I think you restated what I said in different words. In order to prove something doesn't exist, you need to try to prove that it does exist. Failing to do so would imply that it doesn't exist.

xHolyValorx: So science and god are equal? How else can science be behind god and god be behind science? The only way I see it is that they're in a circle competing and it's a draw each time, hence, equal. However, you seem to obviously favour the side of god more, which begs the question, do you actually practice what you claim? For the most part of this thread, you've been towards the side of god yet you claim to believe that they're equal.


Also, if you want a mod to notice a rude comment by someone else, it's not too wise to go about and make a rude comment yourself. I believe the word that describes that is hypocrite?

Aren't we on-topic?

So you resort to god creating life or the big bang theory and such? I'm confused on where you stand.

Re: What proof do you want? And in turn, what proof do you have?
 

Re: What proof do you want? And in turn, what proof do you have?
 

Re: What proof do you want? And in turn, what proof do you have?
 

Re: What proof do you want? And in turn, what proof do you have?
 

Re: What proof do you want? And in turn, what proof do you have?
 

You're right, you completely misunderstood. Whether you pick one side or not is not the aim of what I was after. I was stating how you said you feel they're locked in arms. That's fine, no problem. But, I was then pointing out how throughout this entire thread, you've been favouring the god-side.

The issue is science and religion are not the same. They can go hand-in-hand, however, converting science to god seems to be favouring god. At least that's how I saw it.

Re: What proof do you want? And in turn, what proof do you have?
 

I believe that what Holly is trying to say is why couldn't it be God making the 'causes' happen and work so that the 'effect' happens. God isn't going to jump out and say, "It's me, it's me!"

Why does an earthquake happen? Well, we all know that it happens because plates beneath the earth's surface shift. There, somewhere along the lines, is an initial cause that begins the whole process of an earthquake. Why is it that 'cause', whatever it may be (I don't know, I'm not a geologist), can't have a 'cause' behind it as well that we humans aren't fully able to comprehend. Why can't it be God to begin the cycle of things like that?

Science can explain a lot of things, but the science has to begin somewhere.

Edit- What if God doesn't want us to have any proof of his existence because of the fact that he wants Christianity to be solely based on faith. I'm sure that if there is a god, he's going to know pretty well how to cover all of his tracks. If he doesn't want humans to have scientific evidence that he exists, trust me, they're not going to.

Re: What proof do you want? And in turn, what proof do you have?
 

Re: What proof do you want? And in turn, what proof do you have?
 

God wasn't created. That's the point.

Re: What proof do you want? And in turn, what proof do you have?
 

Re: What proof do you want? And in turn, what proof do you have?
 

Re: What proof do you want? And in turn, what proof do you have?
 

I don't understand what you mean. Faith as an excuse for what?

I just remembered that a little bit ago. I was actually going to put the part the I edited in the OP, but I forgot about it until a short while ago.

But... I don't get what you mean.

Re: What proof do you want? And in turn, what proof do you have?
 

Re: What proof do you want? And in turn, what proof do you have?
 

Re: What proof do you want? And in turn, what proof do you have?
 

By the same token, why couldn't it be the magical beanstalk growing on my balcony causing science? Or the invisible unicorn on my roof? We don't accept these possibilities, or the possibility of God making it all happen, because there is absolutely NO basis for it. It's just a nice idea thought up by humans to make themselves feel better when they don't understand something.

No. Science is rational and quantifiable. Science is reliable. Science can be argued against, and that's a great thing. When a scientist claims "I've found the explanation for why earthquakes happen!", other scientists rightfully demand proof, and attempt to reproduce his experiments in order to accept his theories. If they can't, then his theory is rejected. With faith, when something can't be explained, you only have the convenient answer of "Oh, it's just God's will. He doesn't want you to know."

Re: What proof do you want? And in turn, what proof do you have?
 

Alot of people think Christian are wrong.. Yes, pastors and preachers say theres no scientific proof that God exsists but Christian don't need science to prove something that is near and dear to them.. God is real whether or not you believe it.. 'Cause I know I do and so do people of faith.

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Ha ha ha ha. Check that out. :D Love it. All the people in this thread are going to say this is idiotic but I love that it was said.

Re: What proof do you want? And in turn, what proof do you have?
 

What Force/Unidentifed Alien created God.. making him greater then God

Re: What proof do you want? And in turn, what proof do you have?
 

I brought faith into the argument because it's actually a pretty significant part of Christianity.

