[InSovietRussiaORGASMGotU]

Originally Posted by onion

Yes my first sentence is redundant. It's imposing the same question the author of this thread asked, because their question is also redundant. If you read my passages, God said He made the foolishness of the world, the wise of the world. And because people seek earthly wisdom, they reject God. The other passages warn us of science, and the folly of man's ways. Look. I am not here to argue. So This WILL be my last post, just to clarify somethings up; not to impose more arguments.

Then it seems rather pointless for you to make such a long post if this will be your last. But I see that you did continue to post anyways don't you, haha.

And just to clarify for you, those aren't your passages. Those are passages from the bible that you've copied and pasted.

Originally Posted by onion

Let me clarify: I was saying, anything that I say in word's cannot change your mind on God. The Bible and God are the only people who can change anyone's mind.

So if you quote some passages from the bible, then that isn't anything that is able to change someone's mind? That doesn't make any sense, now does it? You're essentially saying A can change your mind but if I take many parts of A then that doesn't change your mind at all. If that is so, then that begs the question, can A change one's mind in the first place?

Originally Posted by onion

The Bible is "sharper than any two edged sword".

Do you have any reasoning for that?

Originally Posted by onion

But in the same token, believing in God is a process having faith isn't something that is one day there. So by "planting" the seed of God's word into the people who read it, God will use it to grow in them, and maybe one day they will come to Salvation. I have no mean's to convert people, only offer what I feel is truth, and if anyone becomes saved, I would like to pray for them so they aren't tempted to stray from God. My argument of nothing I say will change your mind stands firm because I can say something to plant the seed but ultimately God will change it, and the reason I can't change your mind is because I am not a credible source, but the Bible is because it has been around for a long period of time, but ultimately takes faith to believe it.

Wait... did you actually say that the bible is a reliable and valid source? In terms of reliability and validity, as much as you may hate to hear it, it's one of the worst. The bible is by no means a credible source.

Originally Posted by onion

Much like science takes faith in human observations in order to believe it and because I have little faith in humans, science does not have many credible sources in my eyes.

So if the bible was written by humans and since you have little faith in humans, then you must have little faith in the bible. You cannot say that the bible was written by humans, you have little faith in humans therefore you have little faith in something humans do (i.e. science) but somehow have high faith in something that humans have written (i.e. the bible). You've managed to make an argument that goes against yourself, good job on that one, haha.

Originally Posted by onion

Let me say, I find it funny that a few of you argue that the Bible has no power to change anyone's mind. If this isn't the truth than religion is worthless, the millions of people in any religion wouldn't need their Bible, Koran, or whatever it is they study, and could find their religion on their own without their Bible. If you have attended and known people who were "deep in sin" and showed them passages in the Bible, and watch their lives completely change, I think you would agree with me on the fact that the Bible has a divine power.

Not really. All they would have done was simply change their lives as a result of believing in a certain religion. It's quite possible that in doing so they would have never read the all the bible. However, I find it incredibly hard to believe that you can show someone a few passages and just with a snap of the fingers, presto, their life changes. If that were true, then I could show them some other random religious book and presto, their life changes. If that is true, then you've found a sucker, keep a list of them.

Originally Posted by onion

Truthfully I am a testimony to that because I was deep in sin and the Bible completely turned my life around. If the Bible doesn't change mind's then this whole argument is pointless and you would have people like Richard Dawkins writing books to influence minds of others away from religion.

Don't put words in people's mouths especially if you have very little knowledge of that person.

Originally Posted by onion

People wouldn't be so offended over the Bible and it's teachings. Simply put, if the Bible doesn't effect anyone's life then why is it such a big deal for you to repute it? If it has no effect or affect, on anyone's life, then please by all means, stop arguing with me, because you know that what I am saying will not effect anyone including you or myself.

