Religion vs. Fairy Tales

[Tapanga Paige]

Young children have minds that obsorb everything. They have to idea that there is anything else out there other than what they are taught at school and what they learn from their parents at home. I was just considering the shocking simularities between some fariy tales and some religious stories. For example 12 deciples 7 dwarfs, poison apple in snow white and in the garden of Eden, talking snake in the garden of Eden and in the jungle book. So I can't help but ask the obvious question...if you told a child that religion was a fairy tale and a fairy tale was religion would they know the difference??

[Henry Tyrell]

You're forgetting that the Bible is the "truth". That's how they can tell (sarcasm).

There's no difference. Religion and fairy tales are one and the same.

[thebigmole]

You make a good point. Especially since the whole point of fairy tales are to teach moral lessons, which is very similar to religion. However I do not quite get your last statement. Why would you tell a child that religion is a fairytale and visa versa, it's just not technically true. Religion is more than just some stories.

[chickenonsteroids]

... I wonder how this thread will turn out

[Megan1]

God is the one who gives us the faith to believe in Him and His salvation; faith isn't something that we come up with on our own. So yes, God definitely can draw a child to Him even if they are taught that He is just a fairy tale.

[~Mr. Self Destruct~]

Originally Posted by Megan1

God is the one who gives us the faith to believe in Him and His salvation; faith isn't something that we come up with on our own. So yes, God definitely can draw a child to Him even if they are taught that He is just a fairy tale.

Sounds about as probable as the Pink Invisible Unicorn.
Plus I've never heard that, not even from a Christian.
If "faith" is allegedly objective and administered by a deity so that people will believe in him, explain the existence if people like me.

[ThisWillDestroyYou]

As a child, I thought religion was all fake. In fact, considered it similar to a cartoon, or fairy tale. When I turned 20, that began to change, and I now consider the world a fairy tale, and religion, truth. My point is, everyone can think for themselves. Atheists become religious and religious become atheist. Perhaps the child wouldn't know the difference, as in my case, but eventually, they would. Similarly, someone told religion is true and a fairly tale.is fake, might one day accept the opposite. I.E. a child believing the bible is truth, may believe it is a fairy tale, like I'm sure many here already do.

[Megan1]

Originally Posted by ~Mr. Self Destruct~

Sounds about as probable as the Pink Invisible Unicorn.
Plus I've never heard that, not even from a Christian.
If "faith" is allegedly objective and administered by a deity so that people will believe in him, explain the existence if people like me.

I'm actually going to have to correct myself on my first statement and do more research first. I jut re-read the verse that I use to say that God gives us faith, but when I read it, it didn't say exactly what I thought it said. I'm not saying I'm wrong, but I'm saying that I need to do more research to make sure I'm not wrong before I continue preaching that. I'll get back to you.

Either way, I know for fact that children can get and have gotten saved even when people tell them that God isn't real. I've seen it happen. It doesn't mean that will always happen, but it definitely does sometimes.

[~Mr. Self Destruct~]

Originally Posted by Megan1

I'm actually going to have to correct myself on my first statement and do more research first. I jut re-read the verse that I use to say that God gives us faith, but when I read it, it didn't say exactly what I thought it said. I'm not saying I'm wrong, but I'm saying that I need to do more research to make sure I'm not wrong before I continue preaching that. I'll get back to you.

Either way, I know for fact that children can get and have gotten saved even when people tell them that God isn't real. I've seen it happen. It doesn't mean that will always happen, but it definitely does sometimes.

No one ever told me God wasn't real. I came to that conclusion all by myself. Don't assume otherwise.
And I highly doubt you can do "research" on that. Not only because it's apocryphal information, but because there is no way to prove it at all.

