What proof do you want? And in turn, what proof do you have?

[InSovietRussiaORGASMGotU]

Originally Posted by suniesha

The quote in Jeremiah is re-insurance, if you believe you know GOD can handle anything. I mean He's also a Jealous GOD, when you get save you're supposed to worship Him and nothing else, so when you worship other things like t.v. for example.. He gets jealous.

And the adultery contradiction? That one you seemed to have completely ignored. So, look at the contradictions again and if you can, attempt to reason them out without giving irrelevant babble. I find it hard for an all-loving, kind god to be a jealous god, woops, that may be another contradiction in the making.

Originally Posted by R.K.

Right... so Bigfoots, fairies, leprechauns, werewolves, vampires, ghosts, FSM & ALL OTHER GODS currently worshiped exist as well ALL AT ONCE because if they didn't exist it's obviously the debate would have ended long time ago.

Originally Posted by Ariel

lol that was mean..

No, he's using pastor_of_youth's faulty logic and showing why/how it is faulty.

[I ♥ Jehovah Shalom!]

I didn't see that one, I'm on my phone, so I don't see ALL of it.

[Grizabella]

Originally Posted by suniesha

I didn't see that one, I'm on my phone, so I don't see ALL of it.

Then why not hold off responding until you have time to fully read and understand a post?

[Algernon]

Originally Posted by Grizabella

Then why not hold off responding until you have time to fully read and understand a post?

Cause people will think you're backing down :P Come on. the Teenhelpers in the religion/spirituality forum have to be soldiers. Seriously.

[Blackwing]

Originally Posted by xHolyValorx

Cause people will think you're backing down :P Come on. the Teenhelpers in the religion/spirituality forum have to be soldiers. Seriously.

I am on my phone 99% of the time as well but keep post short so fingers don't get tired

[InSovietRussiaORGASMGotU]

Originally Posted by suniesha

I didn't see that one, I'm on my phone, so I don't see ALL of it.

More lame excuses...

Originally Posted by xHolyValorx

Cause people will think you're backing down :P Come on. the Teenhelpers in the religion/spirituality forum have to be soldiers. Seriously.

They have to have intelligence, ability to right coherently and not contradict themselves every other post. And yes, if you don't respond, it may seem like you're backing down, however, just take a bit more time, go to a computer and answer. Not a very difficult task. Also, I have to wonder, are you defending her because you're of the same faith?

[Grizabella]

Ok lol, back to the discussion, whatever it was before. I honestly don't really remember what this thread is about. But I'm sure it's not about talking on the phone and typing at the same time lol.

[Double X]

I can kinda understand Agnostics, but organized religion...eh. Do you think you would have been a baptist if you were born in Siberia? I think many organized religions are too culture based, and that influences your faith more than anything else. If any of you religious people were born in Yemen, I bet you would be muslims.

[Algernon]

Originally Posted by Double X

I can kinda understand Agnostics, but organized religion...eh. Do you think you would have been a baptist if you were born in Siberia? I think many organized religions are too culture based, and that influences your faith more than anything else. If any of you religious people were born in Yemen, I bet you would be muslims.

I actually agree with you. Organized religion has become a "society" where you are either accepted or disapproved of. I've learned that some people accept you for who you are. As a person. And others accept you based on how little or how much "sinning" you do. Organized religion has it's ups and downs. I don't go as much as I used to... Maybe because of the acceptance issue, I'm not sure.

[Algernon]

Originally Posted by YourNightmare

More lame excuses...



They have to have intelligence, ability to right coherently and not contradict themselves every other post. And yes, if you don't respond, it may seem like you're backing down, however, just take a bit more time, go to a computer and answer. Not a very difficult task. Also, I have to wonder, are you defending her because you're of the same faith?

No. And It's not fair to assume that I'm defending her because she's of my
faith. I didn't even defend her, I made a point.

I've noticed that the most controversial debates are usually only held up by the intelligent, sophisticated, and open-minded people on TH. Don't you notice that it's usually the same people on the forum? It's Gram Negative, YouNightmare, Grizabella, Chelsea-Marie, Double X... See what I mean? If anyone takes you seriously in this forum you have to be educated, or you get stomped out :P

[Gram Negative]

Originally Posted by suniesha

I don't but you could.

Huh? Then what would you call that?

