[anishift]

Ok, so I'm going to probably just post once here then leave, because this subject actually pisses me off. Haha.
Well, in response to quotes like this:

But if you are Christian, do you not believe what is written in the bible? If you are Christian, it doesn't seem as if you should be able to pick and choose which aspects of the Christian faith you are going to believe. It seems to me that Christians should believe all that is written in the bible, or they're not truly following the word of their God. And it is in fact written in the bible that same sex marriage should not be permitted.

Do YOU not believe what is written in the Bible? You pick and choose every day, you lie, you lust, etc. EVERYONE does. Homosexuality, according to the Christians, is a sin. Just like any other sin. I would imagine that homosexual Christians do believe it's wrong, just like you believe lying is wrong. You do it anyway. It doesn't mean you aren't a Christian. The difference between being a liar and a homosexual is this: You choose to lie. People don't choose to be gay

I have to disagree with that. What about the few words that are said at nearly every marriage? ""For better, for worse; for richer or for poorer; in sickness and in health; to love and to cherish 'til death do us part." No where in the bible do I see "For God created man and woman so that they could fulfill each others economical needs." Do you? If you can find a passage such as that, please do share.

No one needs to find a passage such as that. Marriage isn’t religious anymore. People get married who aren’t Christian all of the time, even people who aren’t religious. So first of all, I don’t care what God said. But second of all, until very recently, (despite what the Bible says) love DIDN’T have to be a part of marriage. In Europe many marriages were arrangements almost like treaties between two countries. Marriage comes along with a lot of benefits, yes it’s about love but marriage isn’t just a piece of paper with some words.

And even if marriage is no longer treated as a Christian sacrament among some, it did originate as a Christian sacrament. Doesn't matter how it is treated nowadays, it still did originate and still is a Christian sacrament. If not for the bible, and it's mentioning of marriage, whose to say marriage would even be heard of? Therefore, you cannot truly say marriage is not truly and will remain a Christian sacrament.

Let’s assume that were true, and that marriage existed ONLY in places where Christianity existed. Even if it were true, just because it originated as a Christian sacrament doesn’t mean it should be treated as one now, because it is NOT anymore. Also, marriage is just a word. If not for the bible, it would certainly still exist.

But unfortunately, everything I just said was hypothetical, because marriage did NOT originate as a Christian sacrament. Before the Europeans came to the Americas, do you think the native Americans were carrying around bibles? NO! Do you honestly believe that marriage was something that only existed in Europe? Marriage predates recorded history, and the native Americans had marriage! “It is highly unlikely that the basic concept of holding a ceremony to commemorate a life partnership began in any one culture.” I couldn’t have said that any better. Come on. Marriage is not a Christian institution, just because it is talked about in an old book does not mean that said old book created it or that it originated in said book. That’s completely wrong.

People may choose to believe that marriage is more so about economics rather than love, but that is not why marriage was originally brought about. Can you truly argue that the biggest part of marriage, is about companionship? Whether someone chooses to enter that commitment they make when they are married because of money, or because of love, the outcome of marriage still remains the same - it is being bonded to another person, whether money is involved or not. You may be marrying for money, but at the same time you are still vowing to love and to cherish the person you are marrying. If not for love, marriage would not hold such an importance to a lot of people.

No one is actually arguing that love is less important than the economic side of marriage. Just that love is not the ONLY reason. Otherwise, no one would really care to get married because then it WOULD just be a piece of paper. But it isn’t. It’s not just about love. But also, you just made a great argument for gay marriage. ^_^

Yet Christian beliefs did have a large affect on how the sacrament of marriage is celebrated, you said so yourself, didn't you? So while what you say is true, how can you disagree that the Christian beliefs haven't had a large affect on the way the sacrament of marriage is celebrated? Christian beliefs and customs play a part in marriage, whether it's a Christian marriage or not.

Sure. But just because they’ve had a large influence doesn’t mean the Christian way is the only way. It only plays a large part because Christianity is a large religion. Doesn’t mean we all have to practice marriage the way the Christians do.

On the subject of civil unions, it’s not the same. They don’t get the same rights, civil unions can’t be performed in all states, and civil unions are not recognized in all states. But that is just the beginning. Refer to previous posts, there are links to why civil unions are not the same as marriages.