[Megan1]

That may be the case for you, but that's not the case for everybody. I teach children's church and I've seen all kinds of different children: ones who were told that God wasn't real and still believed in Him, ones who were told God wasn't real and so didn't believe in Him, ones who were told that God was real and never questioned it, and ones who were told that God was real and still didn't believe in Him. There are also the ones who were never told either way, and some of them end up believing and some don't. So my point is, God can work in a child's heart no matter what they are taught- but it of course does make it even easier if they are already told that God is real.

And I meant research to make sure that the bible really says that before I keep preaching it. I didn't mean research to prove that it was true, but just that the bible says that.

[Coffee.]

Originally Posted by Megan1

That may be the case for you, but that's not the case for everybody. I teach children's church and I've seen all kinds of different children: ones who were told that God wasn't real and still believed in Him, ones who were told God wasn't real and so didn't believe in Him, ones who were told that God was real and never questioned it, and ones who were told that God was real and still didn't believe in Him. There are also the ones who were never told either way, and some of them end up believing and some don't. So my point is, God can work in a child's heart no matter what they are taught- but it of course does make it even easier if they are already told that God is real.

And I meant research to make sure that the bible really says that before I keep preaching it. I didn't mean research to prove that it was true, but just that the bible says that.

So does God just randomly choose children to work with their heart? It seems improbable that faith is something that God implants in us or something. From your exact argument, faith seems to be something we choose to engage in, from what you're saying of children growing up in many different situations and choosing completely different paths. It seems much more likely that what we're taught growing up influences our decision on religion, from following our parents to questioning our parents, rather than god actually blessing us with faith or something of the sort.

Honestly, if a child was taught that fairytales were real, I don't see why they wouldn't believe in them. If somehow we could do an experiment telling people that fairytales were true, with the majority of people pretending to believe in them as well, there's no telling what would happen. But I think, as Megan was sort of saying (either on purpose or what I got out of it) that not just what you learn at home influences your religious choices. For me pesronally, I was told God didn't exist. Sort of. My parents are fairly spiritual agnostic/atheists, more like humanists or whatever I guess, and funny enough they both GREW UP Christian/Catholic.. My mom believed that Earth was god, or something of the sort, god more being within yourself and your relationship with yourself, your body, and the earth and people around you, also known as to many Christians as "Hippie shit." Personally, I did question my parents growing up, considering god may exist, and that other religions might be true, however, I came to my own conclusion that ended up correlating pretty closely with my parents.

[Megan1]

What our parents teach us does have an influence on us, but I don't believe that it makes the ultimate decision in our choosing. Also, I already said that I needed to do more research about God working in our hearts and why only some people have the faith to believe. I don't want to answer too quick and give a wrong answer.

[chickenonsteroids]

Originally Posted by Megan1

What our parents teach us does have an influence on us, but I don't believe that it makes the ultimate decision in our choosing. Also, I already said that I needed to do more research about God working in our hearts and why only some people have the faith to believe. I don't want to answer too quick and give a wrong answer.

If you were born in Saudi Arabia, how sure are you that you would have been 'saved' by the Christian God rather than Allah?

I ask because you seem pretty sure about your belief in your current God so if this influence is so powerful... why isn't he saving people from other religions?

To answer the original question I think that we're all born ignostic (neither atheist, agnostic or theist) but we just get influenced by our parents and our surroundings. If they were told the Bible or the Quran was a fairy tale they'd accept it. If they were taught it as fact they'd accept it too. I wish it was taught as a big metaphor rather than fact. You'd still have the benefits of following a character (Jesus) and you'd probably get rid of all the assholes committing atrocities in the name of their God. Then as people grow older they'll either move to deism or not believe in a theological god and depend on people rather than God. The idea of "what caused the big bang" would lead to deism and not a God that can intervene in our everyday lives. To me we'd have a better society or if not we'd still have the good acts that religious people do today and bad people can't throw the blame on someone else. We wouldn't have people making things "sacred" so they are never allowed to change. We would have a lot less rubbish about sexual inequality. All those who think things like homosexuality are wrong usually only have the statement "In the bible it says homosexuality is wrong blah blah blah but even though killing babies and plagues are seen as justice i'll just ignore that part so I can justify my stubbornness *more rubbish*".

