Religion vs. Fairy Tales

[chickenonsteroids]

Originally Posted by Megan1

His motive is that He loves us and wants to be with us, not let sin separate us. I know it's hard to understand why someone would love us so selflessly since people on Earth don't really do that, but God's love is so much more amazing than the love that humans can give us.

And you know that how? What's stopping him from be a bad person in our eyes?

[Megan1]

It says so in the bible, and I believe the bible by faith. I don't have "proof" that God loves us, but I know He does.

[chickenonsteroids]

ok seems legit

[Baxter]

Originally Posted by Tapanga Paige

I'm not trying to bash on anyone's beliefs. However religion to me sounds like a cowards way out. In stead of owning up to the fact that there is all kinds of bad shit in the world and most people don't give a rats back side about you, you believe that there is an allknowing loving and forgiving being that wants a personal relationship with you. What reason does God have to save anyone? He doesn't benefit from it does he? And of course he would only do something that takes that much effort if he benefited somehow right? Thats how we would look at it and we were created in his likeness right? So either He really truely loves and cares about each individual for no appearent reason and we weren't created just like him, or we are exactly like him and everyone is gonna be screwed when they discover his alterior motive.

Because everyone doesn't have as good as a life as you that they're able to accept that? Theres a reason why a lot of poor people are religious, because it's a whole lot better believing in religion, then the fact that you're just another worthless human being on this earth.

[Henry Tyrell]

Originally Posted by Baxter

Because everyone doesn't have as good as a life as you that they're able to accept that? Theres a reason why a lot of poor people are religious, because it's a whole lot better believing in religion, then the fact that you're just another worthless human being on this earth.

Wait wait... I'm confused. I'm pretty sure it was religion that taught people that they are lower than ants, as good as dirt, born sinful, born dirty, born evil. Religion spreads that bullshit(especially when it comes to females and how dirty and disgusting their bodies and lust are). How could a lack of religion possibly be worse?

[~Mr. Self Destruct~]

Originally Posted by Megan1

Once you are saved, that's it, you're saved forever. If you believe that you are a sinner on your way to hell, that Jesus came and died on the cross to take that punishment for you so your sin can be gone and you can go to Heaven, that He rose again 3 days later to defeat sin, and then you repent (which means recognizing that God is right and sin is bad) and confess Jesus as your Savior....then you are saved once and for all. You don't have to keep being re-saved every time you mess up. However, if you were truly saved, it's very unlikely that you would WANT to turn Athiest later. Does that make sense?

"Truly saved." What a vague statement.
Of course, the definition has very little no merit in reality, because that would involve questioning someone's "devotion", which cannot be measured objectively. And guess what, there is no one in this "realm" (if that's the word you'll permit me to use to express that particular aspect of your beliefs) can objectively define that for you. And considering that God isn't going to clarify that for us, I find it very hard to believe anyone can be "truly saved".

[Null]

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but I hate it when ignorant people on BOTH sides of the argument come out of the gate fists flying. Religion gives people ground to stand on when all hope is lost. When you don't have that ground where does it lead you?

[Null]

Originally Posted by Megan1

It says so in the bible, and I believe the bible by faith. I don't have "proof" that God loves us, but I know He does.

That is what faith is, trusting without tangible proof. I agree with you

[Henry Tyrell]

Originally Posted by mr 1911

Religion gives people ground to stand on when all hope is lost. When you don't have that ground where does it lead you?

Guess what. There were times when I felt hopeless. And I didn't need a sky daddy, or fairy, or santa to save me. I saved myself, by pulling myself together and working though my problems.

Don't you dare tell me I'm too weak to save myself, that I need someone else to save me. Because that is just not true.

[Megan1]

Originally Posted by ~Mr. Self Destruct~

"Truly saved." What a vague statement.
Of course, the definition has very little no merit in reality, because that would involve questioning someone's "devotion", which cannot be measured objectively. And guess what, there is no one in this "realm" (if that's the word you'll permit me to use to express that particular aspect of your beliefs) can objectively define that for you. And considering that God isn't going to clarify that for us, I find it very hard to believe anyone can be "truly saved".

