[Annoni]

Gonna try a different format of responding that'll save time.

You all have God as the evil punisher... I'll explain more within this.

Originally Posted by Concrete Girl

Yet, when I was faithfully going to Church the only thing I ever felt was that I was pressured to believe all that the bible states, or I would not be able to enter Heaven. That is how I feel as a Christian, not at all comfortable, but unaccepted and pressured. Not the need to become a Christian, but the need to escape from being a Christian, if that makes any sense.

I don't believe in Hell, or the devil, yet that is clearly stated in the Bible that there is a Hell. I also don't believe that if there WERE a Hell, that God would send ANYONE no matter what kind of sins they had committed, to suffer so much as they would in Hell. That would simply make him evil, and far from perfect, don't you think?

I would truly love to be a follower of God as I always have been, but without all of the extra crap that goes along with being a Christian, and going to church as a Christian.

If you don't believe in a hell, then you believe in a god that can be with sin, yet in being with sin that make the god imperfect and therefore no better than any human. All this "extra crap"... some if it you really do need to pay attention to, but some of it is just extra fecal matter.

Originally Posted by anishift

I have a few questions.
Aren't we ALL supposed to be the sons and daughters of God? Why did Jesus have to die for our sins? What does that even have to do with ANYTHING? What about before Jesus died? Did the people who died before that not get the forgiveness we do?

Yes, we are all sons of daughters of God. Jesus had to die for our sins because it was the only way, the only price powerful enough to counter sin. He was the Son of God, like His Father he was blameless and did not sin. To put another human on the cross would've meant nothing, as we are in sin already and not near as holy.

What is the point, anyway? Why did Jesus have to die, and why couldn't we just be forgiven in the first place.

Because God is in Heaven, and to be in Heaven is to be with God, and God cannot be with sin. We are sinful, so there needs to be salvation to be presented with God.

Sure, a loving father would be disappointed if his children were not keeping with the values he gave them. But I know that even if I went out and started "whoring" myself, my Dad would still want to know how I was doing all the time and he would still love me, even if he didn't like what I was doing. My parents wouldn't kill me if I didn't do what they wanted or if I didn't worship them.

God still wants to know (and does know) how His children are doing, and He still loves them the same, but being holy He cannot tolerate sin except through Jesus, so if the child denies Jesus, there is nothing God can do because of the free will He has given. God does not like it when we're turned over to Satan and Hell, but the alternative is for God to be with sin, but I'm repeating myself.

I can tell you that if I were to create a universe and a species I would not expect them to worship me. I would want them to lead lives of respect and honesty, not expect them to have faith that I didn't program into them in the first place. I mean yea, we're supposed to have a "choice" but how much of a choice is it when we're faced with the fire of eternity if we don't do what he wants? Apparently knowledge of good and evil are programmed into us, why not faith too? God is a perfect God, so why couldn't he just forgive us? What does letting his son die have to do with anything?

Because faith, by definition, IS a choice. It's something we have to do on our own. Good exists within us. Evil exists within us. Faith becomes a product of our heart and thoughts according to good and evil.

Originally Posted by Lugez

All right I see your point. Still doesn't convince me that he's my father. He's my creator.

WSWTIG... -> We see where this is going

We do have the will to do what we want. And honestly, if she wanted to be a whore than LET her. If it's what makes her happy...I don't believe God should judge her for that. She is in the right by doing what she pleases....

WSWTIG

I believe he created life so it could take care of itself. Life is meant to flourish and go on it's own, not be tampered with like the Christian God apparently does.

The bible has a different view, but, WSWTIG.

A reasonable God would know that not everyone would follow him. I agree here. But I don't believe he yearns for anything, because he wants us to live our lives the way we see fit.

Why would He not yearn to be loved by His Creation? That makes no sense. He yearns for them to be saved, not to have themselves willingly thrown to sin and Satan and eventually Hell if they so choose in their life.

