Sex and Religion
 

so just to start off im Catholic. i recently got into my first relationship because of it and because of some of the things we did a few nights ago i got into thinking about sex and my religion. idk what to believe anymore. like i always thought all kinds of sex and pleasuring was bad and against religon. although i know alot of people who are religious and yet have sex...some of them alot. but it just got me wondering.....is oral sex against my religon? like will it make god hate me?

Re: Sex and Religion
 

Hey there Izzie and right off the bat I just want to say that it absolutely will not make god hate. I was taught that god does not judge you and is very forgiving. To me it just depends on your morals and what you believe. If you believe that sex is horrible and against the bible then that's what you have set in your mind. If you don't then you don't. Personally I find sex okay and I have nothing against those who are against it. So you kind of have to ask yourself what you believe and then go from there. Hope I helped.

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Considering that Catholism doesn't even allow the use of condoms within marriage, I'm going to assume you shouldn't be having oral sex out of marriage.

With Sex and Religion, Im a non-denominational Christian. I have sex, I don't particularly think I should, but I've got a bit laxed on this topic in recent years. Before I was a total right-wing Baptist, waiting till marriage. From what I understood the reason of waiting was, suggests to me that all sexual acts, including oral sex, were to be refrained from.

I don't think God's going to hate you, but I would remain abstinent till you decide where you stand on the topic.

Re: Sex and Religion
 

I know that catholicism is strict, but for normal (Bit of a weird term, isn't it? I'm sure you know what I mean..) christianity I follow abstinence and would more or less do anything other than sex if I had been with the person for long enough. I don't suppose that I should, but I can't imagine myself being able to last without anything, and I do feel bad for that.

To answer the question though. Oral sex is probably at your stage in catholicism (before marriage) frowned upon but will not make God hate you, by any stretch of the imagination.

Re: Sex and Religion
 

Catholicism isn't at all strict compared to a lot of protestant groups, it's just that when you have celibate Vatican cardinals deciding what's right or wrong you end up with some weird opinions...

On the question of sex, good/bad just rely on the bible for this. Remember that the Vatican has a track record of mixing up human and religious ideas.

Re: Sex and Religion
 

I am not Catholic but Jesus said that if you even look at someone with lust that you committed adultery in your heart (Matthew 5:28). And thou shalt not commit adultery is one of the 10 commandments (Exodus 20:14). So if simply looking at someone with lust is a sin, then certainly oral sex is a sin. The Bible also warns that people who indulge in sensuality and sexual immorality will not inherit eternal life but will be cast into the hell (Galatians 5:20,21). Is oral sex a form of sexual immorality? Certainly. Is it sensuality? Definitely. The Bible also tells us that those who are Christians are not to even have a HINT of sexual immorality named among them (Ephesians 5:3). Not even a HINT. So to tell you it is okay, would be wrong. Just because people do it, does not make it right. There are many hypocrites in the church. If people go on sinning in such away, you can almost be certain that they are not saved. When you are saved you are a new creation (2 Corinthians 5:17, therefore you CANNOT keep on sinning deliberately(1 John 3:6).

However, I am not Catholic, I am Protestant. I do not believe that you are saved by faith + works. I believe your are saved by faith alone through grace alone (Ephesians 2:8-9). The warnings of sexual immorality are there so that if you are indulging in these things without regret, remorse, or repentance than you are NOT saved and you can be sure of it so that your heart does not deceive you (1 John 3:6). If we are saved by works, we have something to boast about, but boasting is excluded from salvation (Romans 3:27) because of the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross and His resurrection (John 19:30). If work was needed for salvation then Christ died for nothing (Galatians 2:21). However, works make it evident that we are saved (James, Ephesians 2:10). Therefore because He died and if you believe you need not worry about being sent to hell because, he that believeth is not condemned (John 3:18).

Do not ask if it is against Catholicism or religion, but if it is against a holy, just, and righteous God. You're religion will not judge you, God will.