No, being saved isn't about how strong your devotion is. Being saved is about truly believing that Jesus did that for you because you are a sinner, confessing that He saved you, and repenting (which means having a change of mind) from your sins. This is a one-time thing and you are saved forever reguardless of your future. HOWEVER, once you get saved and realize how amazing God is and what He's done for you, you're going to WANT your future to be about Him. Does it make more sense that way?

[Megan1]

Originally Posted by Rosana

Don't you dare tell me I'm too weak to save myself, that I need someone else to save me. Because that is just not true.

I know this comment wasn't to me, but I wanted to tell you this anyways. I'm sure you were strong enough to save yourself from your Earthly problems and trials that you went through and get over them. However, Jesus came to save us from something much greater- hell. We are all sinners who would be going there to take the punishment for our sins, and there was no way to save ourselves from that....so Jesus did it instead. He came and suffered to take our punishment for us and wash us clean from our sins so our souls will be sinless and we can go to Heaven when we die and be freed from all sadness and struggle forever. If we choose to be saved by believing that He did this then rose from the dead 3 days later to defeat our sins, confess Him as our Savior, and repent (have a change of mind to realize that God is right and sin is bad), we are saved from hell and can go to Heaven. THAT is something that we can't do ourselves. You can sometimes fix your little problems yourself, I don't doubt that, but God saved us from something so much bigger.

[chickenonsteroids]

Originally Posted by Megan1

However, Jesus came to save us from something much greater- hell.

Ok let me get this straight,

God created us as sinners, we were born with sin because Adam and Eve ate an apple after being convinced by a talking serpent. So all of humanity is now doomed because of this one event that God knew was going to happen anyway (yet he still seemed surprised and pissed off?).

Then he created hell and instead of just leaving hell for Satan he decided to open it up for the rest of the humans he created with sin and threaten people with eternal torture if they don't believe in him. Convicting little children of thought crime and making them feel horrible just so that he could later say "I actually love you but if you don't believe I exist I'll damn you to hell forever... oh ps I'm going to make it look like I don't exist at all by hiding, letting bad things happen and only give you a book that's been translated many many times. Secondly I'm going to throw a bunch of other 'false' religions into the mix that threaten you with hell too just for fun. Love, God."

Then he sacrificed himself to himself so that people worship him and call themselves sinners even though they've done nothing wrong apart from being born.

Also, those who will believe in him with as little evidence possible are bad because thinking for yourself equals evil and thinking what his 2000 year old book says is great... but he'll ask you not to pay attention to all the killing that happens in the old testement because he was obviously feeling down so he decided to kill a bunch of people (AND CATS!!!!)

Then he still thinks that he's the greatest mo'fo in town.

Seems legit. It really does.

[Megan1]

God didn't create us with sin, but He also didn't stop the sin right away when it happened.

He wasn't surprised when Adam and Eve sinned, but He was angry. Even then He still loved them and made a plan to save them.

Hell was created for satan and satan's angels. If we follow satan (sin), we end up where he is- hell. If we believe in God's salvation, He saves us from that, even though we still deserve hell. I've explained that part already.

The bible hasn't been translated many many times. Well, I mean, there are some weird translations out there, but the very first original scrolls are still available and bibles are still be translated straight from that.

God didn't create false religions; satan did. God just didn't stop him, and I assume that's because if we truly have the faith to believe in Him, we'll believe despite the false religions.

And when you say that He "sacrificed Himself to Himself", you're partly right. The Father and the Son are two separate parts of God, but yes they are both God. Sin has to be paid for, even if it's by the one who sets that standard.

God never ever said not to pay attention to the killing in the old testament. In fact, Jesus said that we DO need to pay attention to it, but to remember that it shouldn't happen that way any more.

Other than all of those things (though there isn't much left), you're right.

