Can you look at religion scientifically, and still believe God exists?

[Dasha]

What viable proof do we have that God really exists? Is there any?

The feelings you get from worship. Reading the bible. When praying. Sharing your faith. Coming to the Lord. Are they from God?
Those can just be counted as chemical reactions from the brain and not actual feelings from God. We naturally feel good when someone believes in us, why not the same feeling when we believe in someone?

How about miracles? A friend or loved one mysteriously healed from a sickness. Someone you know got hit by a bus and survived. There is more food in the pantry than yesterday. You passed a test you didn't study for. Are they really just miracles?
Humans are exceptional, we don't even know everything about ourselves. Our body is constantly healing itself and has the means to come back from almost every physical attack. Its only when we don't eat healthy does the body not have what it needs to heal and protect itself. And when we don't have what we need, our brains wont remember every thing. Like the fact that you were half asleep when you saw the pantry and your brain didn't pick it all up, or that you actually talked about the test last week.
In the bible days it seems people had actual miracles to believe in. I mean, things happening in front of their own eyes that could not be explained. Food left on the porch this morning means someone could have dropped if off. Food left back then was done right in front of their eyes. They literally never saw the bottom of bags, saw someone immediately recover from sickness, saw water turned to wine! Where are those miracles today? Did the bible lie?

You can take every part of religions and pick them apart piece by piece and find many many flaws, and/or obvious lies. You can shout up to the heavens with curses and every vile thing your mouth can speak and not get struck down. You can take every feeling of faith or whatever and give it some cause. Give some sort of reason why it occurred.

Is there any real physical proof that God really exists? That he is not some figment of our imaginations?
Or do all we have is faith? What if we put that faith in the wrong God? Are we still condemned to hell? How can we know which God is real?

[BigBL87]

Originally Posted by Dasha

What viable proof do we have that God really exists? Is there any?

Simply put, there is no proof. Honestly, for many things in life, you will end up being very disappointed if you want undeniable proof. And, as a Christian, I really don't have a problem with that. As soon as the Christian faith is proved empirically true, it would really cease to be faith in my mind.

As far as miracles, I do believe that they occur nowadays. Though, I don't think that miracles have to occur outside of the laws of science (Although I think they can and do). The plagues brought down on Egypt in Exodus, for example, are an instance where I think a miracle was actually ordinary things with extraordinary timing and intensity.

If you are looking for irrefutable proof, I don't think that you will get much from the Christian faith. I consider myself somewhat of an apologist (i.e. someone who will defend the faith), and I find my faith to be completely rational. Proven, no, but rational yes.

[PhoenixAlive]

Originally Posted by Dasha

What viable proof do we have that God really exists? Is there any?

No, there is no absolute proof that God exists. However if there was there would be no faith, and that would kind of defeat the purpose wouldn't it?

Originally Posted by Dasha

The feelings you get from worship. Reading the bible. When praying. Sharing your faith. Coming to the Lord. Are they from God?
Those can just be counted as chemical reactions from the brain and not actual feelings from God. We naturally feel good when someone believes in us, why not the same feeling when we believe in someone?

I don't see how this negates the possibility of God's existence. If God created the universe, he also created the chemical reactions which occur in order to give us these feelings of awe and connection to Him.

Originally Posted by Dasha

How about miracles? A friend or loved one mysteriously healed from a sickness. Someone you know got hit by a bus and survived. There is more food in the pantry than yesterday. You passed a test you didn't study for. Are they really just miracles?
Humans are exceptional, we don't even know everything about ourselves. Our body is constantly healing itself and has the means to come back from almost every physical attack. Its only when we don't eat healthy does the body not have what it needs to heal and protect itself. And when we don't have what we need, our brains wont remember every thing. Like the fact that you were half asleep when you saw the pantry and your brain didn't pick it all up, or that you actually talked about the test last week.
In the bible days it seems people had actual miracles to believe in. I mean, things happening in front of their own eyes that could not be explained. Food left on the porch this morning means someone could have dropped if off. Food left back then was done right in front of their eyes. They literally never saw the bottom of bags, saw someone immediately recover from sickness, saw water turned to wine! Where are those miracles today? Did the bible lie?

Miracles do happen everyday. Life is a miracle. Just because something can be scientifically explained doesn't mean it can't be a gift from God.