However, it is important to note... God is always gracious to receive sinners, but He hates sin. Therefore will He hate you? I am uncertain. It is clear God is a God of love, for He sent His Son, but He also said He loved Jacob, but Esau He hated (Malachi 1:3, Romans 9:13). One thing is certain, though He despises sin... He is gracious and mighty to save us from the coming wrath. I will note this: If you are on a faith + works salvation like much Catholicism teaches, God is not happy. He is in fact furious. He satisfied everything on Christ and you are saying that your works can save you. This is something that needs repenting of.

Re: Sex and Religion
 

You see I have a sort of problem with this sort of literal reading of the bible. If looking lustfully at someone (which is something all of us have done at some point) amounts to adultery, then you effectively belittle every sin committable. I mean, you could also take the rest literally:

It has been said, 'Anyone who divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce.' But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, causes her to become an adulteress, and anyone who marries the divorced woman commits adultery. (Matthew 5:31)

But then a lot of people would be queuing up for hell, wouldn't they? Not to mention the implicit suggestion that a woman's actions are the consequences of her husband's decisions...

Re: Sex and Religion
 

okay so everyone's responses were making me feel alittle better until Michael.'s.....and now i feel completely unfixable and like i have no option but going to hell at this point.....and i havent even done that much "terrible" things. but what i have done just makes me feel like im a terrible person

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like i can kinda agree with that and idk the exact verse or sentences but i think there is also something in the bible that says something about misbehaving children should be stoned as punishment.

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one more thing. if just thinking about someone sexually is a sin isnt kissing and making out lustful and therefore sinful? so isnt EVERYONE going to hell? because i have not known one person in my entire life to get married to someone without ever kissing them before hand

Re: Sex and Religion
 

Well I'll answer sparkles first.

Sparkles go on and read my response to Union, as it may help you understand more aswell.

However, first of all the verse you are talking about was indeed a law of the old testament covenant, we are no longer under that law, but under grace (Romans 6:14). God designed the previous laws for specific reasons, not all clarified, however, it was more or less to keep His chosen people safe and He demanded perfection in order that He could be among His people.

However... again I go more into this on the response of Unions post, you should feel horrible as if you have no choice but to go to hell. This is the point of the law. It is to lead us to Christ. If you truly feel horrible look upon Christ. Jesus says in John 3:14 that just as Moses lifted the serpent up in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up. The snake in the old testament was one Moses put in place so that if anyone were bitten by a snake, they would look upon the snake and be healed. In order to be cleansed from our sins we must trust in Christ sacrifice. Look at John 3:14, Jesus says the Son of Man MUST be lifted up. It wasn't an option. Christ was needed because we could not save ourselves. Christ died in place for your sins so that this guilt and condemnation you are feeling is put away with. Christ satisfied the wrath of God and when you believe this you will be saved and when you believe this you will repent and you will no longer want these sexual things because you'll want to commit your spiritual act of worship (Romans 12:1) by obedience to Christ because He died for you and took the punishment that you deserve. Nothing you can do will save you, the only thing that can is the precious blood of Christ that He spilled out for you so that you can not only escape hell but be in a relationship with the living God forever. If you believe this open a bible to Psalms 51 pray this to God and cry out for mercy on your soul for the countless sins you have committed against Him and to God thank Him for His Son to save you from your sins. Christ died while we were sinners in order that we can be reconciled with Him. There is literally nothing you can do to be saved. Just trust Christ sufficiency and the Bible promises we will not be put to shame. Don't fear, UNLESS you continue in your sin without remorse, because then it is evident that you are more than likely not saved... just rest in the finished work of Christ and praise Him... repent from your sins for what He has done.