[chickenonsteroids]

Originally Posted by Megan1

God didn't create us with sin, but He also didn't stop the sin right away when it happened.

Ok, I don't see it being much better if he created us with the knowledge that we'd sin/

He wasn't surprised when Adam and Eve sinned, but He was angry. Even then He still loved them and made a plan to save them.

How could he be angry when he knew it was going to happen with certainty... not a guess, he knew. He seems pretty childish to me.

Hell was created for satan and satan's angels. If we follow satan (sin), we end up where he is- hell. If we believe in God's salvation, He saves us from that, even though we still deserve hell. I've explained that part already.

Omnibenevolence doesn't work with infinite torture. He's an asshole. Why not keep hell to satan and not allow us to burn forever... after all we are just feeble humans who don't know what is best for us.

The bible hasn't been translated many many times. Well, I mean, there are some weird translations out there, but the very first original scrolls are still available and bibles are still be translated straight from that.

If that's the case, why did people in the vaticant only allow the bible to be read in latin for years?

Plus since the dead sea scrolls were only found in the last century they haven't have they? A lot of people use the King James Version which was written 400 years ago. Words are always changing. They weren't translated directly.

God didn't create false religions; satan did. God just didn't stop him, and I assume that's because if we truly have the faith to believe in Him, we'll believe despite the false religions.

"the man didn't stop the evil man from shooting the child because he expected her to have faith the bullet would jam"

It's an impossible game you're playing. You could be wrong as the Quran is regarded as "truth" to them and they disregard christianity. Would it be fair to send them to hell? Is it their fault?

God never ever said not to pay attention to the killing in the old testament. In fact, Jesus said that we DO need to pay attention to it, but to remember that it shouldn't happen that way any more.

But of course, god is still 'all loving' right? So he told himself that it shouldn't happen again... ok.

To be honest, you're pushing me away from christianity. It seems that worshipping God is the wish to be a slave from this perspective. I'm done with this topic. I still wish it was taught as a fairy tale or rather not attaching the word truth to it at all. I agree with Bishop Spong completely on this message... Christianity needs to change or die. (that's figurative) you can find out about his book by searching.

[Megan1]

How could He be angry when He knew it would happen? Because they still chose to disobey Him. He allowed it to happen because like I said, if He didn't give them the choice, they couldn't choose to love Him. It'd be like if a parent specifically told a child not to lie. Almost everyone lies, so the parent knows that the child will break that rule at some point. So should the parent not punish the child just because they knew that they would break the rule? No, that doesn't make sense. Granted, it's a little different because God knew the exact time it would happen....but still, the analogy still fits.

Why not keep hell for just satan? Because when we follow satan, we deserve it just as much as satan does! God still made a way out though, but He's not going to force us to take that way out, we have to choose it.

Why was the bible only in latin for years? Because those specific people didn't know how to translate the original scrolls. And if you read the NASB bible translation, they did use the dead sea scrolls as well and it is translated directly from the original scrolls. If there is a word in the scrolls that could mean more than one thing, they tell you all of the possible meanings.

Would it be fair to send someone to hell if they truly believed that the quran was true? Yes, because you have to remember that they aren't going to hell for being deceived by another religion....they are going to hell for the sins that they committed. Finding the right religion just would have been the way out, which we don't even deserve to start with...so it's perfectly fair.

The killing didn't need to happen again, because Jesus died to take our punishment instead of us being punished.

I'm not the one pushing you away from Christianity. I'm just quoting what the bible says, and if you're being turned off from it, that's not something that I can do anything about. I'm sorry that you feel that way though and maybe we should be done with this topic.

[Coffee.]

Originally Posted by Megan1

Once you are saved, that's it, you're saved forever. If you believe that you are a sinner on your way to hell, that Jesus came and died on the cross to take that punishment for you so your sin can be gone and you can go to Heaven, that He rose again 3 days later to defeat sin, and then you repent (which means recognizing that God is right and sin is bad) and confess Jesus as your Savior....then you are saved once and for all. You don't have to keep being re-saved every time you mess up. However, if you were truly saved, it's very unlikely that you would WANT to turn Athiest later. Does that make sense?

