[Lugez]

I know someone else replied, but I have somewhat different answers. Sorry, not around comp too much on weekends.

Originally Posted by TheNumber42

Science and government both have very real tangible benefits.

I could list all of the scientific discoveries and innovations that are beneficial to human quality of life, but I don't think either of us have time for a list that long.

You could also make just as long a list that has degraded human life and caused suffering. And I actually disagree that government offers tangible benefits. Is it more tangible than religion? Sure, but it's not much better. We had Obama yelling around "Change" and people took that at face value with no cause behind it. It's a minor example, but I'm sure we can find points in history where government promised benefits that just weren't possible and people ate it all up.

In addition to what mIssing.n0 said (science isn't exactly an innocent pure puppy), people often forget that science and society often get intertwined. It's very uncommon for the two entities to be completely separate. In an perfect world, science would be completely separate, but it isn't here. We try to find things in science that justifies our way of life (eugenics and racism come to mind). It's very easy to forget who is behind the science that is done.

I'm not sure if I'm clear with this or if I wrote it the best way, but it's a bit hard to explain.

Originally Posted by TheNumber42

Government provides order and structure for society. Do most governments have a variety of flaws? Of course. But I don't think you actually believe anarchy would be better?

Anarchy wouldn't be better. I agree.

Originally Posted by TheNumber42

Political ideologies vary widely and many of them don't have any great benefit, but that's not really what this topic is about.

I'm drawing a comparison between religion and political ideologies. While they're not exactly the same, there are certainly many similarities.

Originally Posted by TheNumber42

I'm curious if you could point out a specific example where religion helped a 'great person' to achieve their goals in a way they couldn't have done through secular means.

The point isn't that it couldn't have been done another way. The person chose that way and it resulted with astonishing results. If the person had unrealistic goals behind their actions, does it make their work any less legitimate? I don't think so (MLK, Ghandi, Newton to name a few).

Originally Posted by TheNumber42

Westboro Baptist Church and Scientology are both great examples of why religion is a bad thing, but far from the only ones.

Just like there are some political ideas that are quite questionable, religion has it's sects that are pretty douche-y.

Originally Posted by TheNumber42

Many of the unwanted children are brought into a world where no one wants them because religion is also convinced that abortion is evil. Seems to me that bringing someone into a world where they aren't even wanted is pretty cruel.

I think killing off a life before he/she is even given the chance to live is pretty cruel too. But, this isn't an abortion debate...

Originally Posted by TheNumber42

Let's start with archaic bigotry. Here in America we have conservative Christians who demonize gays and do everything they can to deny them equal rights. Or there is the lack of womens' rights in most Muslim countries.

Then there is the negative effect religion has on education. At least here in America, religious conservatives prevent many kids from getting a proper sexual education. This often leads to unwanted pregnancies since a lot of kids aren't up for listening to the 'abstinence only' junk that is preached at them.And, yes, religion is not the only one at fault for prejudice and stupidity, but it is a large part of the problem. Just because it isn't the only one at fault doesn't absolve it of any responsibility for the problems it causes.

Is religion part of the problem? Absolutely. A large part? Not any worse than other aspects of society that cause harm, in my opinion. Remember recently those kids that sang for Obama? Using kids to produce political propaganda is pretty questionable, and that isn't religious. Even now, I also take classes that spout extreme political nonsense, but at least I see through it.

Also take into consideration not just religion, but the norms that the society abides too. Denying women's rights didn't start with Islam in that area. It's been that way in the area for...Quite a long time. I think people just use their religion to justify thinking in ways that they would be thinking in the first place. Take Christianity, for example. The Bible does have some questionable segments about homosexuality, but it also says we must do unto others as we would do to ourselves. I wonder why they ignore this....

I just think religion gets way too much flak because people often forget about other aspects of society that cause these troubles.

Originally Posted by TheNumber42

Because religion is imaginary and has no tangible benefits, as discussed above. Living up to society's expectations generally does have obvious tangible benefits. Furthermore, society's expectations aren't based on some guy's interpretation of a 2000 year old fairy tale, they are based on what is good for society as a whole. As a member of society, one benefits indirectly from doing things that benefit society.

But it isn't imaginary to them. And I disagree that religion offers no tangible benefits. You're only thinking in a practical way, not an emotional or mental way.

This might be a bad analogy but here we go: Let's think of how a "lucky charm" works in sports. Let's say this hockey player must where this bracelet every match, or he won't play well. The bracelet has strong sentimental value to this guy for whatever reason. He knows if he doesn't wear it, he won't perform optimally. He forgets the bracelet at home one day, and performs horribly....Now, does this bracelet scientifically boost this guy's performance? Probably not, it's just a piece of fabric on his wrist. Logically, how could this piece of fabric boost his performance? In his mind though, he makes the bracelet work. Religion can work in a very similar way, I think.

Originally Posted by TheNumber42

People can have those very same things without religion. At this point in my life, I'm fairly comfortable and mentally stable without religion.

But others like religion and find comfort in it. You don't. It doesn't make you any better them. They chose their own way to find comfort and stability, and I think we all have our own ways, whether rational or irrational. It doesn't matter in the end. To each his own. But if you, or the other person starts shoving ideas down my throat and hurts people over it, then we have problems.

Originally Posted by TheNumber42

Admittedly, my wording may have been a bit strong, but it's really an insane, destructive mindset. If someone told you that they prayed to the tooth fairy everyday, justified their actions based on what the 'tooth fairy told them' and based their happiness and mental stability on how the tooth fairy (in their mind) judged their actions, would you not say they were mentally ill? Religion is no different, it's just more accepted because many people suffer from it.

I would say this person was odd, but as long as he/she worked, paid their bills, didn't hurt anyone, etc I wouldn't change this person. If the tooth fairy really makes them that much happier...Then hey, fuck it. It works for them and I wouldn't ruin the way this person chose to live his/her life.

I think the argument "there are other ways" doesn't fly too much. Why should there be only one way to think? One way to do things? People will find their own ways to live their life. It's not your place to tell them what's the wrong way.