A lot of people? Everyone is queuing up for hell because all have sinned (Romans 6:23). Salvation is NOT based on works (Ephesians 2:8-9). Everyone is on their way to hell unless they repent and believe that Jesus satisfied the Fathers wrath and when you believe (John 3:16) your sins will be pardoned (Hebrews 8:12). Any other way into Heaven is impossible because the LORD is so righteous that no one can achieve His demands of perfection to be holy just as He is holy (1 Peter 1:16). Therefore God satisfied His wrath to reconcile sinners to Himself to all who believe. So to answer your question, everyone is going to hell unless they repent and believe (Mark 1:15). The good works produce once you are saved because you realize how gracious God was to save you so you desire NOT to sin, but not sinning will never save you. The law is perfect in converting the soul (Psalms 19:7) and serves only as a school master to lead people to Christ so that we realize it is by faith (Galatians 3:24) in Christ that we are saved and not works.

The reason why they are directed at women is because He was talking to the Pharisees which were all men. Women back then did not have an equal standing with men in society, so although they are directed at the husbands decisions it works likewise both ways. Paul says later on in his letter to the church in Corinth that if one or the other is an unbeliever than you are not bound to these standards. He even says that if the man wants to go and the wife is a believer and the man isn't, that the wife should let him go (1 Corinthians 7).

Also even in standard English we refer to a person as he or she when we are referring to someone. If I were to say for example, "My classmate lost their pencil." This would be improper for it should say, "My classmate lost his pencil." There are some threats such as "If any man looks at a woman in lust he has committed adultery in his heart." Now does this means women are excluded from the statement? Not at all. It can be implied that even if a woman looks at a man in lust that she has become an adulteress in her heart. It's important to look at who the commands were directed at and why. The Bible isn't written to us specifically but it is written for us. For example, if I wrote a note to someone saying "I am going to kill you on such and such a day." Now, this person is going to give this note to the police to warn them and hopefully get a response from them. The same is with the Bible, though it is not written directly to us by the Authors, God designed it to be for us. So when you read the Bible it's important to understand the full context and not just the verse.

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I also looked up what someone (John MacArthur) had to say on this verse, he is very knowledgeable when it comes to expository teaching, probably one of the best out there.

He says, "The assumption is that divorced people will remarry. If the divorce was not for sexual immorality, any remarriage is adultery, because God does not acknowledge the divorce." Then He says to see more on divorce see 1 Corinthians 7:15 note, so I am going to include that as well:

1 Corinthians 7:15
Yet if the unbelieving one leaves, let him leave; the brother or the sister is not under bondage in such cases, but God has called us to peace. (NASB)

MacArthurs Notes:

let him leave. A term referring to divorce (cf. vv. 10,11). When an unbelieving spouse cannot tolerate the partner's faith and wants a divorce, it is best to let that happen in order to preserve peace in the family (cf. Ro 12:18). The bond of marriage is broken only by death (Ro 7:2), adultery (Mt 19:9), or an unbeliever's leaving.
not under bondage. When the bond is broken in any of those ways, a Christian is free to marry another believer. Throughout Scripture, whenever legitimate divorce occurs, remarriage is assumed. When divorce is permitted, so is remarriage. By implication, the permission for a widow to remarry (vv. 39,40; Ro 7:3) because the "bond" is broken, extends to this case where there is no more "bondage."

Re: Sex and Religion
 

The point still stands, that if someone marries a second time and does not repent they have committed a major sin. Now if that person's decision to divorce was justified (which it should have been) and if their decision to remarry was also justified (which I hope it was), then they cannot repent - and therefore you effectively equivocate divorce with remarriage (sorry I didn't make that clear from the outset) with the other major sins.

On the male female thing, I misread that - I took it to mean by divorcing his wife the man is responsible for the woman's remarriage, while it actually seems to mean that when you divorce, your marriage becomes somewhat null and void, so any sexual acts committed can be seen as adultery - am I right?

Re: Sex and Religion
 

I'm not sure if you're familiar with Dan Dennet but if you aren't, during one of his talks he mentioned something that is both very common and likely true when it comes to religion, such as Christianity. I'll use the same example he did because it illustrates it very well. He put up a sentence in Turkish and not knowing Turkish he told the audience that the sentence was true. He said he got a collegue of his who is Turkish to write a sentence in Turkish that is truthful but to NOT tell him what it means nor translates to.