So, I'm asking an honest question. Can somebody really murder and assault people, then repent and get saved, while I can go my entire life being a good person and not hurting anybody but because I don't give myself to Jesus Christ and believe and all, I'm going to hell? I'm just...not quite understanding why that makes any sense at all. If that's the case, I'm not sure I'd want to go to heaven. They aren't necessarily GOOD PEOPLE, they just believed in god. obviously many good people believe in god. But really, Hitler committed suicide, so we don't know what he was doing in his last few moments, but what if he was repenting. Would he be in heaven, six million deaths later?

[Zen Ryochan]

The whole god allowing us to sin is more like a parent leaving a loaded gun around and telling the child not to touch it (the tree in the garden... just sitting there... "don't touch" scribbled on the side...) Even worse god knew they would and knew they would get themselves "killed" by it. Who would we blame if someone did that in the real world?

And then there is the problem of all the poor souls going to hell for being born in the wrong place at the wrong time. According to the old testament you had to be a Jew. What about the people born thousands of miles away? That's like god saying "I don't like you so I'm gonna let you be born to a people I'm sending to hell just for not being a Jew"...

It's not right...

"No one saves us but ourselves. No one can and no one may. We ourselves must walk the path." -Buddha

[Megan1]

Originally Posted by Coffee❤

So, I'm asking an honest question. Can somebody really murder and assault people, then repent and get saved, while I can go my entire life being a good person and not hurting anybody but because I don't give myself to Jesus Christ and believe and all, I'm going to hell? I'm just...not quite understanding why that makes any sense at all. If that's the case, I'm not sure I'd want to go to heaven. They aren't necessarily GOOD PEOPLE, they just believed in god. obviously many good people believe in god. But really, Hitler committed suicide, so we don't know what he was doing in his last few moments, but what if he was repenting. Would he be in heaven, six million deaths later?

I have a few things to say to this, but first, I want to say thank you for asking out of serious curiosity instead of trying to debate.

The bible says that no one is good. Yes there are people who do more good/less bad than others, but all of our souls are contaminated with sin that we committed and that's why we can't go to Heaven without our sins being gone.

I've said this part a million times, so you probably know, but you don't go to hell for not believing in Jesus Christ. You go to hell for committing sin, but believing in Jesus (meaning believing in what He did to save you, not just His existance) is just the free (undeserved) gift to get you out of that punishment.

As far as your question about Hitler...I obviously can't tell you what he was doing in his last moments, but chances are that if he had been saved, he would have wanted to use the remainder of his life to spread the gospel and try to heal people from the things that he did to them. Committing suicide showed that he was probably hopeless, which probably means that he hadn't been saved...because the moments after you are saved is where you generally realize how much hope there is for you. However, hypothetically, if a murderer who kills countless people truly realized that they were a sinner on their way to hell and turned to Jesus to save them, yes, they can be saved too. The bible says that if we've committed one sin it's as bad as committing them all, so they are no worse than us (even though they did hurt more people).

Also, I'm not sure that you understand what repenting is. The word repent means "change of mind". In other words, changing your mind from "I'm good enough to get to Heaven on my own" or "what I'm doing isn't sin" to "everything that God says is true, I have sinned against Him and am going to hell. I want to choose God instead and let Jesus save me once and for all". THAT is repenting. It means recognizing sin as bad and choosing God instead. When you truly do that, you are going to WANT to obey God, you won't want to do bad any more. But you'll probably still mess up, and you're still saved if you do.

[Megan1]

Originally Posted by Ryochan

The whole god allowing us to sin is more like a parent leaving a loaded gun around and telling the child not to touch it (the tree in the garden... just sitting there... "don't touch" scribbled on the side...) Even worse god knew they would and knew they would get themselves "killed" by it. Who would we blame if someone did that in the real world?