[InSovietRussiaORGASMGotU]

Originally Posted by xHolyValorx

No. And It's not fair to assume that I'm defending her because she's of my
faith. I didn't even defend her, I made a point.

I've noticed that the most controversial debates are usually only held up by the intelligent, sophisticated, and open-minded people on TH. Don't you notice that it's usually the same people on the forum? It's Gram Negative, YouNightmare, Grizabella, Chelsea-Marie, Double X... See what I mean? If anyone takes you seriously in this forum you have to be educated, or you get stomped out :P

Any other TH member can come and debate in here. However, if they cant keep up mentally, then it somewhat sifts out the stupider ones. I don't know what you expect me to say. Yes, the intelligent ones typically give the controversial debates. If you want, make a thread for the less intelligent ones. I see what you mean: the smarter people and usually the more regular ones can give a good debate, the stupider ones cannot.

If you're less educated, then you tend to give lamer responses or just dance around the question, or even contradict yourself. If you are not so bright but you don't do those things, then you don't get stomped out as much.

The smarter ones win

[Hyper Sonic]

Originally Posted by YourNightmare

Any other TH member can come and debate in here. However, if they cant keep up mentally, then it somewhat sifts out the stupider ones. I don't know what you expect me to say. Yes, the intelligent ones typically give the controversial debates. If you want, make a thread for the less intelligent ones. I see what you mean: the smarter people and usually the more regular ones can give a good debate, the stupider ones cannot.

If you're less educated, then you tend to give lamer responses or just dance around the question, or even contradict yourself. If you are not so bright but you don't do those things, then you don't get stomped out as much.

The smarter ones win

Kinda like natural selection

[Gram Negative]

Uhhhh... I donno about that. I would be more pleased if a person actually looked into what I say than making them look stupid.

[Youth Pastor]

The "stupid" ones and "intelligent" ones is something I don't see as encouraging for this site. The "intelligent" ones probably have a more philosophical mindset and are able to debate on a higher level. It's not anyone else's fault that some people can't hold up to that. On the flip side there is something the "stupid" ones can do that the "intelligent" ones can't which makes us all equal and not better than anyone. I put everything in quotes to show the equality on this site.
The existence of God is something that will be debated until Christ comes back. For anyone who has been saved knows that God is real because of the feeling either as you were praying or afterwards of the relief of burden. However, because we can't see Him it's obvious people debate it. There is historical evidence, written documents (Josephus) outside of the Bible talking about Christ, and also the Bible was written over a span of thousands of years with a 400 year gap in between the OT and NT. Science also supports the Bible in ways and I'm aware that people also think it's contradicting. Here are a few ways science supports it.

[Gram Negative]

Originally Posted by pastor_of_youth

http://www.clarifyingchristianity.com/science.shtml

That website is bs "Yet, no scientific, provable evidence supporting the theory of evolution has emerged since Charles Darwin popularized it in 1859."
http://www.clarifyingchristianity.com/creation.shtml

I just read that website and it straight up LIES about scientific facts. You wanna debate that? That stuff is a cakewalk compared to virology and physical chemistry.

I find that a 100% ignorant statement considering the fact that I am going to be graduating with BS in Biochemistry and Biotechnology and the fact that 99% of scientists understand and accept the theory of evolution.

Sorry but now I will say it: That website is for STUPID people that do not understand science or it's for people full of blind faith. Sadly there are scientists that straight up said that they had to ignore their scientific knowledge.

[Youth Pastor]

I've heard science only goes so far in explaining creation and then they stop because they can't explain some things. Is that true?

[Blackwing]

Some users also don't want to take the time and write a full page of something No one will want to read..

[Gram Negative]

Originally Posted by pastor_of_youth

I've heard science only goes so far in explaining creation and then they stop because they can't explain some things. Is that true?

Yes, they stop until more evidence is presented to support a certain hypothesis. This goes for abiogenesis which is currently made up of various hypothesises that still need more evidence and support to become theories like evolution.

However, science never stops trying to explain the world. The difference is that it doesn't say that "THIS IS THE LAW", unlike religion.

[Hyper Sonic]

Originally Posted by pastor_of_youth

I've heard science only goes so far in explaining creation and then they stop because they can't explain some things. Is that true?