The reason I'm mentioning this is because of how you were influenced by Michael. and possibly others, with the idea that someone says something and although you may not understand it, you agree with it anyways. The point is, you don't need to rely on what others tell you about the belief you adhere to in order to make your decisions. I know you want to anyways for reassurance and confusion but this is something you ideally need to figure out yourself. This is not to mean that you shouldn't talk to others about it but rather that you shouldn't be influenced by one person even if you don't quite agree or understand the concepts.

Religion is highly subjective and you have no need to take the same subjective interpretations someone gives you as being "the word" or the way you should interpret it. It's fine having two people give two different interpretations of the same passage but it's not fine if a person instantly adheres to the interpretation one of them gives without doing much consideration themselves.

But just for the hell of it, I'll play game. Is oral sex a sin? Doesn't matter because according to the bible, you're off to hell anyways unless you repent, ask for forgiveness, etc... . Will God hate you? Yes. If you read the bible, especially the Old Testament, he has no problem hating or killing. In fact, he's a pretty angry and sadistic god even to those who believe in him, so I'd have to say, yes he'd probably be pretty pissed off at you but then again he tends to be pretty pissed off with other believers so you're no exception. In fact, it's reasonable enough to say he would hate you already ignoring the oral sex. Alternatively, in the bible it generally says he hates the actions people do and not necessarily the believers, so you can take that approach to it. Either way though, he's hateful to you or your actions or both.

With all that said, DON'T go into fear thinking god will hate you and so forth.

Re: Sex and Religion
 

Divorce is only permitted in God's eyes due to marriage unfaithfulness/adultery. If you divorce because of this you're previous marriage is no longer looked upon as a marriage in the eyes of God and He gives you the freedom to remarry without sinning and committing adultery. However, back in Jewish times they were a very liberal group of people and divorce was basically written off for anything. I am not exaggerating when I say this: If your wife burnt your toast, you could divorce her. All you had to do to divorce was write a certificate yourself with 1 other witness and you were legally divorced. So Jesus was rebuking them simply saying, "UNLESS your spouse is cheating on you, God looks down upon your divorce and you have committed adultery in His eyes if you remarry because you will have sex with another person... because in His eyes you are still married."

If their marriage is justified in the eyes of God then there is no need to repent, but if you divorce because of something so simple as a burnt piece of toast, your marriage is NOT justified therefore if you do remarry, it is possible to repent. You simply don't do it again and beg God for forgiveness and to have mercy on you.

The law of divorce was given through Moses because of the hardness of hearts. God simply says Himself that He hates divorce. You see marriage is supposed to signify the bond between Christ (the husband) and the church (the wife). Christ will never forsake His church therefore He is basically saying, "I hate divorce and I would never do it, but because you are fallen human I will permit divorce for unfaithfulness." God wants us to forgive each other for our sins, not divorce.

But either way, is divorce a sin? It can be if for the reasons outside of a biblical context -- but it can be forgiven through the blood of Christ -- you don't lose your salvation if you divorce.

I hope this makes sense I just woke up so forgive me if it's a bit scattered.

[edit]
It's important to note that repentance doesn't physically save you though, it is Christ. But when we look upon Christ in faith, we repent. Therefore a genuine saving faith includes repentance. Just figured I'd put this in here so that we don't get confused about repentance. It's not about how much you repent or how much faith you have, but upon the object of faith and if you truly believe and trust on Christ -- how could you NOT repent from sin?

Re: Sex and Religion
 

I agree. Some of my friends take this stuff very literally and I'm not really one to do that:)

I'm not really religious, but I think that what you believe in The Bible (or whatever holy book you posses) is up to you. If you wish to take it word for word and literal, that's fine. If, however, you decide not to take it not so literally, that's okay too. There are many different view points about different things when it comes to religion, and you can freely choose your own.