Hmm, yet it's expected that Christians change beliefs that they have had for thousand of years in order to accommodate others? It's expected that Christians betray their beliefs that are clearly written in the bible in order to make gays feel more included? While I may not agree with many of the Christian beliefs, I would not be in favor of expecting a whole religion to change some of it's main beliefs and customs so that I could get my way. I'm not saying Christians aren't guilty of this as well, as they should respect what those who are not against gay marriage believe as well. But unfortunately, beliefs of Christians or any other Religions are not always going to be fair towards others. But hey, that's life.

Let me tell you what is expected of Christians. I don’t expect them to change their beliefs, I expect them to respect that not everyone shares their beliefs and not everyone should have to follow them. When Proposition 8 was put to the vote in California, people were standing around with their signs about God and how it’s wrong. What I expect from Christians is to keep their religious beliefs the hell out of their votes, because the Church and the States are supposed to be separated but unfortunately since the majority of people are Christian or some other religion, the vote really came down to religion. According to the religious gay marriage opens the door to people marrying animals. All I have to say to that is WHAT THE F***. Gays are not ANIMALS. So no. Next: It opens the door to old people marrying minors. No, it most certainly does not. Gay marriage doesn’t void the law that says you can’t get married until you are a legal adult. Next: It ruins the sanctity of marriage. Really? How much sanctity can a marriage POSSIBLY have if it is ruined by two people joining in a bond similar to your own, in love and happiness? I’ve got to wonder how much “Godliness” a marriage has if it is going to suffer due to the happiness of others.

This is clearly happening, yet these people deny that their agenda has any plans to infiltrate the church. There are 2000 years of church teachings set in stone, and the gay agenda want to come in and say "let me just cross out this part, delete that, modernize this...and we're good

I think that you are assuming. I think most gays would be happy to just be allowed to get married. The individual gay does not have an “agenda” to make the churches accept them. The media might, but the individuals do not. Also, having gay marriage is not forcing anyone’s views on ANYONE. You don’t have to like it, you don’t have to have any part of it. The views being forced on everyone are those of the religious, who want gay marriage not to happen because “the Bible says so.” And because of someone else’s religion, gays are not allowed to marry. Because of religion. It really all comes down to that. People are refusing to be objective about what gay marriage actually is, and just doing what they think they should because “the Bible says so.”

If gays were being treated as second class citizens, and as terribly as they let on, they would not have any rights whatsoever. I do agree that gays should be allowed to have the same rights as married couples, only as registered couples, but I do not agree that gays should be allowed to participate in the sacrament of marriage in a Christian church, as that is controversial to Christian beliefs.

Second class =/= no rights. Second class = less rights. Once again, you only believe what you believe because of your religion. Marriage is not Christianity’s personal sorority, that is just an arrogant thing to say. Well, my religion doesn’t want it. I’m going to vote to make it law. We’re not saying the Christian church should be forced to marry gays if they don’t want to. Just that gays should be married in the first place.

Then if they are fighting to be married by the state, again, WHY should they care what Christians will not allow in their church!? I would understand this if there were far more Christians who not only refused to marry gays in their churches, but were fighting to make marriage illegal to Christians all together. But most Christians are not fighting to completely outlaw gay marriage, they simply will not permit it in their church.

Most gays DON’T care what the Christians won’t allow in their church. The issue is that Christians are voting against gay marriage just because of their religion. THAT is why they are angry with the Christians (although the Christians are not the only ones against it, just the most outspoken ones) Most Christians I have met ARE fighting to outlaw gay marriage altogether. It’s unfair that people are (mainly) having to follow the Christian beliefs when they are not Christian and neither is the state.

The government makes the laws, not the Christians, am I right?

Not when it comes to the vote (as with Proposition 8) and the majority of the voters are Christian or some other religion that can’t keep it’s nose out of people’s business.

Please, please, PLEASE read what I say before you respond - I already answered this. They don't care about what the hell Christians allow in their precious churches. Churches can do whatever the hell they want within their churches. They only care because a large group of Christians are trying to prevent SECULAR marriages from being legalized, something which the churches have absolutely no right to. Nearly every group opposing gay marriage is Christian - there are very few others fighting it so much. If churches would stay the hell away from secular laws, homosexuals wouldn't care about religious marriages.

Yep.

Exactly. Just as Christians are not going to change their beliefs in order to accommodate homosexuals, because that would be going against not the constitution, but the bible. So therefore, can't you at least understand where Christians are coming from?

Not everyone believes in or has to follow the Bible. Everyone has to follow the law, and Christians are basically forcing the Bible into the law by voting based on religion and not based on real information.