And then there is the problem of all the poor souls going to hell for being born in the wrong place at the wrong time. According to the old testament you had to be a Jew. What about the people born thousands of miles away? That's like god saying "I don't like you so I'm gonna let you be born to a people I'm sending to hell just for not being a Jew"...

It's not right...

"No one saves us but ourselves. No one can and no one may. We ourselves must walk the path." -Buddha

In a way, you are right with the gun analogy. However, the difference is that even after Adam and Eve sinned and died spiritually, God made a way to give them a second chance by coming to save them. If a parent were to leave a loaded gun around and their kid got killed, there could be no second chance. Also, they are just two completely different situations. God has more rights than human parents do. I know you probably won't think that's fair though.

Also, I know I'm going to sound like a broken record, but people are NOT going to hell for being born in the wrong place at the wrong time. They are going to hell for committing sin. Knowing and believing the gospel just would have been the way out, which is more than what they deserve. I don't know how God decides who is born where, so I just have to trust Him with that part.

"I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father but through Me." -Jesus

[Henry Tyrell]

Wait, wait. You agree with the idea that God left a loaded gun with two people who were as intelligent as children... and then say God was correct in giving them a "second chance"? A second chance at what, being a terrible parent?

[Megan1]

When I said second chance, I was talking about Adam and Eve/all of the sinners in the world. I wasn't talking about the analogy of the parent and the gun. I was saying that God gave Adam and Eve a second chance to be saved/be His children even though they sinned.

[Zen Ryochan]

Those people going to hell for sin never got that second chance. Jesus hadnt lived yet and they weren't jews so they went to hell.

[Megan1]

First off, we don't deserve that second chance, so even if that were true it would still be fair. But I was referring to Adam and Eve, who DID follow God after their sin in the garden. In the old testament, if someone followed God, they went to a place called Abraham's Bosom when they died, and they stayed there until Jesus died on the cross...then they receiving Him and went to Heaven.

[Zen Ryochan]

We did deserve it since it was gods gun he left laying around. And only gods chosen line was allowed there. If you were born in another part of the world you were pretty much screwed never knowing this jewish god existed.

[Megan1]

We don't deserve the second chance because even if God did leave the "gun" (fruit tree) laying around, He told them exactly what would happen if they used it. If a child pulled a trigger on a gun, it would be different because they aren't old enough to fully know what would happen if it went off. Adam and Eve were clearly told that they would die spiritually and be separated from God. They knew exactly what would happen and did it anyways.

I don't know how much of the world knew about God back then before Jesus came, so I'm not going to argue with you about that. Either way, even if they weren't all given a second chance, God is still fair because we didn't deserve that second chance to start with! The second chance is just more than fair for those who receive it.

p.s. As usual, we are way off topic. Partly my fault.

[Zen Ryochan]

Yes he told them theyd die. But again thats the parent telling the child itd die if it touched the gun. No one had died. How were adam and eve to know what dying was? It was the tree of the knowledge of good and evil so they didnt know what was good or evil till they ate it. They were like children not knowing what anything was. They didnt even know they were naked how do you exepect them to know what death is?

Too many holes in the story. If the pot being made by the potter becomes bad and has to be thrown out blame the potter not the clay.

[thebigmole]

God was always setting Adam and Eve up to sin. They didn't have a choice, they would have sinned eventually for survival purposes. After all incest is a sin right? And Eve came from Adam's rib so in a sense they were related. And not only did they most likely have sexual urges God gave them, but they would have had a natural instinct (also God given) to continue their species. So they have sex and make children, who then also have sex with each other to make more children. There was no choice there. They were built with the will to keep their race going, which means they would have had to commit incest, which God says is a sin. So God was setting them up to begin with.

In conclusion God is an asshole.

[Megan1]

I can't tell you what God was thinking when He came up with the plan for Adam and Eve or what He was "setting up" to happen. I wasn't there. I can tell you this though- just because Adam and Eve didn't know good and evil doesn't mean they didn't know what death and separation from God was.