Re: Sex and Religion
 

Re: Sex and Religion
 

Again, if simply looking at someone with lust is the equivalent of idolatry, certainly oral sex is wrong. It also talks about not even a hint of sexual immorality among believers, or sensuality. Despite this, if it wasn't in question of whether it is proper or not, there would be no question on the topic. We do not ask questions for something which there is no conviction about. For example, we don't have debates whether murder is proper or not, we simply state "murder is bad." Why? Because we know it is. But none the less it's not what we "think oral sex is 'sex'" or not, but whether based on the Bible if it is a sin. Just because you believe something, does not make it so. If I went to a courtroom and the judge said, "you're guilty of murder." And I said, "Well I believe with all my heart that I did not commit murder, I simply killed someone, but in my opinion that's not murder." Are you going to be innocent? No. It's not a matter of beliefs but on what the Bible says.

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From a christian background, there is nothing that you can do to make god hate you.

Re: Sex and Religion
 

Say that to most of the people on this forum :rolleyes:

Re: Sex and Religion
 

Where is Nightmare when you need him?

Michael, while you may be trying to help, this is your basic message to this poor girl:

"You can engage in sexual activities, but you should feel horrible about and resent and regret every action."

You DO realize that that is a mindset that will traumatize her, right? It would appear she is unsure of where she stands on the subject, and here you come force feeding negative connotations to her choices.

If she chooses to wait until marriage fine, but if waiting is not the choice she makes, she shouldn't have to completely scar herself for life by coming to hate herself and her sexual desires, which is what you're basically telling her to do.

Sparkles, make the decision that makes you happy and if it really becomes a problem for you, see your pastor or local religious leader or support group.

Re: Sex and Religion
 

as long as you are a good person i don't think God will hate you just for oral sex.

Re: Sex and Religion
 

This is not my logic at all. Does she have free will? Absolutely. No one is going to force her to wait for the Biblical standards of marriage (not even I did, but God saved such a sinner as myself). God granted us free will to live righteously or sinfully. However, this does not negate that there are consequences for your actions. Should she feel horrible under the law? Absolutely. She disregarded God's holiness for sin. Have I done the same? Absolutely I have. Probably more so than her. Did not Paul himself say that he was the chief of all sinners? Paul went around murdering and imprisoning Christians, yet God saved him. David was a man after God's own heart and he was an adulterer and a murderer. Did David feel horrible about his actions? Absolutely. Read Psalms 51. God desires us to be broken hearted over our sin, this is why David was a man over God's own heart. Unless one sees that they are truly helpless they will not come to Christ. Am I telling her all is lost? NOT IN THE LEAST BIT. I am leading her to Christ which there is forgiveness for sins and no condemnation. Should you regret sin? Yes, you've grieved the heart of God. However, Christ was sent so that we are free from sin and the condemnation. How is this scarring? This indeed should bring great rejoicing.

Read Psalms 30, 51, 139. There should be great weeping over sin. This is why Christ died for us. It is so offensive to God that He sent His Son to die for us. Are we hopeless? Without Christ, yes. Is she capable of saving her self? No. She simply has to trust in Christ and the sufficiency of the cross and trust that God's grace is capable of forgiving her sins just as it was capable of saving mine, David's, and Paul's... and any other Christian for that matter. Don't get me wrong. I am not condemning her, but giving her hope. Whether you choose to be angry at this message or not is your choice. Few actually choose to listen to it, Paul was in fact stoned for sharing such a message. I am not condemning her, no, but giving her hope in the sufficiency of Christ's blood who died for her and apart from Him there is no salvation.

Rican, I am not simply trying to help her, but lead her to Christ.

So Izzie, please see that your sorrow is needed, but look to Christ, see His sufficiency. Your sin is deserving of judgment, as was mine. But Christ paid that penalty so you don't have to and any pride in yourself to bring about salvation will not save you. You are hopeless without Christ, but because He died you are free. Cling to the cross as Augustus Toplady did:

Re: Sex and Religion
 

Guess who's back, YourNightmare is back, tell a friend, guess who's back, guess who's back, guess who's back, guess who's back, guess who's back, guess who's back... . New username though, got a bit tired of the nightmare one as this one has humour to it.