There are still big miracles happening in the world, however they don't get as much recognition, and they don't happen very often. There were very few big theatrical miracles like the ones you were describing back in biblical times too. The ones that did occur before and after Jesus' 30 some years of life were often hundreds of years apart. However these miracles are so well known because the Bible is a huge part of our culture.

Originally Posted by Dasha

You can take every part of religions and pick them apart piece by piece and find many many flaws, and/or obvious lies. You can shout up to the heavens with curses and every vile thing your mouth can speak and not get struck down. You can take every feeling of faith or whatever and give it some cause. Give some sort of reason why it occurred.

Is there any real physical proof that God really exists? That he is not some figment of our imaginations?

No, and that's why it is considered faith.

Originally Posted by Dasha

Or do all we have is faith? What if we put that faith in the wrong God? Are we still condemned to hell? How can we know which God is real?

I don't think anyone would be condemned to Hell for not believing in a certain human perception of what and who God is. God is completely out of our realm of understanding, so why should He care which flawed image of Him we follow?

[Algernon]

I don't have proof. And I don't need to prove my belief to anyone. I find it rude when people try to ask me impossible questions. People should accept everyone's beliefs, regardless if they believe or find proof in them. I don't walk around converting people all day because I sometimes find it disrespectful.

[Annoni]

Originally Posted by Dasha

What viable proof do we have that God really exists? Is there any?

Mmhmm. In my opinion, life. Everything around you. Everything beyond you. It's all proof, how else did it get here? But, if you don't believe that, then there's not much solid proof, God wants faith.

Originally Posted by Dasha

The feelings you get from worship. Reading the bible. When praying. Sharing your faith. Coming to the Lord. Are they from God?
Those can just be counted as chemical reactions from the brain and not actual feelings from God. We naturally feel good when someone believes in us, why not the same feeling when we believe in someone?

It's not the same. God can -use- those chemicals in the brain, totally. You could hook someone up and observe the changes that happen with those feelings normally, but it's the cause of the feeling that is beyond us. Think about it, we've never been able to scientifically test for causes.

Originally Posted by Dasha

How about miracles? A friend or loved one mysteriously healed from a sickness. Someone you know got hit by a bus and survived. There is more food in the pantry than yesterday. You passed a test you didn't study for. Are they really just miracles?
Humans are exceptional, we don't even know everything about ourselves. Our body is constantly healing itself and has the means to come back from almost every physical attack. Its only when we don't eat healthy does the body not have what it needs to heal and protect itself. And when we don't have what we need, our brains wont remember every thing. Like the fact that you were half asleep when you saw the pantry and your brain didn't pick it all up, or that you actually talked about the test last week.
In the bible days it seems people had actual miracles to believe in. I mean, things happening in front of their own eyes that could not be explained. Food left on the porch this morning means someone could have dropped if off. Food left back then was done right in front of their eyes. They literally never saw the bottom of bags, saw someone immediately recover from sickness, saw water turned to wine! Where are those miracles today? Did the bible lie?

Miracles, big subject. You're touching fairly minor stuff, which could be labeled as "coincidence", even though the bible is clear there is no such thing. But regardless, you seem to believe these things could just happen, and there's none of the more extreme miracles.
If you don't know what a Revival is, look it up. The definition seems wimpy compared to what it actually is. There have been a couple recent ones in the States, one my girlfriend went to. If you ever went to one, you would probably shut your mouth fairly quickly about there being no extreme miracles
My girlfriend's sister's husband, (the sister with the husband have started a ministry, by the way) told me about how a woman came to him with a broken arm. He had no experience in healing anyone at all, but he's pretty darn strong in faith, so He trusted God on what to do. That woman had her broken arm healed, by faith.
Time for scripture reference, yes?
Matthew 21:21-22 (NIV):: Jesus replied, "I tell you the truth, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and it will be done. If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer."

That kind of faith is really hard to come by in this world. Do not doubt? We're fairly doubting creatures, but the ones who have this kind of faith are the ones that can perform miracles, by faith. All is not lost for miracles, the media tends to keep it hushed for some reason. These things you need to hear by people that have gone through personal experience.

Also, life is a miracle! There are billions of miracles happening every single femtosecond!. (That would be one billionth of a millionth of a second, by the way. Our God is that awesome to maintain life like that!)

