[Annoni]

Originally Posted by Xujhan

I find it convenient that you brought up the parent/child argument, because it's actually further reason to believe that the traditional Christian god is less than praiseworthy. Some of the primary tenets of parenting go as follows: Your children owe you nothing. It was your choice to bring them into this world, and it is therefore your responsibility to care for them until they are capable of caring for themselves. At that point it becomes your duty to allow them to make their own choices, even if you disagree with them. You cannot make demands of your grown children as repayment for the effort you put in raising them. Anything they choose to give you should be given freely out of love, not out of obligation.

Love is what God looks for. And I'm not looking for the views of the world, quite honestly those are easily tainted by sin. A child should acknowledge the wonderful life that God has graciously given, and the gift of Heaven He gives with mercy after.

So a god who demands that we follow his laws, regardless of our feelings, and who demands that we worship him and ask his forgiveness for our sins - besides being simply vain and jealous - fails some of the basic tests of parenthood. God has no more right to condemn someone to hell for faithlessness than the father in your example would have to beat his daughter for her actions. If you wish to argue that god is perfect and cannot be wrong, then perhaps the father should follow god's example and beat his daughter. Wouldn't it then be those parents who choose not to abuse the children who are being "sinful"? How absurd or destructive would god's demands have to get before you think we should begin to question him?

Hold up. You're portraying God with a strong flavor of Satan.
God does not demand that we follow, He asks and certainly gives us a whole list of reasons why, any one of which I would not hesitate for. God has supreme rights for anything - everything was created through him and for him and by him.
And do not compare God as the father that would beat for wrong actions. He is a loving Father, and does not wish harm upon His children, it is Satan that tears people apart. It is Satan that ravages heart, soul, and physical being. And it is a person's choice to allow that to happen, Jesus's price for sin was already paid, all we have to do is accept it with our hearts.

My belief is that we should question everything. That way we learn and grow. I'm not willing to blindly accept any god or religion, nor do I think anyone else should. I think there are too many reasons to doubt god's perfection to willingly hand him the devotion he seeks. In a way, it's Pascal's wager in reverse. If god is truly loving, then he will forgive your lack of belief. If god is not willing to forgive such a minor fault - that of simply having guessed wrong on a yes or no question - then he is a vain, spiteful god, and the correct moral choice is to defy him. That's how I see things.

Question everything, yes. Without question there would be almost no understanding, but do not question so much as to have no room for faith which God asks for. We shouldn't blindly accept any god or religion, that is true, and it is not asked of us to do it blindly. Pascal's Wager... I have problems with that, but I think most people can gather that.
Such a minor fault? A yes or no? This is a lifestyle that we're talking about! This determines what happens after life too! It is not simply a yes or no question and should not be taken lightly as such. God is forgiving, but if you refused salvation and choose to dwell in sin, you cannot dwell with God because sin is detestable to Him. You've gotten God very mixed up with Satan in some ways, and I can see why you would want to defy Him in that case.

Originally Posted by Union Of V

OOOOOoooo this is a FUN debate!!!! I can't possibly debate every side to it, but here are some great points that cropped up:

This is interesting. So say someone lived their entire life without explicitly serving god, however she worked for the poor, saved lives, helped those around her and lived a life dedicated to bettering the lives of others. You're saying she's a theistic satanist and the enemy of god? Why should I worship him then?
There's a verse for this.
Isaiah 64:6:
All of us have become like one who is unclean,
and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags;
we all shrivel up like a leaf,
and like the wind our sins sweep us away.

This is hard to understand, but I'll try.
Our righteous acts, when done without done as if working for God, are like filthy rags to Him, because then it is self-pleasing, selfish.
Know what the original language for dirty rags really meant?
Used tampons.
Imagine, doing all these acts of kindness then coming to God after, and saying, "God, look at all the good I have done, here, it is in this box as a present to you!"
And in that box, to Him, is a box of used tampons.
Self-righteousness is not a good quality in God's eyes, and I dare say the same for millions of people in the world.

So... the bible is the word of god because it says so in the bible? Enough said...

You will find many prophecies in the bible and many things that tie in with scientific discoveries that would not even be possible to guess. If you want proof, the bible is full of it.

The concept of not worshipping god as sinful, as Lugez touched on, is a bit bizarre in my eyes. For me a sin is committing a reproachable act, and I can't see how not believing in something can be considered a reproachable act - in fact I'd hesitate to call it an act at all. For me the concept of sin must be universal, and not just confined to one particular faith.

It is sinful for at least one major reason. Worship is putting something above oneself. If you can't even put the Creator of everything, including your life, the lover of your soul, the only one to save you, if you can't put Him above you, then it's an insult to Him. All the work and love He poured into you was ignored, yet He will continue loving, and continue to offer His hand whenever you accept it.

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