No, she does not have free will. Did she choose to be a female? Did she choose who her parents were going to be when she was born? She has constrained or restricted free will but not true free will.

Law? Since when were biblical verses law? I agree that according to the bible she should feel horrible but this assumes she believes the bible literally, including the part being referenced.

It's scarring for the simple reason that she entered this thread very unsure and insecure to a point where she adhered to whatever the other responses said. When one is this fragile and delicate, coming in and saying "Bahaha, you'll burn forever, god hates what you've done, you should feel ashamed for yourself, read this passage and this one and this one, all these show how you're horrible and should feel like a pile of shit", that's not something that will help her. She was obviously unsure about the passages regarding sex, specifically oral sex and when you bring your views into play in such a way, you have her adhere to them. Scarring may be too strong of a word but if you have a different word, feel free to share it.

I assume by "we" you mean Christians.

Excellent, so you're saying she cant do a single thing herself unless someone or something (i.e. Christ) comes in and lays out a trail of breadcrumbs. I don't really care what religion one adheres to, everyone is capable of saving themselves in certain situations, humans are not completely dependent on someone or something else.

It's a warped view of hope though.

Why not just help her out instead of leading her to Christ? I assume you found Christ on your own and so have many other beleivers, so I see no reason why she is incapable of doing the same thing herself.

Nice but false, god is a pretty hateful guy and since humans are technically all sinners, given that god hates sin and sinners, god hates everyone (although in some twisted way he loves everyone also).

Re: Sex and Religion
 

You know you can just change the username?

Re: Sex and Religion
 

There was an issue I had with changing it so I made a new account, chatted to Rob and Rob got the nightmare one back, so now I'm left with 2 accounts. I figured I'd just stick to this one as it has a username I like more now.

Re: Sex and Religion
 

The Jewish Old Testament laws. Christ came to set us free from the bondage of them and are referred to as laws several times through out the epistles. Though they were the oracles given to the Jews, all men are responsible for upholding the law and if you fail at any point you are a sinner and need forgiveness. By free will she has the ability to choose between right and wrong. In all respect sir, she came asking a question about the Bible, not mere mans interpretation of life and that is what I have given, if I do not warn her of what the Bible says that would make me a liar, but perhaps that is what I ought to do in your opinion. So could I simply tell her, "all is well with your soul," when in reality nothing could be further from the truth and the only fixation is in fact Christ? Would it not be horrible for me to not warn of impeding judgment for sins that will be suffered for eternity if not bandaged by faith in Christ? This would be a tragedy. When I say "we" I mean all people. Not just Christians. All people are hopeless apart from Christ and incapable of Heaven. Christ said Himself, "I am the way the truth and the life, no one comes to the Father but through me." I did not find Christ, He found me by sending a servant to me. I did not "accept" Christ, He accepted me through His death and resurrection and shutting me up through His school master, the law, and humbled me to the point where He made me realize through His Spirit that I deserve eternal punishment, but then seeing that Christ had fulfilled my punishment and apart from Him, I am doomed.

Re: Sex and Religion
 

thanks everyone. most of these are really helpful :)

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No, that is not my opinion. My opinion is that if she adheres to the same line of thinking and interpretations as you do about the Bible, then sure, tell her of what the bible says, I have no problem with that. I have a problem though when you say you want to lead her to Christ, as that is something one should find by themselves without the influence of others. I even said in previous posts that god would hate her for what she did so in that sense, I'm supporting part of what you're saying.

This is the part where I have a problem with what you're saying, as you're pushing your belief onto others, saying that no matter what one believes, you're doomed unless you follow my way. That is garbage. I have my own beliefs and I sure as hell don't need Christ to help me out. You can tell other Christians they need Christ and that's fine but don't go about and ignore what other people believe simply to push your belief onto them. People believe different things and no, not all people who don't believe in Christ are doomed. The point of this is as follows: your belief, like my belief is subjective, don't make it factual because it isn't factual.

