[Xujhan]

Originally Posted by Annoni

I find it convenient that you brought up the parent/child argument, because it's actually further reason to believe that the traditional Christian god is less than praiseworthy. Some of the primary tenets of parenting go as follows: Your children owe you nothing. It was your choice to bring them into this world, and it is therefore your responsibility to care for them until they are capable of caring for themselves. At that point it becomes your duty to allow them to make their own choices, even if you disagree with them. You cannot make demands of your grown children as repayment for the effort you put in raising them. Anything they choose to give you should be given freely out of love, not out of obligation.

Love is what God looks for. And I'm not looking for the views of the world, quite honestly those are easily tainted by sin. A child should acknowledge the wonderful life that God has graciously given, and the gift of Heaven He gives with mercy after.

"God is god, therefore he gets a free ride"? No, I don't buy that. I acknowledge that I have a good life, yes. I also acknowledge that millions of people do not have good lives, that billions throughout history have not, and if Christianity is to be believed, that many of them continue to suffer now in hell, even those now born many hundreds of years ago. I am aware of plenty of good reasons for earthly suffering, and I don't deny their validity, but eternal suffering is another matter.

Originally Posted by Annoni

So a god who demands that we follow his laws, regardless of our feelings, and who demands that we worship him and ask his forgiveness for our sins - besides being simply vain and jealous - fails some of the basic tests of parenthood. God has no more right to condemn someone to hell for faithlessness than the father in your example would have to beat his daughter for her actions. If you wish to argue that god is perfect and cannot be wrong, then perhaps the father should follow god's example and beat his daughter. Wouldn't it then be those parents who choose not to abuse the children who are being "sinful"? How absurd or destructive would god's demands have to get before you think we should begin to question him?

Hold up. You're portraying God with a strong flavor of Satan.
God does not demand that we follow, He asks and certainly gives us a whole list of reasons why, any one of which I would not hesitate for. God has supreme rights for anything - everything was created through him and for him and by him.
And do not compare God as the father that would beat for wrong actions. He is a loving Father, and does not wish harm upon His children, it is Satan that tears people apart. It is Satan that ravages heart, soul, and physical being. And it is a person's choice to allow that to happen, Jesus's price for sin was already paid, all we have to do is accept it with our hearts.

I'm portraying god that way because that is how I see him; or at least the Christian interpretation we're debating. There is a phrase that states that "we are guilty of all the good we could have done but did not do." Just because god is not the direct cause of eternal suffering doesn't mean he is not still guilty of allowing it to exist. God created Lucifer, for one. He wrote the rules, for another.

If he is actually powerless to prevent this; if he cannot destroy or overpower Satan, if he cannot choose to forgive everyone of their sins, not just the repentant, if he truly cannot exist with sin, then perhaps he could reveal himself to the world so that people can know he exists and be warned that he is incapable of protecting us. There are many ways god could prevent eternal suffering. Unless he is totally powerless, he is choosing to allow this cycle to continue, and he is thus guilty of it. If he is that powerless, I think it would be better that humanity try to fend for itself in the afterlife than continue to rely on such a meager god.

Originally Posted by Annoni

My belief is that we should question everything. That way we learn and grow. I'm not willing to blindly accept any god or religion, nor do I think anyone else should. I think there are too many reasons to doubt god's perfection to willingly hand him the devotion he seeks. In a way, it's Pascal's wager in reverse. If god is truly loving, then he will forgive your lack of belief. If god is not willing to forgive such a minor fault - that of simply having guessed wrong on a yes or no question - then he is a vain, spiteful god, and the correct moral choice is to defy him. That's how I see things.

Question everything, yes. Without question there would be almost no understanding, but do not question so much as to have no room for faith which God asks for. We shouldn't blindly accept any god or religion, that is true, and it is not asked of us to do it blindly. Pascal's Wager... I have problems with that, but I think most people can gather that.
Such a minor fault? A yes or no? This is a lifestyle that we're talking about! This determines what happens after life too! It is not simply a yes or no question and should not be taken lightly as such. God is forgiving, but if you refused salvation and choose to dwell in sin, you cannot dwell with God because sin is detestable to Him. You've gotten God very mixed up with Satan in some ways, and I can see why you would want to defy Him in that case.

It all stems from a single question: does god exist? Yes or no. If you believe no, as I do, this entire debate is nothing more than hypothesizing. If you do believe, then complications of faith ensue, but for those who believe god doesn't exist, the matter is entirely simple. And no matter how much good they do in the world, god will condemn them to hell for their lack of belief, and from that a lack of repentance.

And speaking of which, why is sin so detestable to god? I'm only human, and I'm capable of forgiving someone even if they don't apologize for hurting me. Surely god is capable of at least that. God seems to be of assuming a stance of "well, if you don't want to apologize that's too damn bad for you, you can burn in hell." No person who spoke those words, or anything like them, would be considered enlightened. Why is god allowed this without question?

For that matter, why are we required to repent in the first place? I'm aware of having hurt people in my life, both directly and indirectly. I avoid it as much as I can, and I apologize and regret when I do cause harm. But I've caused no harm to god, except perhaps his pride. And if it's that easily wounded, he could stand to have it taken down a peg or two. But repenting simply because I'm not perfect? Hell no. If god had wanted us to be perfect, or perfect sheep, he should have made us that way. I feel no need to apologize for who I am, to anyone. Nor should any other person feel the need to.

Heh, apparently I start to speak with an edge when I get going on this topic. Sorry, I don't mean to offend anyone; as I've stated often I have no issues with people because of their beliefs. It's simply the concept of god that upsets me. I'm an idealist, and I've yet to run into a religious portrayal of god that I can look at and think: "Yeah, if that god exists I think I'd be pretty okay with it."