Adam and Eve didn't need to sin to survive though, I do know that. If they hadn't sinned, God would have provided everything that they needed. I don't know how sinning would be needed for survival?

[thebigmole]

Originally Posted by Megan1

I can't tell you what God was thinking when He came up with the plan for Adam and Eve or what He was "setting up" to happen. I wasn't there. I can tell you this though- just because Adam and Eve didn't know good and evil doesn't mean they didn't know what death and separation from God was.

Adam and Eve didn't need to sin to survive though, I do know that. If they hadn't sinned, God would have provided everything that they needed. I don't know how sinning would be needed for survival?

Did you not read my post? I said they would have had to sin in order to continue their race, have children. They were related, she came from him, incest is a sin, therefore their having sex was incest. But if they didn't have sex the human race would have died with them. So what are you saying that if they hadn't eaten from the tree God would have made it so they didn't need to have sex to make babies?

Oh I just have another question. How did Adam and Eve know ANYTHING before they ate from that tree. All the knew was that they weren't supposed to eat from the tree, but they didn't know why. After all they had no knowledge, they got that after they ate from the tree.

[Zen Ryochan]

If they didnt know what evil is then how can they know what separation from god is since that is evil? And nothing died... so death would be a mystery.

Just like children.

And i think most people would rather die than be in a world without sex

[Megan1]

Incest wasn't a sin then. God allowed incest for a long long time. There was a lot of incest in the bible that God didn't speak against. Adam and Eve's own children clearly had incest marriages and God didn't have anything bad to say about it. Also, I'm not sure whether or not Adam and Eve were "related" either way. She had one small part from Adam's body.....but I don't know....it's not like if you give someone one of your kidneys you are now related.

Adam and Eve did have knowledge before they ate from the tree- just not knowledge of everything. They knew that eating from the tree would make them die and not be close to God. Even though they didn't know what evil was, they still knew what separation from God was. It's like if someone didn't know that pre-marital sex was wrong...they can still know what pre-marital sex is without knowing that it is wrong (just an example). In the same way, you can know what separation from God is without knowing how evil it is. Death wasn't a mystery to them because God gave them the knowledge to know what it was. How do I know? Because God wouldn't tell them something just to talk to the air- He would have made them understand or He wouldn't have said it.

And who said there would have to be a world without sex??? lol Or are you talking about the incest thing too?

[Zen Ryochan]

God told them lots of things they never understood. The bible is full of things he said we still dont get.

Death never happened till after the fall. There was no evil in the world before the fall. Therefore death is evil since evil wasnt in the world till then and death the same. Adam and eve did not know evil till they ate from the tree. Therefore they did not know what death is. By what you said theyd know all the evil in the world just not that it was evil.

[Megan1]

God has said some things that not everybody understood, but He had a purpose for them and for the people who did understand. He wouldn't just aimlessly make a random statement that nobody could understand.

Death is caused by evil, but they aren't the same thing.

[Zen Ryochan]

Thats up to debate but i would argue the bible is full of things god has said that didnt make any sense. Even his own followers still argue over the vague things he said.

So people would have still died before the fall?

[Megan1]

No, people wouldn't have still died before the fall. Death was caused by sin, but that doesn't mean that death and sin are the same thing.

[Zen Ryochan]

So death is good

[Megan1]

Oh, no. If you're saying that death is something evil then you're correct, but that doesn't mean that evil and death are the same thing. I'm trying to think of an example. Okay, candy is good....but if someone didn't know the definition of the word "good", could they still know what candy is? Yes. That's how it was with Adam and Eve. Death is evil, but can they know what death is without knowing what evil is? Yes.

[Zen Ryochan]

So they knew what murder and stealing was

[Megan1]

I don't know, but they definitely knew what death was.

[thebigmole]

Megan I have an honest question. In another thread you explained what you believe about creationism. How does a belief in Adam and Eve fit into that? I just ask because I feel like you are fighting really hard to defend a story in the Bible that I'm not sure you actually believe in completely.