Maybe i've become a little bit biased

[Tapanga Paige]

Wow this got a lot more feed back than i thought it would. All of your answers are very intriguing and I agree that influences as a child greatly effect one's overal decision. This begs the question: Should we teach anything pro or con religion to children, or should we simply let them grow up neutral and decide for themselves?

My parents are agnostic/athiest as well, and though I was never taught religion or dragged to church as a child as I grew older and was surrounded by peers with religious backgrounds I became curious. I took a personal interest and did all of my own research on various religions and their beliefs and came to a conclusion all on my own. So is it morally wrong to allow an "inocent" child to remain inocent and neutral until they themselves develope an interest on their own?

[thebigmole]

Originally Posted by Tapanga Paige

Wow this got a lot more feed back than i thought it would. All of your answers are very intriguing and I agree that influences as a child greatly effect one's overal decision. This begs the question: Should we teach anything pro or con religion to children, or should we simply let them grow up neutral and decide for themselves?

My parents are agnostic/athiest as well, and though I was never taught religion or dragged to church as a child as I grew older and was surrounded by peers with religious backgrounds I became curious. I took a personal interest and did all of my own research on various religions and their beliefs and came to a conclusion all on my own. So is it morally wrong to allow an "inocent" child to remain inocent and neutral until they themselves develope an interest on their own?

I grew up the same way you did. I didn't even know what religion was until I was 10 and we started learning about it in school. I am forever grateful that I was able to come to a completely unbiased decision for myself. I think in a perfect world all children would be raised that way but it will never happen. I wouldn't say it's morally wrong not to raise your kids that way, but I would say it's better parenting if you do.

[Moxie.]

Originally Posted by Tapanga Paige

My parents are agnostic/athiest as well, and though I was never taught religion or dragged to church as a child as I grew older and was surrounded by peers with religious backgrounds I became curious. I took a personal interest and did all of my own research on various religions and their beliefs and came to a conclusion all on my own. So is it morally wrong to allow an "inocent" child to remain inocent and neutral until they themselves develope an interest on their own?

I totally agree with this. I wasn't raised in the church. When I took an interest in different religions, I looked into it for myself and came to my own conclusion. In my case, I decided that Christianity was right for me. For others, it could be completely different. That's how it should be. Ideally, parents wouldn't drill a certain belief system into their child's mind. The way I see it, kids should be free to explore different things and come to their own conclusions about the way they want to live their life.

[Coffee.]

Originally Posted by thebigmole

I wouldn't say it's morally wrong not to raise your kids that way, but I would say it's better parenting if you do.

I disagree with you 100%. Sorry.

As the user you quoted, myself, and Sammi said, we all grew up differently, looked into religion, and came to our own conclusion. There's no right or wrong way to raise your child spiritually. Honestly, if you want to raise your child Christian, I think that's a find decision. I won't. I will raise my children to use critical thinking and come up with their own conclusion of how the world works, rather than just telling them what I believe and saying that's the world in a closed minded setting. I will tell them I do not believe in a god. They can decide to make one if they'd like. And your children would be great being raised Christian. There is no "better" way to parent a child spiritually.

[Megan1]

Originally Posted by chickenonsteroids

If you were born in Saudi Arabia, how sure are you that you would have been 'saved' by the Christian God rather than Allah?

I ask because you seem pretty sure about your belief in your current God so if this influence is so powerful... why isn't he saving people from other religions?