Wonderful argument, use a passage from a book of Christianity to support Christianity [/sarcasm].

If that's your belief, that's fine with me. If you think you're doomed without Christ, fine with me. However, when you tell a "non-believer" that they're doomed and they should accept your way, then you're belittling them and preaching to them. I'll speak for myself when I say that when someone tells me my belief is wrong when they have NO evidence and preach to me, I'm not a fan of that. There's a difference between expressing one's beliefs and preaching one's beliefs while going "lalala, I don't care what you believe because my book says I'm right so you're wrong regardless of what your book says". Sound fair and just? Not at all.

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THANK YOU! I'm so glad someone actually thought to say this. There's a time and place for religious debate, but this isn't it.

Sparkles, what it really comes down to is this. No one knows one way or another about what you're asking. Some have said yes, obviously, others will say no. If you choose to follow a particular set of beliefs, ask someone who's well versed in those beliefs. If you choose to believe the bible, then read it. Personally though, I'd encourage you to decide what you believe yourself. Do you think god would hate you for having sex? Do you think god has any problem with sex in the first place? No one knows, so nothing makes a priest's or a philosopher's opinion any more correct or valid than your own.

Whatever you choose, just make sure that your beliefs make you happy. Always feeling miserable and inadequate is no way to live. Hope you're having a good day! :)

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I'm not debating, I am simply offering Biblical answers considering she is a believes the Bible.

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No, you are offering your interpretation of it. People will invariably come to different conclusions about the same thing.

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No, you're telling her what you believe and are assuming she believes exactly the same interpretation as you do. If she doesn't believe the same interpretation, you know that based on her suggestibility, she'll likely adhere to at least some of your interpretation without considering her own view without the input of other interpretations. People's interpretations vary and are subjective, they're not objective nor factual.

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It doesn't matter what I believe. It matters what it says.

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Considering that a book based on faith only has as much merit as your beliefs give it, I'd say it matters a great deal what yourself and she believe.

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But here's the crux of the entire problem: although it may say something, the way you and her interpret it may be different. The entire belief revolves essentially around opinion (as well as faith) and opinion is subjective, so although you're quoting biblical verses, in your responses you're also including your interpretations as being the way the verses should be interpreted. You say something and then you back it up with a passage as though it's more or less factual.

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Not quite. You believe that it doesn't matter what you believe. And you believe it matters what the bible says. But that's only true if the bible - and your personal interpretation of it - are correct. And since you don't take the entire bible literally - you use your personal judgement to determine how various passages should be interpreted, and which should be ignored - what makes your opinion any more valid than Sparkles' or anyone else's? She could take your word for it, and she could take mine, but she should decide for herself.

Re: Sex and Religion
 

I read the Bible literally as it was intended to be read. Regardless, it matters what the Bible says, not what my interpretation of it is. If you read where an Author of a science book wrote, "The Earth has gravity." Then after reading this you came to me and said, "Did you know the Earth has gravity?" If I responded, "That's only your interpretation of the Authors words, I believe the author meant the Earth has no gravity whatsoever." Therefore, by our own interpretations we come to conflict. It does not matter what your interpretation is, it matters what the original Author intended by it's context and many theologians and historians have gathered complex materials and studied these subject to find out what these passages mean. Therefore, you take the context, who it was written to, the gap in history, and find out what the AUTHOR INTENDED and NOT what your individual interpretation of something is. Another example, if my friend was working at a store and he messed up my order (or something) and I called him and idiot, perhaps if you were an onlooker you would assume I was being rude to him. However, my friend interprets the message differently, because he knows that I am simply messing around. Why is there a different in interpretation? Because he knows what the sender of the message intended. That's what important, not your own individual interpretation. If you study hermeneutics you learn to read the Bible properly, and not just a simple, "I think it means this this and this." That's not how you read the Bible. So what makes my opinion more valid? Well, technically, using your logic... it doesn't. But considering I take the Bible literally and have read more on what the authors intended, I'd say it makes a substantial difference.

