was that made him leave violence behind and start campaigning on the side of the Catholics, he said it was the first time he actually talked to one of them. The hall of mirrors that supports conflict can only exist so long as both sides are divided - unite them and the illusion crumbles.

In the case of the crusades, the division was massive because of the lack of knowledge about each others' culture, as well as the massive physical divide (the idea of embarking on a year-long journey simply to reach the country you'll be fighting in entirely bizarre!). Nowadays it's harder to keep up the illusion, thanks to communication technology, so I can only see two ways in which people can stay deluded - either they lack the willpower to actually check their beliefs, or they are indoctrinated from a young age. In both cases you can only really challenge their opinions and make it clear they don't have a leg to stand on - luckily that's pretty easy now.

It's seems I officially own your VM board

Back to what you said - I agree totally. People always need a scape-goat.
And sectarian conflict is always exploited - there's always someone who profits from such things -and would rather they continued. It's easy to add fuel to the fire - especially when there's lot's on embers from past fires. OK maybe I went a bit err But that's what it always seem to be like - I mean people are still calling this a clash of civilisations and the use words such as crusaders + crusade + Jihad. This seems to also be the case in other conflicts. Don't people ever forgive - even generations after? I think education is vital to solve these things out -otherwise history will only repeat itself. People defiantly still haven't improved on this.
However I doubt we'll ever have wars like the crusades or like the great world wars - though I may be proven wrong. Conflict has become much more complex - modern warfare is most definitely a new kind of beast. These complex global conflicts are all getting a bit blurred, people in my eyes seem to be exploiting this.

About Michael Longley - I've heard of him before but never read anything by him. Any suggestions for his work?