To answer the original question I think that we're all born ignostic (neither atheist, agnostic or theist) but we just get influenced by our parents and our surroundings. If they were told the Bible or the Quran was a fairy tale they'd accept it. If they were taught it as fact they'd accept it too. I wish it was taught as a big metaphor rather than fact. You'd still have the benefits of following a character (Jesus) and you'd probably get rid of all the assholes committing atrocities in the name of their God. Then as people grow older they'll either move to deism or not believe in a theological god and depend on people rather than God. The idea of "what caused the big bang" would lead to deism and not a God that can intervene in our everyday lives. To me we'd have a better society or if not we'd still have the good acts that religious people do today and bad people can't throw the blame on someone else. We wouldn't have people making things "sacred" so they are never allowed to change. We would have a lot less rubbish about sexual inequality. All those who think things like homosexuality are wrong usually only have the statement "In the bible it says homosexuality is wrong blah blah blah but even though killing babies and plagues are seen as justice i'll just ignore that part so I can justify my stubbornness *more rubbish*".

Maybe i've become a little bit biased

Actually, there are several stories about people in other countries where there is no teaching of Christianity who got saved. One story that sticks in my mind is this one: There was a man who lived in a little never-heard-of-by-most-people country in the middle of nowhere, and his country had no teaching/talk of God or Christianity. I'm not sure if the country followed another religion or just didn't follow any. But anyways, the man looked around one day at all of God's creations and realized "Someone HAD to have created all this!". So he prayed (although he didn't know it was called prayer; he was just talking to whoever was out there) and asked for whoever was out there to reveal themself to him and show him how to know them. God spoke to him (I can't remember if it was through a dream or while he was awake) and told him that a man carrying a black book would tell him the truth about Him. A long time later, he was out one day and saw a man (a missionary) carrying a black book. He ran over to him and begged him saying "TELL ME WHO HE IS!!!!", and so the missionary did and the man got saved. You're probably going to say "It was the missionary who did it, not God"...but God told the man ahead of time who to look for.

There are also many stories similar to that of people in other countries where there aren't even any missionaries who had never heard of a God or Christianity and God revealed Himself to them through dreams and they got saved. The story that I mentioned is the only one that I remember in detail, but there are other ones that happened through dreams too without the help of any human.

So to answer your question "Why isn't He saving people from other religions?", He is.

[chickenonsteroids]

Originally Posted by Megan1

Actually, there are several stories about people in other countries where there is no teaching of Christianity who got saved. One story that sticks in my mind is this one: There was a man who lived in a little never-heard-of-by-most-people country in the middle of nowhere, and his country had no teaching/talk of God or Christianity. I'm not sure if the country followed another religion or just didn't follow any. But anyways, the man looked around one day at all of God's creations and realized "Someone HAD to have created all this!". So he prayed (although he didn't know it was called prayer; he was just talking to whoever was out there) and asked for whoever was out there to reveal themself to him and show him how to know them. God spoke to him (I can't remember if it was through a dream or while he was awake) and told him that a man carrying a black book would tell him the truth about Him. A long time later, he was out one day and saw a man (a missionary) carrying a black book. He ran over to him and begged him saying "TELL ME WHO HE IS!!!!", and so the missionary did and the man got saved. You're probably going to say "It was the missionary who did it, not God"...but God told the man ahead of time who to look for.

There are also many stories similar to that of people in other countries where there aren't even any missionaries who had never heard of a God or Christianity and God revealed Himself to them through dreams and they got saved. The story that I mentioned is the only one that I remember in detail, but there are other ones that happened through dreams too without the help of any human.

So to answer your question "Why isn't He saving people from other religions?", He is.

He's doing a pretty shitty job of it tbh. There are roughly 2 billion Christians in the world right now... leaving 5 billion people condemned to hell either because they were never raised with an idea of who he is, walked away from him because he's playing an impossible hide and seek game or just started off believing in other religions in which they'd be thrown to hell if they leave their original position.

Plus, ignorance is a great way to start believing in something. That's usually how it's started. Yes there are people how either convert to Christianity or actually research about their religion. How many people can tell you that they believe in God because they went and researched about it?

If anything, god has favourites. Being 'saved' from other religions? What if you're wrong?