Science's knowledge at the moment goes back to Planck Time after the universe came into being. However, science never stops looking for the answers. It was only about 100 years ago that the "plum pudding" model of the atom was proved wrong by Rutherford. I trust that science will find the answer especially since top scientists are no longer silenced by religion

Short posts do not mean poor posts, there is a lot to be said for conciseness, besides 1680 and 1440 are both wide monitors making what seems like an essay in quick reply only a paragraph

[InSovietRussiaORGASMGotU]

Originally Posted by Hyper Sonic

Kinda like natural selection

That...that's like... a mechanism of evolution...

Originally Posted by pastor_of_youth

The "stupid" ones and "intelligent" ones is something I don't see as encouraging for this site. The "intelligent" ones probably have a more philosophical mindset and are able to debate on a higher level. It's not anyone else's fault that some people can't hold up to that. On the flip side there is something the "stupid" ones can do that the "intelligent" ones can't which makes us all equal and not better than anyone. I put everything in quotes to show the equality on this site.


http://www.clarifyingchristianity.com/science.shtml

No, I'm sure intelligent ones can also do that. The intelligent ones may also have more academic knowledge, especially on the science side.

"Think it's contradicting"? No, it IS contradicting.

I'm not going to bother to say how inaccurate and horrible their arguments are on that website.

Originally Posted by pastor_of_youth

I've heard science only goes so far in explaining creation and then they stop because they can't explain some things. Is that true?

They don't stop and give up. Research is still being conducted, partially because it takes effort to describe the mechanisms rather than say someone (i.e. god) did it.

Originally Posted by EDGE

Some users also don't want to take the time and write a full page of something No one will want to read..

Very true.

[Youth Pastor]

Originally Posted by Gram Negative

Sorry but now I will say it: That website is for STUPID people that do not understand science or it's for people full of blind faith. Sadly there are scientists that straight up said that they had to ignore their scientific knowledge.

I'm just trying to have a mature debate on a topic that I honestly want to hear other people's opinions. It seems though every time I state one I turn out to be stupid for it. I want to know why people believe what they believe. I'm just trying to help, not be stupid. Sorry mods if this is getting crazy.

[Gram Negative]

Originally Posted by pastor_of_youth

I'm just trying to have a mature debate on a topic that I honestly want to hear other people's opinions. It seems though every time I state one I turn out to be stupid for it. I want to know why people believe what they believe. I'm just trying to help, not be stupid. Sorry mods if this is getting crazy.

Ok then, where would you like to start? Evolution? Or the concept of science in general? I actually wanted to make a sticky thread in this forum where I would explain all the basics of science but never got around to it.

[Youth Pastor]

What about a Creation vs. Evolution discussion? Non-Christians could state there belief on how the Earth was created and Christians could back up their beliefs on how God created the earth. The sensitive thing here is to not jump on other beliefs. This will be just a this is what we believe thread and hopefully we can keep up with each other as far as topics go.

[I ♥ Jehovah Shalom!]

I'm not making excuses, 1 it's true and 2 it dumb cuz ppl r gonna argue and argue and argue and hey, how bout some more arguing to the point where it turnes into a full circle cuz everyones gonna believe what they believe.

[InSovietRussiaORGASMGotU]

Originally Posted by pastor_of_youth

I'm just trying to have a mature debate on a topic that I honestly want to hear other people's opinions. It seems though every time I state one I turn out to be stupid for it. I want to know why people believe what they believe. I'm just trying to help, not be stupid. Sorry mods if this is getting crazy.

The problem is if you're using that website you gave to educate yourself. It's warped science completely and is utter garbage. If you want to debate, then you'll need to understand that proof is needed from reliable sources. Otherwise, it's disregarded. I'm all for having a mature debate, in fact, I do like them, however, science (especially evolution) and religion tends to have the science person understand evolution while the religious one not and religion gets applied to science. That's where it almost always goes to shit.

If it's about science, myself, Gram Negative, Hyper Sonic and too many others to list are in university studying science, although each with a bit of a different focus academically. If it's about evolution or science in general, I'm all for it.

I'm not making excuses, 1 it's true and 2 it dumb cuz ppl r gonna argue and argue and argue and hey, how bout some more arguing to the point where it turnes into a full circle cuz everyones gonna believe what they believe.