-2 Corinthians 5:7 says, "For we walk by Faith, not by sight:"

-Luke 8:10 says, "And He said, 'To you it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is given in parables, that -Seeing they may not see, And hearing they may not understand.-' "

And in Matthew when Jesus walked on the water and invited Peter to come out with him onto the water...
-Matthew 14:29-31 says, So He said, "Come." And when Peter had come down out of the boat, he walked on the water to go to Jesus. But when he saw that the wind was boisterous, he was afraid; and beginning to sink he cried out, saying, "Lord, save me!" And immediately Jesus stretched out His hand and caught him, and said to him, "O you of little faith, why did you doubt?"

And there are so, so many more references to faith. I think it's safe to say that faith plays a pretty large part in Christianity.

Re: What proof do you want? And in turn, what proof do you have?
 

Hence Christianity is stagnant and backwards

I never said faith was not an important part but rather that it's unquantifiable and unreproducible. To quote Jessica "With faith, when something can't be explained, you only have the convenient answer of "Oh, it's just God's will. He doesn't want you to know."

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Re: What proof do you want? And in turn, what proof do you have?
 

Once again... God wasn't Created by another Form.!

Re: What proof do you want? And in turn, what proof do you have?
 

Science has provided more than enough answers and explanations to the world's mysteries. We can only push so hard against blind faith.

Re: What proof do you want? And in turn, what proof do you have?
 

Then why would we have brains to process information and form educated opinions? It seems kind of a waste to throw logic away just because it fuels the ego of a deity in the sky.

If you met an adult who believed in Santa and said Santa didn't want to prove his existence because it would take away from the magic of Christmas, what would you say?

Re: What proof do you want? And in turn, what proof do you have?
 

Right. If God is, indeed, God, he's not required to tell us anything. So what do we do if that happens to be the case? What happens if God exists, but doesn't want to have to prove his existence? Or maybe he simply can't be bothered with leaving a trail for scientists to follow and prove that he's real. Why does it have to be, if he's real, there will be proof and if he's not, there won't be any proof? What if that's not even the case?

Faith is mentioned an awful lot in the Bible, which is why I believe that no one has proven that there is a God. He doesn't want anyone to know. He wants people to believe.

Re: What proof do you want? And in turn, what proof do you have?
 

[quote=Hyper Sonic;98012]Hence Christianity is stagnant and backwards

To you yes, because you aren't Christian.. I know whats right, what I believe is right because Christians live by FAITH NOT BY SIGHT. If you wanna get into it and such.. Where did the big bang come from? where did all the thing to determine the big bang come from? I feel for the people trying to prove that the big bang made the world. I think it dumb.. Can't non-believers say that they don't think they know how it was created cuz I don't think they'll ever prove how the Earth.. It's just gonna be an everlasting battle between people of faith and non-believers.

Re: What proof do you want? And in turn, what proof do you have?
 

I would probably say that there hasn't been any toy factories found in the North Pole, so I wouldn't bet on Santa being real. "Santa" was a man named Saint Nicholas who was born in Turkey in 260AD. Here is the history of it.

Saint Nicholas doesn't exactly have the godly power of being able to hide his existence if he so chooses.

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Re: What proof do you want? And in turn, what proof do you have?
 

Well, what about the historical information that I provided you with explaining how "Santa Claus" originated? It would be difficult for someone to argue that the Santa who goes out every Christmas with a sleigh pulled by flying reindeer, who has a whole bunch of elves back at the shop making those toys for him to take to the children, is real.

Re: What proof do you want? And in turn, what proof do you have?
 

Re: What proof do you want? And in turn, what proof do you have?
 

But according to Christianity, Jesus is the son of God and was sent to Earth for the sole purpose of doing those things. And if Jesus was, indeed, God's son, God could have very easily given him the ability to walk on water, heal the sick, and many other miracles that happened, according to the Bible.

Re: What proof do you want? And in turn, what proof do you have?
 

Yes well Santa's sole purpose is to make well-behaved children happy on December 25. Santa needs the ability to make reindeer fly and fit through chimneys in order to do his job. What's the difference?

Do you realize how dangerous it is to blindly follow someone? Look what happened when people trusted and believed everything Hitler said. Wouldn't anyone offering something good be more than willing to offer proof so that more people would reap the benefits? Why would god ask people to believe in him without proof? Do you believe in anything else without proof to back it up? If I told you I have 5 heads would you confidently believe me or would you ask for a picture?