Then apparently you fail to realize the reason for debates. It's not simply to refute the bible. It's to engage one's mind, help them possibly change their views, become more philosophical, etc... . It's not simply about refuting one side. If that is what you think these debates are always about, then it shows you apparently don't understand the reasons why people engage in these debates, yet despite you not understanding that, you continue to assume you do understand something about the debates and their debaters.

Originally Posted by onion

I never said the core purpose of the bible changed, I said the core meaning of it never has. Science is always finding out new observations, and new things that they once believed to be false. The Bible's beliefs, verses, etc, have NEVER changed their meaning. Irregardless of what people deem to be contradictions in the Bible, it has always stayed the same.

Yes, science does make new discoveries, however, does the meaning of science change? No. Does the purpose of science change? No. The core purpose and philosophy of science remains the same.

Originally Posted by onion

As I've stated Science and Religion both take faith. As I've quoted the Bible states that the foolishness of man has become the wisdom of the world, and the foolishness of God is much wiser than the wisdom of the world.

Excellent, you're quoting the side you support in order to support your side. Poor debating tactics. It's called the bare assertion fallacy among other logic fallacies you're committing.

Originally Posted by onion

Therefore you say that one is blind faith and the other is faith. I'm assuming you consider science faith; and religion blind faith. Well I guess that's all a matter of opinion. Is putting your faith in the wisdom of man or the wisdom of God more foolish? Consider the verse I mentioned I'd say I'd rather put my faith in the wisdom of God.

This is even more laughable. Not only are you now quoting texts from your side to support your side but now you're being biased and using your biases to support your side. You have said already you have little faith in science yet you have strong faith in god, so you simply repeat that all over again. I can say the exact same thing in reverse. Either way, even poorer debate tactic.

Originally Posted by onion

In the end science is all observations of man, and I don't want to know how often man's calculations are wrong. I am not saying that science doesn't provide great technology, and great advances in our world today, but looking at Creationism vs Science, whichever you believe is purely off faith. If this weren't so then the big bang theory wouldn't be starting to get over ruled by a creationist theory by scientist all over. Again this comes back to science changing their core beliefs once again.

No, this comes back to you not understanding science. The core belief of science and the purpose of it have not changed. With advances in technology the philosophy of science remains the same. What good would it be if as technology advanced, the philosophy of science did change? Then science would be fairly worthless as it's constantly changing every minute.

As for the big bang theory, I'm not sure what your argument is.

Originally Posted by onion

I am not trying to disprove you. I am simply asking, if you are athiest, or believe that this life is all we have to live then... Say in the end of the world I am wrong about God, but I lived a happy life serving Him, and others. And I die, to find out that my 80 or so years on earth, was all there was to live. Big deal, right? It won't matter because I am dead, and there's nothing after. I lived a good life, and now I'm gone, everything earthly is gone, and I'm in a grave. Now we turn the tables, in the end you live your 80 years happily serving yourself, in whatever it is you like to do whether that be drinking, hanging out with friends, education, WHATEVER it is you like. And you die, and you find out you were wrong, and God is very much real. Then what? Were you're 80 years happily on earth worth the eternity of hell? It's just a question, I am not trying to disprove anything I am just asking you... what if? I think viewing life on earth 80 years and that is it is a very sad take on this world. But by all means if that's what you believe, well I hope you squeeze all this world has to offer you. And make your time here worth it, whether your wrong or I am wrong.

What you've just mentioned is nice and summed up in Pascal's Wager. Suppose that a god does exist in the end and suppose I don't believe in that god. Well, my time on earth was well spent as I lived it in happiness. However, this then brings up another question. Suppose I lived my life in happiness, would the god really punish me for not believing in him? Suppose I have done little to harm humanity but done much to benefit it. Would the god still condemn me? You're assuming the god will. What basis do you have for this assumption?

The way the question works is, if there is a god, then will that god still punish you for not believing in him/her despite the fact that you lived your life in happiness and peace? Many religious beliefs are about teaching forgiveness, compassion, etc... . If you do all that but you don't believe in the certain god/goddess, then think about it, would the god/goddess really punish you for eternity?