Saying it was on your phone, you couldn't see all of it, blah blah blah, is an excuse. Yes, people are going to debate. Would you rather have nobody debate, nobody challenge anyone else's beliefs? If so, then have fun with getting some progress.

[Gram Negative]

Originally Posted by pastor_of_youth

What about a Creation vs. Evolution discussion? Non-Christians could state there belief on how the Earth was created and Christians could back up their beliefs on how God created the earth. The sensitive thing here is to not jump on other beliefs. This will be just a this is what we believe thread and hopefully we can keep up with each other as far as topics go.

Except it seems both sides will use completely different parameters.

I have spent entire threads talking about basic scientific principles that have nothing to do with evolution. That is how rediculous it gets. How am I supposed to debate evolution when the people I talk to don't know what a hypothesis is, a theory, how the scientific method works, where new hypotheses come from, etc.

Originally Posted by suniesha

I'm not making excuses, 1 it's true and 2 it dumb cuz ppl r gonna argue and argue and argue and hey, how bout some more arguing to the point where it turnes into a full circle cuz everyones gonna believe what they believe.

Is it true because the Bible says it's true?

[Youth Pastor]

So I guess the conclusion would be agree to disagree.

[Gram Negative]

Originally Posted by pastor_of_youth

So I guess the conclusion would be agree to disagree.

Not exactly. One side is just not very knowledgeable about science which would sadly include most of the population. That also takes into account that most people don't know sh!t about medicine. So when it comes to medicine who are you going to listen to? When it comes to science who are you going to listen to? The few quacks that literally oppose everything from top scholars?

And yes there are doctors that will literally deny medical care to people for religious reasons which is 100% unethical.

[I ♥ Jehovah Shalom!]

And yes there are doctors that will literally deny medical care to people for religious reasons which is 100% unethical.[/quote]

I've heard of that and I disagree with that b/c no one should be turned down b/c of their religion.

And I think its true b/c of what I believe and the bible. And yournightmare I don't mean to be rude, I just always have to deal with this and it gets really hard to always defend what you believe when numerous people come at you at the same time. Not just on here but in my school and everything.

[Youth Pastor]

Originally Posted by suniesha

t gets really hard to always defend what you believe when numerous people come at you at the same time.

It does get frustrating when it appears we get dirt throw in our face for believing but this is what Christ talked about is the world hating us Christians. However, I wonder how many Christians want to cram religion down people's throats so much that we wind up throwing the dirt. I'm definitely not this type of Christian and some people on TH have seen that.

[Blackwing]

Originally Posted by suniesha

And yes there are doctors that will literally deny medical care to people for religious reasons which is 100% unethical.

I've heard of that and I disagree with that b/c no one should be turned down b/c of their religion.

And I think its true b/c of what I believe and the bible. And yournightmare I don't mean to be rude, I just always have to deal with this and it gets really hard to always defend what you believe when numerous people come at you at the same time. Not just on here but in my school and everything.[/quote]

There will always be people who disagree with you and there will be people who agree with you its a part of life. Some just take it personally.

[Gram Negative]

Originally Posted by suniesha

I've heard of that and I disagree with that b/c no one should be turned down b/c of their religion.

But it's okay to ignore science because of one's religion?

Originally Posted by suniesha

And I think its true b/c of what I believe and the bible.

But that doesn't make it true. From a personal point it might be true but from a logical and reasonable standpoint it all depends on faith.

Originally Posted by pastor_of_youth

It does get frustrating when it appears we get dirt throw in our face for believing but this is what Christ talked about is the world hating us Christians. However, I wonder how many Christians want to cram religion down people's throats so much that we wind up throwing the dirt. I'm definitely not this type of Christian and some people on TH have seen that.

Christ never told you to put faith above everything else or ignore everything that contradicts your beliefs.

[Youth Pastor]

The thing that Christ did tell us to put above anything was others before ourselves. On dealing with faith, yes that is important, but something greater than that is love which is what I hope us Christians get across on this site. We knew what it was like to be without Christ and know what it's like with Christ and there is a difference. You're right that Christ never told us to back down. Anyone who knows anything about Christ knows He didn't back down, even to the death on the cross when He could have prevented that. He didn't even back down from death because He rose three days later and there are witnesses for that also.