Okay, here's a simple resolution. Why not simply stop whining about others beliefs, and let people believe whatever the heck they want to believe?

Sounds like something I would like to say to Christians and other religious persons. How about THEY stop whining about other people’s beliefs and learn to accept that not everyone has to follow what they believe?

Christians are not trying to deny gays the right to be together, but gays DO NOT have the right to be married, for marriage is a sacrament for a man and a woman.

Wrong. Marriage isn’t always holy, and not everyone is Christian. Marriage isn’t Christian, so I honestly couldn’t care less what the Christian definition of marriage is.

Christians will not allow gays to be married in their church because it is against the word of their God.

They don't have to marry gays in their church. What does that have to do with gays being able to get married? Also, Christians do tons of things that go against the word of their God.

What Christian's believe is not going to change because the gays don't agree.

It doesn’t matter. We don’t care if they change their beliefs, we just expect them to respect that not everyone has to follow them.

I never said your laws weren't valid. But they are only valid IN CANADA.

“The Equal Protection Clause, part of the Fourteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution, provides that "no state shall ... deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws"

But if they do not make the laws, why are so many gays so damn worried that Christians are going to somehow abolish gay marriage?

The majority makes the laws in any vote, and the majority is always religion vs. non-religion. Mainly Christianity. Speaking the case of Proposition 8, the religious (along with a few outliers, but mainly the Christians and other religious persons) DID abolish gay marriage because they were the MAJORITY.

Christians are not going to change their beliefs to benefit gays! If you seem to hate Christians so awfully much, why do you care what they abolish in their church anyways?

We are not talking about hating Christians or what they abolish in their church. Most gays don’t give a DAMN what the Christians abolish in their church. It gets a little bit sticky, though, when the Christians start to abolish things in the state that don’t hurt anyone just because they CAN. Because they have the majority.

Part of having equal rights is to have the right to vote however you feel is best. If you believe that gay marriage should be made illegal, then of course that is how you would cast your vote. If you are saying that Christians should not vote for what they believe, then you are telling them not to believe what they do believe, which in my opinion, is just as bad as Christian's telling you that you cannot marry the same sex. Both sides are guilty of not treating each other as equal, and neither is willing to admit it.

No they aren’t. They are simply saying the Christians should keep their church separate from our government. They are forcing their beliefs on other people. If they can’t be objective about a vote such as Prop 8 maybe they shouldn’t have voted in the first place. But of course, they DO have the right to cast their vote for any reason, or no reason. It’s just that the fact is, marriage is secular. And the Christians, being the majority, are essentially making the votes on gay marriage non-secular.

The minority is being wronged. They aren’t allowed to get married (which, by the way, is not going to affect you personally). Them getting married doesn’t hurt ANYONE, but just because some people don’t like the idea they are choosing to shove that down other people’s throats because the Bible says so. Basically, all it’s doing is not allowing rights. Either way, gays will be together. All you’re doing is denying rights to people that have nothing to do with the church.

and I personally do not believe that ‘majority rules.’

Then why are you okay with the minority (gays) being ruled by the majority (Mainly Christian and other religions) even though them getting married doesn’t actually hurt anyone?

You are WAY off base with your ridiculous hypothetical situations. Freedom of religion is CLEARLY allowed to the people by the Bill of Rights. The right to be homosexual is also in the bill of rights, but it does not ensure them the right to get married in the bill of rights. Since their right to marry is not in the bill of rights, then there has to be a separate law to ensure that, and separate laws are up to the people.

Actually, you are way off base. ”The Equal Protection Clause, part of the Fourteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution, provides that "no state shall ... deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws"

Again, you don't speak for the whole movement when you say "they don't want to change the church". I'm sure there are probably plenty of gays who don't want that to happen. But the politicians, the ones IN CHARGE of the movement, do want this to happen.

The majority of the movement does not want to infiltrate the church. They just want to get married. The ones in charge don’t represent or speak for the whole movement either, their agenda is generally not the agenda of the individual homosexual. That’s like blaming terrorism of the Taliban and/or Al-Qaeda on every person in the Middle East just because the terrorists have so much power (in that they are recognized and given much attention, like politicians with their agendas). Just because they get so much attention doesn’t mean that it what everyone or even the majority is pushing for. They just want to get married.

In California, about 3/4 of marriages end in divorce (I think that was a statistic from 2004, will get back to you on that one). If anything is ruining the sanctity of marriage it is that. Just throwing that out there.