Re: What proof do you want? And in turn, what proof do you have?
 

By obeying and executing out what you claim to believe.

Wouldn't it make more sense for this god to give some proof of his existence to have more followers? If there is proof, then wouldn't people believe more and more strongly?



The theory of evolution can provide one answer for why we have brains, how we acquired them, etc... .

I would ask him/her for proof then after him/her saying they had none, Santa doesn't want that, then I'd ignore them and not believe in it myself.



This.

Re: What proof do you want? And in turn, what proof do you have?
 

I don't think you're understanding that Santa Claus is widely known as being made-up because of the KNOWN history of how it was made up. Did you read anything on the link that I gave you?

"Saint Nicholas was born in 260AD in Patara, a coastal town in what is now Turkey. The poor knew him throughout the land for his generosity, his love for children and being associated with ships, the sea and sailors. He was eventually consecrated Bishop of Myra, just miles from his hometown.
Our western tradition of Santa Claus and Father Christmas originates with the beloved saint. Many Christian churches and many countries observe December 6th, his feast day, with great celebrations, processions, services and gift giving."

^Santa Claus originated with all of that, and is therefore, known to not be real. So Santa Claus doesn't make a very good argument.

Back to the faith thing... God wants his followers simply to believe in him and trust him. The Bible goes on and on about faith. And the Bible is what God wants us to live by. If the religion itself wasn't based on a foundation of faith, yeah, I'd want some proof. But since there is so much talk of how important faith is in the Bible, I believe that God, once again, wants his followers to have faith and trust in him, not ask for proof.

Re: What proof do you want? And in turn, what proof do you have?
 

Sure, it would make more sense if all God was worried about was the quantity of followers. God wants his followers to believe in him and trust him. If he reveals himself, people will only believe in him because it's been proven and they pretty much have to.

Example: I'd rather have a friend that believes me when I tell them something rather than a friend who I have to constantly display proof. With any relationship, there needs to be trust.

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You're ignoring my point on technicalities. So, forget Santa. If someone said they believed there is a pot of gold at the end of every rainbow but nobody can find them because they don't want to be found, what would you say?


Yes, but WHY is faith so important? WHY does god want you to have faith? And would you believe me if I said I have 5 heads? You aren't answering any of my questions.

Re: What proof do you want? And in turn, what proof do you have?
 

I would say that's ridiculous. A pot of gold doesn't want to be found? Huh?

Faith is so important because if God just pops out and says, "I exist. Everyone believe in me now, okay?", the person's love and trust for him will be minimized to simply, "Well, it's been proven that God exists, so I guess I'll believe in him so I can go to heaven." Quality, not quantity. Just because him showing himself real will bring more believers doesn't mean that it will bring more devoted beilevers.

The argument of why, if there is a god, he doesn't just show himself and whether or not you have five heads don't exactly compare. If you had five heads, you'd have proof, and would be able to show me a picture if you wanted, but a picture of you with five heads isn't going to determine my eternity, so I'm not all that worried about that.

Re: What proof do you want? And in turn, what proof do you have?
 

If you're using the same stipulations as with the Santa thing and in your question, the pot of gold is able to think and doesn't want to be found, making it voided idea.

If god cannot/does not want to prove himself yet wants you to believe, what else is there aside from believing without evidence, aside from not believing? I'd say show me legit, non-photoshopped pictures, otherwise it's a lie.

Re: What proof do you want? And in turn, what proof do you have?
 

How is that any more ridiculous than god not wanting to be proved that he exists?


Why is a person's devotion dependent on faith? When you have a friend that you trust it is because you've been able to get to know them and have logically found them to be a trustworthy person. You wouldn't trust someone you've never talked to, which is what god is the equivalent of.

And even if god was proven to exist that doesn't mean everyone would follow him. Only people who agreed with his guidelines or whatever would probably follow him.

What if I said my 5 heads were invisible but that they existed? How is that any different than god saying he exists but won't prove it?

And again, since you didn't answer it the first time, why someone who has something good to offer not want to prove it so that everyone can reap the benefits of it? Wouldn't a good person/entity do everything they could to help everyone to heaven?

Re: What proof do you want? And in turn, what proof do you have?
 

I don't understand what you're trying to say. Could you explain it a bit?


Nothing?



That's my point. People ask for evidence of everything, but for some reason god is exempt from that. It doesn't make any sense.