[Gram Negative]

Originally Posted by pastor_of_youth

The thing that Christ did tell us to put above anything was ourselves as Christians. On dealing with faith, yes that is important, but something greater than that is love which is what I hope us Christians get across on this site. We knew what it was like to be without Christ and know what it's like with Christ and there is a difference. You're right that Christ never told us to back down. Anyone who knows anything about Christ knows He didn't back down, even to the death on the cross when He could have prevented that. He didn't even back down from death because He rose three days later and there are witnesses for that also.

Where exactly does it say that you should put faith above everything?

Just because Christ didn't back down doesn't mean you should ignore everything that is logical, rational, and backed up by concrete empirical evidence. Do not compare your situation with Christ; the two have nothing in common with each other. There are Christian Scientists that ignore medicine and let their kids die. You are following the same logic when it comes to ignoring scientific ideas that contradict your beliefs.

And please don't start with the witnesses. The majority of the Bible isn't accepted even in philosophical classes as a reliable source unless of course parts of it are supported by independent sources from history.

[InSovietRussiaORGASMGotU]

Originally Posted by suniesha

And yes there are doctors that will literally deny medical care to people for religious reasons which is 100% unethical.

I've heard of that and I disagree with that b/c no one should be turned down b/c of their religion.

And I think its true b/c of what I believe and the bible. And yournightmare I don't mean to be rude, I just always have to deal with this and it gets really hard to always defend what you believe when numerous people come at you at the same time. Not just on here but in my school and everything.[/quote]

Right, so the bible says it's true, therefore, it must be true? The bible says god exists because god says he exists, therefore, it must be true that god exists? That second question is circular reasoning at its best.

Unfortunately, it's not my problem nor do I really care how your life outside of TH is. This is a debate, not a soap opera. Perhaps if you listened to why you're being ridiculed on here, you can apply that outside of TH.

Originally Posted by pastor_of_youth

It does get frustrating when it appears we get dirt throw in our face for believing but this is what Christ talked about is the world hating us Christians. However, I wonder how many Christians want to cram religion down people's throats so much that we wind up throwing the dirt. I'm definitely not this type of Christian and some people on TH have seen that.

Don't act like you're the only group who gets dirt in their faces. Atheists get quite a lot as well. Trust me, a hell of a lot ram religion down people's throats. I'd go as far as to say the majority does, whether they want to or if it's simply a casual debate and it ends up happening.

What about a Creation vs. Evolution discussion? Non-Christians could state there belief on how the Earth was created and Christians could back up their beliefs on how God created the earth. The sensitive thing here is to not jump on other beliefs. This will be just a this is what we believe thread and hopefully we can keep up with each other as far as topics go.

I've been in these types of debates, and it is rare that I'll find a christian who not only knows what evolution, the scientific method, etc.. are, but can look at it objectively without putting their beliefs into the mix. I'd love to debate creation vs. evolution, however, before starting, you have to educate both sides on the faith or science. That alone can be frustrating as it usually can lead to shoving stuff down people's throats.

If one side doesn't understand evolution or faith in some detail, then the debate will fail because one or both sides are going "LALALALALALA not listening" and that's not an objective debate. I can honestly say, as can be seen on TH, some christians automatically reject scientific theories before even entering the debate. Therefore, there's a huge bias to be overcome which usually results in a fail. The same applies to atheists who reject faith.

I think that educating both sides, in person or online, is very difficult.

The next thing to understand is that science demands proof, faith does not. Therefore, if I give proof, then you are usually expected to counter it with proof, however, that isn't always the case; it's faith, hence, non-proof. In an objective debate, that is disregarded immediately. If it is a subjective debate, then proof isn't valued a lot and so, it becomes rather pointless.

I have a few christian friends at university, in biology, and they are the exception. They understand science and their faith very well, accept both, don't contradict and can debate and analyze each independently. That is what makes for an excellent candidate to debate with, along with no insults no preaching, no converting, etc... .

Either someone writes up a very detailed post or gives good links to describe the scientific method, evolution, etc..., faith, god, etc..., or we're starting off on uneven and unstable terms, which is bound to make the debate unstable.

[Algernon]

Originally Posted by pastor_of_youth

It does get frustrating when it appears we get dirt throw in our face for believing but this is what Christ talked about is the world hating us Christians. However, I wonder how many Christians want to cram religion down people's throats so much that we wind up throwing the dirt. I'm definitely not this type of Christian and some people on TH have seen that.