Originally Posted by onion

I never once addressed anyone as an athiest.

Really? So then the quote below was said by someone else who ironically has the username of onion?

Atheist you say believe there is no God

Unfortunately, you did address someone as atheist. Either that or I'm suddenly unable to read properly.

Originally Posted by onion

I am simply stating that in order to be an athiest, you conclude there is no God. Yet to conclude there is no God, you must know everything there is about the world, to come to the SOLID fact that there is no God. You may not believe in God, but either way you do not know for SURE that there is not God.

You do realize that this argument actually works against you right? You don't know for sure that there is a god, you have no solid fact that there is a god. That argument works both ways [IMG]file:///C:/Users/Nick/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image001.gif[/IMG].

Originally Posted by onion

So my example of the one billionth of everything is to show, that it is impossible for one person to know everything, let a lone 1 percent of everything. So if an athiest concludes, "I know there is no God", how can he know that for certain, if there is still 99% of the world to know for sure?

Once again, how can you be sure that there is a god? Your argument works both ways, for and against you.

Originally Posted by onion

It is not saying that we have a One in one billionth chance to know something it is simply saying that, God is one of these topics that by human standards, we will never know truly exists until the end of time, because since GOD is invisible, you cannot conclude FOR A FACT that he does not exist. Yes there are certain things we can conclude for sure, but concludding there is not God, is the same a concludding that in a universe so large that there is no life on another planet. We do not know if there is life on another planet, and we don't know if there is no life on another planet. All we have are theories. Much like it is with God, but if you have Faith in Him there is a sense of knowledge that He does exist. And in MY opinion there are many things in this world that I don't believe science will ever explain, and truthfully in MY eyes can only be concludded by a creator. Take a wrist watch for example, you can look at the complexity of it and conclude that there is a creator. Now look at the human brain, it processes colors, images, temperatures, pressures on your body, the taste in our mouth, the dryness of our mouths, it takes in sounds, and the feelings of different objects. It can process over 1million messages in any given second. It produces feelings, relates us to people, and tells us what actions to take. It sends electric signals between brainwaves that computes all this information. For me, the complexity of a human body is enough evidence for me that God exists, now science can say this is why our body reacts this way when this happens etc, but it cannot explain how it developed every aspect that our body contains, through evolution, and how it all so happened by accident. You can continue believing all you want, whatever you want, but for me... this is just astounding, and it is only ONE part of the human body, not to mention everything else in this world and how if certain species were to disapear off the planets, life would cease to exist. It's all to complex to conclude that it all happened without a creator, and again that is just my opinion.

So that's your argument, it's too complex for it to have developed on its own therefore something else must have made it? It's essentially a way of saying "I don't know what did this so let's attribute it to something/someone else". By that logic, it then serves to say that if something is very simple then it wasn't made by god. After all, your argument is that it's too complex so someone else made it. Well, if something is very simple, then god mustn't have made it.

Originally Posted by onion

You question about God being a judge... it all comes back to the wisdom of the world. Our view of what is right, and what is fair, is far different from a being that had the intelligence just to speak and it came into existence, it wasn't a process, creation was a finished product of God's word's. The repentance we give to God, is a change of life style, we are punished in court in order to correct behavior. When we are not saved, we have already been judged by God into hell. When we repent, we have corrected our behavior. And God views us as SINLESS. He views us just as He viewed Jesus, perfect.

You do realize that in saying this you automatically have said that we are equal to god in power. I think there are a few biblical verses that go against that. But, if we are equal in power in terms of perfection, then why isn't is possible for us to have developed just as god did? After all, he's perfect and he can do it. If you say we're also perfect then surely we can do it.

