[TheNumber42]

Originally Posted by Lugez

You sure about that? I find their "tangible benefits" are often very questionable much of time. Religion isn't much different in the end.

Science and government both have very real tangible benefits.

I could list all of the scientific discoveries and innovations that are beneficial to human quality of life, but I don't think either of us have time for a list that long.

Government provides order and structure for society. Do most governments have a variety of flaws? Of course. But I don't think you actually believe anarchy would be better?

Political ideologies vary widely and many of them don't have any great benefit, but that's not really what this topic is about.

Originally Posted by Lugez

I wasn't correlating anything, just stating a fact.

Religion wasn't a shortcoming to them. It was a tool they used that helped them achieve what they wanted to achieve. In my eyes: Depending on the person, religion can either be a crutch, or a tool for their success. It's about how you use the belief to achieve your goals.

I'm curious if you could point out a specific example where religion helped a 'great person' to achieve their goals in a way they couldn't have done through secular means.

Originally Posted by Lugez

Going to disagree here. I'll argue that most religious communities aren't the way you're portraying them to be and pretty much everything you said here is false, to an extent. It seems like when people hear "religion," they think of the Westboro Baptist Church, or Scientology, and ignore all the rest.

Yes, religion has a bad side (it is an institution run by people, after all), we can all agree to that. But is it enough to completely abolish it? How prevalent is this "archaic bigotry" that you claim? Religion isn't the only thing that teaches this stuff, you know.

I went to Catholic school until high school, and I sure as hell was never taught to put down others.

Westboro Baptist Church and Scientology are both great examples of why religion is a bad thing, but far from the only ones.

Let's start with archaic bigotry. Here in America we have conservative Christians who demonize gays and do everything they can to deny them equal rights. Or there is the lack of womens' rights in most Muslim countries.

Then there is the negative effect religion has on education. At least here in America, religious conservatives prevent many kids from getting a proper sexual education. This often leads to unwanted pregnancies since a lot of kids aren't up for listening to the 'abstinence only' junk that is preached at them.

Many of the unwanted children are brought into a world where no one wants them because religion is also convinced that abortion is evil. Seems to me that bringing someone into a world where they aren't even wanted is pretty cruel.

I could go one and on about the other problems I see with religion, but I think Fletcher covered most of my other points in his post above.

And, yes, religion is not the only one at fault for prejudice and stupidity, but it is a large part of the problem. Just because it isn't the only one at fault doesn't absolve it of any responsibility for the problems it causes.

Originally Posted by Lugez

And how is society any different? Every single one of us is forced to live up to certain expectations, whether those are religious or societal. One might be more practical, sure, but people do find mental stability and comfort in Religion. So why try to take that away?

Because religion is imaginary and has no tangible benefits, as discussed above. Living up to society's expectations generally does have obvious tangible benefits. Furthermore, society's expectations aren't based on some guy's interpretation of a 2000 year old fairy tale, they are based on what is good for society as a whole. As a member of society, one benefits indirectly from doing things that benefit society.

People can have those very same things without religion. At this point in my life, I'm fairly comfortable and mentally stable without religion.

Originally Posted by Lugez

And you honestly put religious people on the same level as the mentally ill? If that's all it takes to be mentally ill, then get ready to get a great majority of our population some help.

I'm tired of people saying "this" is right, or "that" is normal and anyone who disagrees needs to be helped (this leads to very questionable thinking). Maybe the person doesn't want help because they don't need it. They live their lives just great with their own beliefs.

Admittedly, my wording may have been a bit strong, but it's really an insane, destructive mindset. If someone told you that they prayed to the tooth fairy everyday, justified their actions based on what the 'tooth fairy told them' and based their happiness and mental stability on how the tooth fairy (in their mind) judged their actions, would you not say they were mentally ill? Religion is no different, it's just more accepted because many people suffer from it.

Originally Posted by Lugez

I also want to note that I believe people do throw around their religious affiliations too freely at times. Someone may "claim" to be Christian, but doesn't do anything a Christian should do and completely disregards what Jesus taught. I've met Atheists who are better Christians.

I agree.