Re: Sex and Religion
 

This thread makes me feel ill.
how can you commit adultery when you are not married? Or maybe my definition of adultery is way off.

Look its tough when religious belief collides with what you feel is right/what you want to do. Many catholics would say oral sex is wrong, but then I know PLENTY of catholic couples with only one or two children so either they're using condoms/other birth control, or they're just not having sex. Go figure.
Personally I don't believe in God. But I think anyone who tells you what to do is out of order because really its your decision- if you believe in a loving and forgiving God then do what you feel is right by that. That may be abstinence it may not be but at least you'll know you made your own decision.
Good Luck x

Re: Sex and Religion
 

How do you know it was intended to be read literally throughout? When numerous parts conflict with each other, then there comes a question as to whether each part was meant to be interpreted the same way. One assumes they are meant to be interpreted the same way but since the bible is so subjective, it does not necessarily have to be interpreted literally.

The difference is though that the author writing the thing about gravity has support for what they say, and so it's not completely faith-based as it is with the bible.

How do you know what the original author intended it to be interpreted as? Theologians and historian scholars interpret it their ways but does that mean their way is what the author's way was? Not necessarily.

The problem is that you can only determine what the passages mean to you. You cannot determine what the author's thoughts were without using your own interpretation. Thus, it is completely subjective. The same applies in sciences with regards to psychology. You can only objectively observe or measure behavior, you cannot objectively measure thoughts.

He ASSUMES he knows what the sender intended based on his subjective interpretations. The best way he can truly know is to ask you (the sender) what you meant. Any other way is merely an attempt but will not allow him to know what you meant.

Huh? If I'm studying the bible, then my interpretation is not important? To me, it's pretty important because that's what my entire belief based on the bible will be centered around.

You learn to read what the bible says but there's no "true interpretation" because you cannot ask the authors what they meant. Let's use your example: suppose I say you're a fool for dropping an egg on the floor. Using what you know of me through this thread, you won't know much. If we expand it to my previous account of YourNightmare, you may know a bit more but still not much. The point is, your interpretation may not be the same as what I intended it to be. Suppose I wrote down on paper "Michael., you're a fool" and suppose 1 person analyzed it. Now suppose 10 people analyzed it and if all 10 people in addition to the 1 person initially come to the same interpretation, does that mean their collective conclusion will state my intention when I wrote "Michael., you're a fool"? Not necessarily. The point of this is you cannot know what someone truly means through writing without consulting them and asking what they meant.

Did the authors write down and say explicity what they meant? Did they write "I/we meant..." or in similar terms? If they did no such thing, then all you have is your interpretation. You can base your interpretation or compare it to that of scholars but it's meaningless because you don't know if their interpreation is the correct one to begin with. You can take the bible literally but that doesn't mean you're correct no matter how much you compare it to the interpretation of others.

You may have more biblical, theological or historical knowledge and understanding regarding the bible and so you can have more in-depth intepretations, I have no disagreement with that. However, I disagree when you make the jump to say that since you have more knowledge and understanding, that your interpretation is correct because you do not know what the authors intended because they never told you or you never asked them and got an answer. Whether your interpretation has more weight than, say mine is irrelevant when it comes to deciding who is correct in their interpretation since you can have more details but you are just as likely to be wrong as I am.

Re: Sex and Religion
 

I'm not here to get into a religion debate, but here's my two-cents:

First of all, God will never hate you. God created human-kind out of love and it will always stay that way. He loves everyone no matter what.

Second, I think ultimately, it is your choice and your own comfort that matter. If it feels right to you and isn't hurting anyone, do it. Simple as that. As far as what people think, if they can't support the love-filled relationship you have, forget them.

-Grasshopper