So even by his faulty "parenting" he's still perfect? Doesn't make sense to me.
Not faulty parenting, it's the dealings of sin that have stolen the hearts of God's children which is the "fault".

If God was all powerful as they so say, there would have been another way.

See what I said above to another person. Jesus was God in the flesh, a big enough sacrifice and price for the world's sin.

Again, the WRITERS (ancient peeps) of the Bible say we are in his image but....Yeah, you see where this is going.
Yup... ISWTIG.

I want to talk a little more about sin here, as I think here it would be more appropriate.

Here is what I believe...Ok, IF there is a God (I said in my first post I'm playing Devil's Advocate a little on you, so what do I really believe?) I would think he would be NEITHER all good, nor all bad. He just IS. Why? Because when he created life, I don't believe he had a complete set standards on what "right" and "wrong" was. Because when you eliminate the human conscious from the Earth....Is there such a thing as morals? When our planet was just a barren wasteland and water and rocks where there morals? No. So how did "sins" and "right" and "wrong" come about? In short, HUMANS came up with it so we could have a functioning stable society. Who is to say that us and God have the same exact idea of what right and wrong is?

Okay. This is going to be interesting.
Did you ever hear completely about the story of Adam and Eve, the Garden of Eden? That should answer most of it. In the beginning, God created all this stuff, made man and woman in his own likeness, and everything was very good to God. If there was any sin, God would not have thought so. So as of yet, there is so wrong, but He gave His two children a choice, and said do not eat of the one tree. It was the only restriction God gave.
This is where Satan comes in.
Satan deceives Eve, and Eve gets Adam to eat the fruit.
This was the first sin, and from that point on, original sin would be in everyone's lives.
And there was no "barren wasteland" like you say, not for very long anyway. God created things pretty quickly if you read about it. The earth is only something like 5000-6000 years old.
God was good, and being made in His image we were good. Satan came along and introduced to us what is wrong, sin. So, there is your good, there is your wrong.

So I don't believe God would view everything as black and white. That this is a "sin" and that isn't. I believe God would look at what you did through YOUR eyes. If you were true to your core, and honestly believed that what you were doing was right, I believe you would be rewarded (I don't believe in Heaven or Hell, so I can't say what happens because it's impossible to know).

I know you don't like references to the Bible, but the Bible also says it is actually black and white. There is no "sort of sinning". You either sin, or you don't. But, as you don't believe in Heaven, Hell, and thus Heavenly rewards, WSWTIG.

However, I believe that a reasonable God would have SOME standards by how he would want others to live...But I believe the most important thing would be to respect his creation. Including life. Would a God want someone going around destroying everything he created? No, he reasonably wouldn't like that.

That is very true, and ties in with the 10 commandments. Of course we should respect His Creation, but that is only a piece of it.

Again, I don't view him as my father. I don't believe "loving" him is necessary, but I PERSONALLY believe that the LEAST you should do is to be grateful for this life. I never viewed the relationship between me and God as parallel between parent and child....But I believe our relationship with each other is a good one. This is just me though.

Hmm... how would you think your relationship with God is a good one? I don't mean to judge, but by the bible (which I understand you do not go by) it doesn't seem right.

And you want the child to love you. If it doesn't, are you going to kill it and send it into a burning pit of hell for all eternity?

God does not want to send His children to Hell, He would rather not, but because they were deceived by sin and have not turned to salvation, there is nothing He can do because His Creation does have free will with their lives.

Ok...He'd be surrounded by his worshipping angels with his thumb up his ass. Better?

Still...I feel bad for those angels. Eternity of worship? That's got to suck ass.

The angels love worshiping their God, they believe His is more than worthy of their praise, as do I, but this is obviously a personal thing.