Ha ha. I used to be the "1 Christian Fanatic" on TH. This site is a training ground, and you have to use everything in your power to attain peoples intrigue, attention, and sometimes respect (If you can earn it) I believe I was 13 when I joined TH. I'm now 18.

I understand what you mean by "dirt" it's always going to be there, and understand it's not our faults. It's the fault of the "religious"

[Algernon]

Again... The Evolution Vs. Creation debate is overrated. I'll end that now. Both sides are correct.

Something must be created for something to evolve.

We obviously have proof of evolution, and there couldn't be evolution without some form of creation, therefore, end of subject. Case dismissed.[/size][/font]

[InSovietRussiaORGASMGotU]

Originally Posted by xHolyValorx

Right, so the bible says it's true, therefore, it must be true? The bible says god exists because god says he exists, therefore, it must be true that god exists? That second question is circular reasoning at its best.

Unfortunately, it's not my problem nor do I really care how your life outside of TH is. This is a debate, not a soap opera. Perhaps if you listened to why you're being ridiculed on here, you can apply that outside of TH.



Don't act like you're the only group who gets dirt in their faces. Atheists get quite a lot as well. Trust me, a hell of a lot ram religion down people's throats. I'd go as far as to say the majority does, whether they want to or if it's simply a casual debate and it ends up happening.



I've been in these types of debates, and it is rare that I'll find a christian who not only knows what evolution, the scientific method, etc.. are, but can look at it objectively without putting their beliefs into the mix. I'd love to debate creation vs. evolution, however, before starting, you have to educate both sides on the faith or science. That alone can be frustrating as it usually can lead to shoving stuff down people's throats.

If one side doesn't understand evolution or faith in some detail, then the debate will fail because one or both sides are going "LALALALALALA not listening" and that's not an objective debate. I can honestly say, as can be seen on TH, some christians automatically reject scientific theories before even entering the debate. Therefore, there's a huge bias to be overcome which usually results in a fail. The same applies to atheists who reject faith.

I think that educating both sides, in person or online, is very difficult.

The next thing to understand is that science demands proof, faith does not. Therefore, if I give proof, then you are usually expected to counter it with proof, however, that isn't always the case; it's faith, hence, non-proof. In an objective debate, that is disregarded immediately. If it is a subjective debate, then proof isn't valued a lot and so, it becomes rather pointless.

I have a few christian friends at university, in biology, and they are the exception. They understand science and their faith very well, accept both, don't contradict and can debate and analyze each independently. That is what makes for an excellent candidate to debate with, along with no insults no preaching, no converting, etc... .

Either someone writes up a very detailed post or gives good links to describe the scientific method, evolution, etc..., faith, god, etc..., or we're starting off on uneven and unstable terms, which is bound to make the debate unstable.

Again... The Evolution Vs. Creation debate never pans out. I'll end that now. Both sides are correct.

Something must be created for something to evolve.

We obviously have proof of evolution, and there couldn't be evolution without some form of creation, therefore, end of subject. Case dismissed.[/quote]

Quote buttons not working properly?

Anyways, bolded part: attempting to say christianity explains the creation and disregarding the big bang? I'm unclear as to what exactly you mean by "some form of creation", which form? If it's big bang, then creationists aren't doing too well. If it's christianity, then it's currently a draw until science finds more information, which it's currently doing.

[Algernon]

Originally Posted by YourNightmare

Again... The Evolution Vs. Creation debate never pans out. I'll end that now. Both sides are correct.

Something must be created for something to evolve.

We obviously have proof of evolution, and there couldn't be evolution without some form of creation, therefore, end of subject. Case dismissed.

Quote buttons not working properly?

Anyways, bolded part: attempting to say christianity explains the creation and disregarding the big bang? I'm unclear as to what exactly you mean by "some form of creation", which form? If it's big bang, then creationists aren't doing too well. If it's christianity, then it's currently a draw until science finds more information, which it's currently doing.[/quote]

It's late, this will (I put this'll first, lol) be my last post for the night...

My point exactly, it's a draw, and both sides are correct. It doesn't matter how it was created because it's still creation. Something, I believe God did, created the Earth. And how do we not know that Gods power is actually the power of science, hmmm? Sorry, I'm sleepy.