[Megan1]

I'm not going to lie and say that I know exactly why there are people who don't get saved and continue to deny salvation. Some Christians think it's because God gives us free will and won't force us (though He will still try to get us to see). Others believe that God has specific people who He has chosen ahead of time, and He will only open those certain people's hearts to understand/believe/accept salvation. I don't know exactly which one is true, though I tend to lean closer to the second option. I'm not going to pretend to know the answer. I do know that I am saved and I know that I am instructed to share the gospel with everyone...that's all I need to know. I just trust God with the rest.

To answer your questions:

How many people can tell me that they got saved from researching about it? Not many, because salvation requires faith.

What if I'm wrong? If I thought there was a chance that I could be wrong, I wouldn't have given God everything to start with. The bible says to count the cost before accepting Jesus, which I did, and I know that it's worth it.

[chickenonsteroids]

Originally Posted by Megan1

I'm not going to lie and say that I know exactly why there are people who don't get saved and continue to deny salvation. Some Christians think it's because God gives us free will and won't force us (though He will still try to get us to see). Others believe that God has specific people who He has chosen ahead of time, and He will only open those certain people's hearts to understand/believe/accept salvation. I don't know exactly which one is true, though I tend to lean closer to the second option. I'm not going to pretend to know the answer. I do know that I am saved and I know that I am instructed to share the gospel with everyone...that's all I need to know. I just trust God with the rest.

To answer your questions:

How many people can tell me that they got saved from researching about it? Not many, because salvation requires faith.

What if I'm wrong? If I thought there was a chance that I could be wrong, I wouldn't have given God everything to start with. The bible says to count the cost before accepting Jesus, which I did, and I know that it's worth it.

ok.

If we live under god then we have no free will, otherwise if we did we wouldn't be omniscient or all present imo. It's a contradiction. Under god we're all slaves to his will or he isn't the god you claim he is.

You said that you're meant to share the gospel with everyone but what happens when someone contests it? do you say they should just have faith or do you try and rationalise it with them?

So you honestly think you're 100% right and your only basis is faith? Don't you think that's a bit dangerous? To your human dignity I mean. I know a lot of people that are quite deep in their faith but might have doubt, which is better than having none at all ... to me anyway, unless you've been told what to think about your faith.

please correct me if I'm wrong but didn't you say on the creationism thread that you aren't meant to debate with non Christians?

[Megan1]

If I share the gospel with someone and they ask me questions, I will happily answer their questions. If I share the gospel with someone and they deny it or fight it, I will usually just give them a tract (which is a paper that has the salvation message on it) and tell them that they can read it if they ever have a change of mind and want to know about God. Occasionally I will mess up and get into a debate with someone about stupid issues, but I shouldn't.

And yes, I don't think it's a good idea to debate with people about "little issues". However, salvation isn't a little issue....it's the biggest issue there is. I mean, I still wouldn't go around in circles arguing with someone about it, but I'll gladly answer their questions.

[chickenonsteroids]

Originally Posted by Megan1

If I share the gospel with someone and they ask me questions, I will happily answer their questions. If I share the gospel with someone and they deny it or fight it, I will usually just give them a tract (which is a paper that has the salvation message on it) and tell them that they can read it if they ever have a change of mind and want to know about God. Occasionally I will mess up and get into a debate with someone about stupid issues, but I shouldn't.

And yes, I don't think it's a good idea to debate with people about "little issues". However, salvation isn't a little issue....it's the biggest issue there is. I mean, I still wouldn't go around in circles arguing with someone about it, but I'll gladly answer their questions.

Do you think hell is a fair punishment for those who reject a god that hasn't been proved?

[Megan1]

Yes, because hell is the "fair" punishment for every single one of us because of all of our sins. It's just that if you are a Christian and therefor get forgiven of your sins, you get better than fair (Heaven). God could have chosen to just give us "fair" which would mean letting everyone go to hell...but instead, He gave us the choice of getting something better instead. He had no obligation to do that.

If Christians got what was fair, we would go to hell too. But God has given an extra gift to those who believe in Him and His salvation, which is to go to Heaven even though they deserve hell.