Originally Posted by YourNightmare

From what I get out of it, the idea of Christianity is to practice peace, forgiveness, compassion, kindness, being grateful for the life you've been granted, etc... . If god were a person, I don't think he'd have too big of a problem if you don't do everything as outlined in the bible as long as you still adhere to the philosophy and moral teachings of the belief. I can see many reasons why you may dislike Christianity, as I suppose one may be the over-emphasis on punishment and very little on grace and mercy.

Hmm. True enough, I guess, but missing key parts. It's the salvation that matters the most.

It is your belief so you shouldn't think that you cannot believe in it because of what a certain belief says. You can in a way mix and match bits and pieces to personalize your belief. Theoretically, you could believe in the christian god, Vishnu and worship Satan all in one go if you wanted to.

The OP asked about mixing with the Christian God, and I am forming my responses with that in mind. Let's just look how this works out from the beginning.

Bible: In the beginning, God...
OP: In the beginning, the god that I imagine...

Theoretically, yes, you could, but is it all right?

Oh how I smile whenever I read that. There is a very big problem you face when you say something or someone is perfect at everything, which is his perfection at imperfection. You may laugh at this but it is true, if he is to be perfect at everything, then that must by logic include being perfect at imperfection.

Not true, really. Perfection is separation from imperfection. Perfection is not perfection at imperfection in part. I don't know how to make that more obvious. In extremes the opposite is not always true by relation or association to the extreme.

With the above idea in mind and the fact that god committed many sins, I don't think he has too much of a problem with it. One main verse that shows this is:

“The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.” (Galatians 5:19-21)
It does not matter if god hates the sin of the person or the person in general, it is hatred and dislike either way. As you are quite familiar with the bible, I'm sure you know more than one passage where god's rage and fury was mentioned.

Whoa, okay, you're far off track here. God did not commit any sins. At all! And yes, God's fury and rage is mentioned, but He loves His Creation and is angry with the sin, not the people.

Before you quote this and try to give some argument against it, bare in mind the initial thing I said, for him to be perfect, he must be perfect at imperfection. The obvious counter to that argument is that he is perfect only at "good things", however, that is not what is mentioned nor is that what you mentioned.

Took that into account. Perfection is away from imperfection, imperfection is not found with perfection in actions or anything else by perfection.

This is where I get very skeptical. If a god were to show unconditional love, then why not let all of his creations into his wonderful place of joy and such? Why have a place set up simply for punishment in some form? I find it rather hard to wrap my head around the idea that he loves you unconditionally even while he decides for you to suffer endlessly.

See what I've said quite a few times now about God not being able to have a connection or relationship with sin. He doesn't decide for us to suffer endlessly.

You see, since the beginning, Satan has envied God, and in His envy He wants to destroy God's creation, so Satan brought sin into our lives that is detestable to God. Actually, my girlfriend read a book that somewhat has this in it.

"Being unable to defeat God through raw power. Satan's legions decide to wound God as deeply as possible by stealing the love of his beloved through seduction, and having seduced them to his party, to ravage them body and soul, and having ravaged them to mock them, even as they are hurled to the depths of hell with God himself unable to save them because to their rejection of him. This is Satan's motivation and goal for every man, woman, and child into whom God ever breathed the breath of life, Like a roaring lion, he hungers for us"
His beloved, that is us, that is the people in the world. Soak it in. Satan is the perpetrator.

"Evil is not the point. The point is the love story. We live in a love story that is set in the midst of a war. When you understand those two things, you will suddenly understand Christianity, and you will understand your own life."
The war, that is the war on the spiritual level, the war between good and evil.
The love, that is the love from God

Related verses:
John 10:10 :: The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.
1 Peter 5:8-9 :: Be self-controlled and alert. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour. Resist him, standing firm in the faith, because you know that your brothers throughout the world are undergoing the same kind of sufferings.
James 4:7 :: Submit yourselves, then, to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

Originally Posted by Christinaa317o8

God can't have THAT much of a problem of sin if he can forgive.
And not all sins are equal in God's eyes, thats why there's venial sin and mortal sin.