I gotta wonder what people have against others getting equal rights when it doesn’t infringe on their own.

1: There are other routes to take in order to obtain those benefits. And I still don't buy that gays are second class citizens because they don't get certain benefits offered to married couples. To me, second class citizens are the African Americans before the Civil Rights movement. And please don't say that gays today have it as bad as African Americans did back then, it is just demeaning/offensive to those African Americans.

Just because the gays don’t have it as bad as the African Americans did doesn’t mean that they aren’t second class citizens. There are different degrees of second class, but if it isn’t first class, it’s second class. Gays aren’t first class.

I am not claiming to speak for everyone on my side like you do, you guarantee that "no gays want to infiltrate the church", therefor you are trying to speak for your entire side when you CAN'T. Some of them clearly do want to infiltrate the church.

I really don’t see what this has to do with gays being able to have their marriages recognized and made legal by the state. It seems if anyone is getting sidetracked, that person is you.

Well you could have it backwards. Gays and the state are saying that there should be laws allowing them to marry. Thats the state butting in on religion, and there should be a separation right? I'm just saying there is a counter point to yours so it is not really valid.

No it is not. Marriage is not a religious institution.

-Now, who is the hypocrite? Liberalism wants to bring freedom to minorities, in fact they want to give them more freedom than anyone else. They want to give freedom to illegal immigrants who have no business being here while we pick up the tab. And in them giving more freedom than necessary, more than the average American citizen, it takes rights away from regular hard working people.

Gays aren’t illegal immigrants. They aren’t taking jobs or taking rights etc. from people. lol.

So by stopping ridiculous laws, or as you say "stopping freedom", they are actually working to preserve freedom for the average American.

Stopping illegal immigration is not equivalent to stopping gay marriage. Stopping gay marriage isn’t preserving anyone’s freedom.

- It doesn't. I just don't want is to spread through society. I don't want the gay agenda to work it's way into schools and everyday life. And gay marriage is a step in that direction.

As you have already said, there are politicians with an agenda, you will be hard-pressed to find gays with an “agenda” to change churches and schools. Besides, kids are ALREADY being taught about gays in school. For one thing, marriage isn’t really talked about in school in the first place. (I can’t remember a single time when a teacher taught about marriage.) Second of all, if a kid is going to public school the parent has to accept that through some teachers who don’t folllow the rules or by other kids, their children WILL learn about gays. However, you will mostly find that teachers don’t really talk about these things anyway. Gays getting married doesn’t mean all of the sudden teachers are going to start talking about marriage when they didn’t before. So they can send their kids to a private school, or risk them being corrupted by the real world. The real world has gay people in it and whether they believe in it or not, it’s something that they are going to know about if they go to a public school because in a public school there are lots of kids who come from families with differing beliefs etc. If parents are that worried about their kids learning things in school, maybe they should just homeschool them because if they are going to learn that being gay is right from ANYONE it will be from their peers, not their teachers.

Gay couples already have equal LEGAL rights under domestic partnership and civil union. That is what law should and can do. Civil Unions allow gays to receive the same health benefits and tax breaks married people get.

No they do not have equal legal rights. Domestic partnerships and civil unions are not the same as marriage.

I’m done now. ok. lol. The point is this type of thing shouldn’t be brought to the vote, because people will of course be swayed by their religion, (which is understandable) and the fact is that their religion doesn’t always allow equality. It’s a matter of equality and equal treatment under the law (Guaranteed by the Equal Protection Clause in the 14th Amendment. Equality shouldn’t be something people get to vote on. It should be absolute. Gays getting married doesn’t infringe on anyone’s rights and let’s be honest, if kids go to a private school they won’t learn about gays from their teachers. If they go to a public school then they still most likely won’t be taught about gays by their teachers, but will most likely learn about such things from their peers. Teachers really try to steer clear of these subjects. Even so, saying that “Sometimes people are attracted to others who are the same gender” isn’t really for or against gays, so it isn’t contradicting any beliefs that parents might give to their children, it is something they will inevitably learn about in the real world anyway. Enough about agendas. People will ALWAYS have agendas, straight, gay, whatever. Just because SOME politicians and a few gays have an agenda to infiltrate the church doesn’t mean they shouldn’t be allowed to get married. This is tiring, lol. Sorry if I offended anyone. I truly do not mean to do that and if I did then surely you should let me know.