[NevermindMe]

If a child were taught a fairy tale were real, they would. Eleive it. Look no further than Santa Claus. it's late but tomorrow I'm going to to have another post here.

- Justin

[chickenonsteroids]

Originally Posted by Megan1

Yes, because hell is the "fair" punishment for every single one of us because of all of our sins. It's just that if you are a Christian and therefor get forgiven of your sins, you get better than fair (Heaven). God could have chosen to just give us "fair" which would mean letting everyone go to hell...but instead, He gave us the choice of getting something better instead. He had no obligation to do that.

If Christians got what was fair, we would go to hell too. But God has given an extra gift to those who believe in Him and His salvation, which is to go to Heaven even though they deserve hell.

ok so we're born sick and into a losing battle which is completely out of our control. Yet we're still told to say sorry for our imperfect lives and worship the god that gave us this sin. Then if we don't believe in him because he's hiding we'd go.to hell because that's what we deserve in the first place. But the benefit of heaven is that we get to worship him for eternity.

Sounds like a fun time really.

[Megan1]

Correct except for the fact that God didn't give us the sin, satan did. Also, we do have original sin yes, but almost anyone who lives to be past the age of 2 has sinned on their own as well- and that part is completely our own faults. And yes we will worshio God in Heaven and enjoy every second of it, but it will also be the place with no pain and eternal happiness that never gets boring.

[chickenonsteroids]

Originally Posted by Megan1

Correct except for the fact that God didn't give us the sin, satan did. Also, we do have original sin yes, but almost anyone who lives to be past the age of 2 has sinned on their own as well- and that part is completely our own faults. And yes we will worshio God in Heaven and enjoy every second of it, but it will also be the place with no pain and eternal happiness that never gets boring.

Yes! We get invited to a party that we have to stay in and we'll be forced to enjoy it. /sarcasm

The more I think about it, the more I think it doesn't sound like bliss at all. Eternity is a very very very very long time.

Didn't god create satan? Shouldn't he have some of the blame... given the fact that he created evil. (unless satan was always there meaning god didn't create everything)

[Moxie.]

Okay, time for me to put my two cents in. Yes, God created Satan, but Lucifer (his real name) was originally an angel. He started getting a big head and he thought that he was more powerful than God. So, he got himself banished and chose to become the king of Hell. Feel free to re-word that; it was kinda awkward. Anyways, the reason Satan was able to do that is because God gives us free will. It is our choice whether or not to follow Him. Satan simply exercised that free will and walked away, with the determination to drag others away from God as well. I'm debating whether or not I should post verses, but I'll just leave it for now. Feel free to ask if you want them.

[chickenonsteroids]

Originally Posted by Iris. ♥

Okay, time for me to put my two cents in. Yes, God created Satan, but Lucifer (his real name) was originally an angel. He started getting a big head and he thought that he was more powerful than God. So, he got himself banished and chose to become the king of Hell. Feel free to re-word that; it was kinda awkward. Anyways, the reason Satan was able to do that is because God gives us free will. It is our choice whether or not to follow Him. Satan simply exercised that free will and walked away, with the determination to drag others away from God as well. I'm debating whether or not I should post verses, but I'll just leave it for now. Feel free to ask if you want them.

I'll assume you're talking to me

Plus I understand what you're talking about yet free will doesn't make sense with an omniscient god. If he knows what we will do before he created us at what stage will he not know what we'll do since we have free will? If you're sure we have free will then nothing has to be of his will. Then that allows him to be surprised or angry but true omniscience (remember he's timeless) means he can't be angry or suprised at lucifer walking off. Free will is either a cop out or he's not omniscient and timeless.

Post verses if you want or anything else you can find that's not the bible lol

[NevermindMe]

Iris: Nice post.