That's more of a Catholic thing, although there is the "unoforgivable sin", which is to blaspheme against the Holy Spirit. But at that point, that person isn't seeking salvation anyway. Also, I've been told mortal sin is still forgivable..?

I'm Catholic but I deffiniatley don't agree with half of what the religion follows by. But I agree with the basic teachings and rules and comandments ect. because I find them in the bible and they're easy to understand. But the things that have different interpretations, like homosexuality I follow my own beliefs just as MANY others do. And God cannot judge that because he didn't make that topic clear. One Christian says that homosexuality is wrong, while the priest of that church says its okay. People follow their own beliefs everyday. And its okay for the OP and anyone else to do so as long as they've looked into the bible and they've searched for other opinions. Which is what the OP has done.

It is actually quite clear on the topic of homosexuality, very clear. It's the pressures of the world that practises homosexuality that are clouding what the verses and passages actually mean.
I do agree though, some things are hard to understand in the bible and can be taken a few different ways. But, you still must be careful, because it is possible to take things out of context or think slightly differently of the wording to think adultery is okay, killing is okay, etc.

Personaly, I think that some things in this world are out of God's control. I don't think that he has POWER over everything because I refuse to believe that he would let the beautiful world he created to be peaceful end up to be a world of murders drugs and rapes. Then again, the very first sins occured between adam and eve not long after he created the world.

If you believe God does not have complete control, then you believe in a world of chaos, therefore God is not omnipotent and all-knowing by your views, so exactly why do you consider following Him if He isn't that great to you?
But the truth is He DOES have the power, but He has given each of us a choice, and sin infests the land and the hearts of everyone. The choice if what is important: If we were all forced to have faith, is it really faith?

I don't think he has such a big problem with sin as Annoni makes him out to have. We're all born with "original sin" aren't we?

It's clear. He has a huge problem with sin, so much so that anyone that hasn't been saved by Jesus can't be with him, because God cannot tolerate sin.

All in all, the bible as well as God is too complex for a lot of us to understand. God created the bible, in my opinion, to create diversity in beliefs. So that he could be preceived in different, but EQUAL ways. We don't worship him in equal ways, but we do see him in countless different ways and I truly do not think that he cares.

I think he does love us unconditionaly, but like I said I still don't think he has time to control everyone's future and plans. I don't think he can cure everyone's suffering and I don't think he's sent enough angels to help. But he still does love us all, he created man.

God exists separate from time, so of course He has the time for everything and everyone.

I think that the OP's belief of Hell isn't quite logical. Hell is not made of fire and burning flames and what not. People who have killed and murdered endlessly go to hell. They don't stay there forever though, that's why there's reincarnation. To me, hell would be a place that consists of misery for those to go who were never sorry and never felt any remorse for what they did wrong. However, those who do commit horrible sins and find God and his forgivness, they are given another chance to go to Heaven. But Hell DOES exists.

I'd be repeating myself, so see everything I've said before if anyone wants my response to this.

Originally Posted by Lugez

I believe that this is the main issue when arguing with Christians. People like us don't believe that this ancient book is the word of God, and for good reason.

WSWTIG?

To me, it's the same thing as me writing down on a piece of paper "God says he loves you." Afterwards, I'd run around saying READ THE WORD OF GOD!!

Eh, I know this is a WSWTIG, but the words in the bible are God-breathed, they are His words sent to us so that we may know Him. How would you explain all the prophecies and the things that tied in with science thousands of years later?

This is why I believe the Bible is flawed, because it was written by men...But Christians don't believe that, and then they stick to the book with their arguments while we aren't swayed by those words.

I'll admit it is a bit flawed. It's been translated hundreds and hundreds of times, there is going to be some error from the original words, especially away from the original language, but they do work that out and it's fairly error-free as long as it's in the original language. As soon as it is translated that will always present a small problem.

And with that, it pretty much impossible to sway each other...

Hmm, really?