Originally Posted by onion

We are called to repentance, because man hated God. We sinned against Him, were made to have a relationship to Him, and because Jesus died on the cross we have a responsibilty to put our Faith that Jesus will save us from Hell, by chosing to obey God, so that we can be reconciled back to Him, and have the relationship we were meant to have. As far as the 99% of people being good people. I would disagree. Yes, by earthly standards, they may be genuinely nice, which is why I wish no one to go to Hell. Even people that hate me, I wish they'd come to Salvation. But by saying generally people are good and don't deserve Hell, we deserve Hell because of sin.

You just said we don't deserve hell yet we then do deserve it. Tell me, if we don't deserve hell because of sin then what do we deserve it for? You're flip-flopping back and forth.

Originally Posted by onion

I mean even by earthly standards, open your history books, look how much hate people have in this world. Or read about the crucifiction and beating of Christ, I know you do not believe in God, but Jesus was a man and there is historic proof Jesus was a live and killed, I believe Jesus was God in Human form... you may chose not to believe this, but none the less He existed, and people beat Him and crucified Him, and put Him to death, for CURING people, for HEALING lepers, blind people, and even raising dead people to life. Maybe you chose not to believe these miracles, but eventually Christ claimed to be the Son of God, an Equal to God. Mankind HATED Him for this, I mean just watch the passion of the Christ, if you don't feel like reading about it.

Haha, you're now citing a movie that isn't a documentary yet was someone's interpretation of a belief?

But before you continue with saying how much hate people have, look in your book, your bible. You cannot for a second deny that especially in the Old Testament, god was pretty damn hateful and bloodthirsty.

Originally Posted by onion

You are telling me these are good people? Our sin, your sin, my sin, those people's sin is what crucified and killed that man. He died for EVERYONE, not just those people who crucified Him. And as He hung on the tree, and they put viniger in His cuts, He forgave them. I think your speculation of people being generally good people is far from the truth.

I'm not sure if you're talking to me in particular but nowhere did I say that I view people as being good in nature. But if you were talking to me, then let me tell you my view before you continue putting words into my mouth. I do view people as generally not being good. If someone tells me that they are absolutely good and great, I call them a liar. So now that you know a bit more about my view, you can hopefully put more accurate words into my mouth.

Originally Posted by onion

If that were truth, there would be no wars, there would be no greed, there would be no anger, there would be no jealousy, there wouldn't be people cheating on their wives. Look around you, this world is corrupt.

And you think that your god in your bible is not jealous, isn't angry at times, isn't hateful, etc...?

Originally Posted by onion

I am not preaching. I am offering advice, and explaining why we need forgiveness, and why we need God. And what exactly sin is, and why the world is where it is today. You don't have to read any of that if you chose not to. I am not looking to convert anyone, I just have a general sorrowness for the people who chose to reject a free gift from God, in order to escape Hell. It's very saddening to me. All I do is show what I believe and you just argue it, after saying that the Bible has no influence over lives, because it has no facts. Well then why even argue with me, isn't it a waste of time? I guess I can't expect any different, considering that too is includded in the Bible, and just as Jesus was persecuted so are Christian's for following Him. It's not that I personally am offended, I just feel sorry for you. Again what would you do if you died today and found out God was real? Once you die, God will judge you. There is no turning back and saying, I'm sorry, I believe in you now. Because you had no Faith in Him on earth, He will not be gracious to save you at death. And for that reason I feel bad. Especially for people such as Dawkins.

Once again, if you feel that you have no impact, why do you continue writing posts about it? Why?

Before you play the "I'm saddened" card, perhaps you should take a step back. I'm arguing against your beliefs and guess what you're doing? THE EXACT SAME. So don't pull out that card, you're arguing just in a similar manner as I am.

If god is real, then I ask you yet again, if I live my life in peace, compassion, forgiveness, etc... to the best of my abilities, which ironically enough is what your religion tries to teach, then it makes no sense for god to punish me just because I don't believe in him yet I live my life obeying what he teaches.