Okay, as promised:

Maybe relgion and fairy tales are similair. Maybe both are untrue. However what's wrong with believing in fairy tales and magic? It doesn't hurt you. We believe in it to try to benifit ourselves and as we believe, society. What's wrong with us trying not to lie, not to kill, not to molest and to devote a few precious moments of our day to pray to a diety who may or may not exist.

Once an evangelist gets in your face telling you you're going to hell, sure go apeshit. But I don't really see how most religion hurts others.
People going to war for religion are wrong. People who tell you gays go to hell are wrong. But those people are breaking the fundmentals of religion, and would likely be preaching gay hatred and going to war without religion as an excuse.

Plenty of perfectly logical people are relgious. Don't imediately assume we all deny evolution and other sceintific theories in favour of "God did it". Religion has bad bunches, but pointing out the bad religious people is the same as me saying "Well that serial killer who killed twenty women was an atheist! He was compelled to do it because he didn't beleive in God's guidance." it makes no sense.

Maybe religion is bunk, but it's not a good enough excuse to persecute it.

- Justin

[Tapanga Paige]

Originally Posted by Megan1

Yes, because hell is the "fair" punishment for every single one of us because of all of our sins. It's just that if you are a Christian and therefor get forgiven of your sins, you get better than fair (Heaven). God could have chosen to just give us "fair" which would mean letting everyone go to hell...but instead, He gave us the choice of getting something better instead. He had no obligation to do that.

If Christians got what was fair, we would go to hell too. But God has given an extra gift to those who believe in Him and His salvation, which is to go to Heaven even though they deserve hell.

So I'm going to be punished by a diety I don't believe exists for "sin" that only exists if I believe if I believe in said diety? How can I be punished by a God I don't believe is real? This concept sounds like paying for childcare if you don't have a child. One question I have about this is if God is so loving and forgiving why send everyone to suffer for all eternity in the first place?

[Megan1]

Originally Posted by chickenonsteroids

Yes! We get invited to a party that we have to stay in and we'll be forced to enjoy it. /sarcasm

The more I think about it, the more I think it doesn't sound like bliss at all. Eternity is a very very very very long time.

Didn't god create satan? Shouldn't he have some of the blame... given the fact that he created evil. (unless satan was always there meaning god didn't create everything)

The Earth is going to be gone some day, and the only places left to go will be Heaven or hell. Can you honestly say that you'd rather choose hell and suffer/be in unimaginable pain/regret every second for the rest of eternity (the bible describes hell that way) just so you don't have to worship God and don't "have to" be happy all the time? If so, that's not something I can change your mind about....but please know that once we get to Heaven, we aren't going to feel any unfullfilled desires or feel like we are bored or forced to be happy. It is going to be a constant overwhelming joy that only increases and doesn't fade or get boring/repetative.

Did got create satan? I think so. Is God all-knowing? Yes. So why didn't He stop satan from doing all this evil? I personally think it's because if God wouldn't have truly given Adam and Eve the choice to choose evil, they couldn't have truly chosen to love Him. The bible is very clear that love is a choice, so if evil didn't exist, we wouldn't have the choice to choose anything bad, so we couldn't choose to love God instead- we would just be mindless robots who do what God says because we have no other option. That wouldn't be love, and God wants us to be able to truly love Him.

Originally Posted by Tapanga Paige

So I'm going to be punished by a diety I don't believe exists for "sin" that only exists if I believe if I believe in said diety? How can I be punished by a God I don't believe is real? This concept sounds like paying for childcare if you don't have a child. One question I have about this is if God is so loving and forgiving why send everyone to suffer for all eternity in the first place?

Sin doesn't only exist if you believe that it does. Something has to either exist for everybody or not exist for anybody- our minds don't change the existance of something. If you were driving and you believed that the speed limit was 200 mph, that wouldn't change the fact that it was really 40 and you'd still get pulled over and get consiquences whether you believe that you went over the speed limit or not. It's the same with God's law; you get the consiquences whether you believe that the law is real or not.

God is forgiving, but forgiveness is a gift. Just like with any gift, we have to accept it. If someone tries to give you a birthday gift and you say "no thanks" and walk away, you don't get the gift, right? They're most likely not going to hold you down and force you to take the gift, but they'll still be there offering it if you change your mind and come back to get it. That's how it is with God's gift of forgiveness. He wants you to accept Jesus' sacrifice on the cross to pay the punishment for your sins to save you and forgive you once and for all, but He's not going to force you to.

[Henry Tyrell]

Originally Posted by Megan1

God is forgiving, but forgiveness is a gift. Just like with any gift, we have to accept it. If someone tries to give you a birthday gift and you say "no thanks" and walk away, you don't get the gift, right? They're most likely not going to hold you down and force you to take the gift, but they'll still be there offering it if you change your mind and come back to get it. That's how it is with God's gift of forgiveness. He wants you to accept Jesus' sacrifice on the cross to pay the punishment for your sins to save you and forgive you once and for all, but He's not going to force you to.

No, he just going to send all of us "sinners" to hell for eternity for not being lucky or blind enough to believe in one of many "true" gods. God's "forgiveness" means jack all when the alternative is torture in the basement.

[Megan1]

No, He's going to send people to hell for all their sins, not for simply not believing...believing is just the way out.

[~Mr. Self Destruct~]

Originally Posted by Megan1

No, He's going to send people to hell for all their sins, not for simply not believing...believing is just the way out.

So, theoretically, if someone asks for penance, whilst they believe, and then never commits a sin after, but becomes an atheist, what do you think happens?

[Moxie.]

Originally Posted by chickenonsteroids

I'll assume you're talking to me

Plus I understand what you're talking about yet free will doesn't make sense with an omniscient god. If he knows what we will do before he created us at what stage will he not know what we'll do since we have free will? If you're sure we have free will then nothing has to be of his will. Then that allows him to be surprised or angry but true omniscience (remember he's timeless) means he can't be angry or suprised at lucifer walking off. Free will is either a cop out or he's not omniscient and timeless.

Post verses if you want or anything else you can find that's not the bible lol

Who says God didn't know that Satan was going to leave? He may have, but part of allowing us free will is not stopping us when we choose to walk away from Him.

[Megan1]

Originally Posted by ~Mr. Self Destruct~

So, theoretically, if someone asks for penance, whilst they believe, and then never commits a sin after, but becomes an atheist, what do you think happens?

Once you are saved, that's it, you're saved forever. If you believe that you are a sinner on your way to hell, that Jesus came and died on the cross to take that punishment for you so your sin can be gone and you can go to Heaven, that He rose again 3 days later to defeat sin, and then you repent (which means recognizing that God is right and sin is bad) and confess Jesus as your Savior....then you are saved once and for all. You don't have to keep being re-saved every time you mess up. However, if you were truly saved, it's very unlikely that you would WANT to turn Athiest later. Does that make sense?

[Tapanga Paige]

I'm not trying to bash on anyone's beliefs. However religion to me sounds like a cowards way out. In stead of owning up to the fact that there is all kinds of bad shit in the world and most people don't give a rats back side about you, you believe that there is an allknowing loving and forgiving being that wants a personal relationship with you. What reason does God have to save anyone? He doesn't benefit from it does he? And of course he would only do something that takes that much effort if he benefited somehow right? Thats how we would look at it and we were created in his likeness right? So either He really truely loves and cares about each individual for no appearent reason and we weren't created just like him, or we are exactly like him and everyone is gonna be screwed when they discover his alterior motive.

[Megan1]

Originally Posted by Tapanga Paige

What reason does God have to save anyone? He doesn't benefit from it does he? And of course he would only do something that takes that much effort if he benefited somehow right?

His motive is that He loves us and wants to be with us, not let sin separate us. I know it's hard to understand why someone would love us so selflessly since people on Earth don't really do that, but God's love is so much more amazing than the love that humans can give us.