Originally Posted by Dasha

You can take every part of religions and pick them apart piece by piece and find many many flaws, and/or obvious lies. You can shout up to the heavens with curses and every vile thing your mouth can speak and not get struck down. You can take every feeling of faith or whatever and give it some cause. Give some sort of reason why it occurred.

Is there any real physical proof that God really exists? That he is not some figment of our imaginations?
Or do all we have is faith? What if we put that faith in the wrong God? Are we still condemned to hell? How can we know which God is real?

The problem with picking a religion apart is that you are looking for flaws, and therefore do not always get a full view or get things in context. If people carefully picked and debated, there would be a whole lot less "lies" about the bible.

If you're shouting up curses to God, consider it grace by His love that he does not hold anger or revenge against you. He has hope for you and does not wish to destroy you; He loves you.

And... technically, there is a whole ton of proof that God exists. Everything around is physical proof, the bible seems pretty physical to me. But I kow that isn't as satisfactory of an answer as you are looking for, because you are not searching for faith, you want proof.

There simply is not kind of proof that you ask for. What kind of relationship with God would that be? You would have to love Him, and no one would have doubt to trust Him. That seems a little robotic and emotionless to me. God wants a real relationship, something you have faith in, something you actually have to choose.

I'm sure you won't get much different answers from devout Christians. I mean the ones that actually believe at least most of the entire bible. Those "radical" ones. A few of them, like me, could go on from the beginning of the bible, explain the age, the earth, the different layers of the earth, fossils, dinosaurs, now the Great Canyon was probably formed (Has to do with the Flood, not the Colorado River. When you actually look at it, the river idea looks silly and impossible). But that's all proof that I would think you would be skeptical on, and I will not waste anyone's time.


To answer the question in the thread title: Yes. You can. Also, don't think that the big bang is science. It's not. Huge misconception.

[Dasha]

Originally Posted by PhoenixAlive

I don't think anyone would be condemned to Hell for not believing in a certain human perception of what and who God is. God is completely out of our realm of understanding, so why should He care which flawed image of Him we follow?

That is the most awesome answer to that question I have ever seen. I applaud you on your intelligence and understanding in this matter.

Originally Posted by xHolyValorx

I don't have proof. And I don't need to prove my belief to anyone. I find it rude when people try to ask me impossible questions. People should accept everyone's beliefs, regardless if they believe or find proof in them. I don't walk around converting people all day because I sometimes find it disrespectful.

Right. So I guess your answer is a No then?
I did not ask you to convert me. I did not try and ask an impossible question. I accept others beliefs, but I still would like to understand them.

[Algernon]

Originally Posted by Dasha

That is the most awesome answer to that question I have ever seen. I applaud you on your intelligence and understanding in this matter.



Right. So I guess your answer is a No then?
I did not ask you to convert me. I did not try and ask an impossible question. I accept others beliefs, but I still would like to understand them.

I believe science and faith go hand-in-hand. Yes, 110% yes.

[Oiseau the Little Bird!]

Originally Posted by Dasha

The feelings you get from worship. Reading the bible. When praying. Sharing your faith. Coming to the Lord. Are they from God?
Those can just be counted as chemical reactions from the brain and not actual feelings from God. We naturally feel good when someone believes in us, why not the same feeling when we believe in someone?

This very question sent me into a depressing spiral for about a year...right around when I was 16 or so. I was watching a documentary on something or other, and they evaluated a bunch of brainwaves and chemicals in the brain when the person was reading the bible or praying. This lead me to believe that all of those feelings were just something that the body produced to make us feel good on a much higher level. It absolutely shattered my beliefs.

It wasn't until I came onto the forums to discuss it because it was really sending me up the wall that someone said (and I wish I remembered who said it, because I owe them so much <3) that it was the body's response to the presence of God.

I mean, it can be argued. But why do those certain chemicals and sensations only occur when you're worshiping or praying and not any other time?

[Dr.Eggman789]

Originally Posted by Annoni

If you don't know what a Revival is, look it up. The definition seems wimpy compared to what it actually is. There have been a couple recent ones in the States, one my girlfriend went to. If you ever went to one, you would probably shut your mouth fairly quickly about there being no extreme miracles
My girlfriend's sister's husband, (the sister with the husband have started a ministry, by the way) told me about how a woman came to him with a broken arm. He had no experience in healing anyone at all, but he's pretty darn strong in faith, so He trusted God on what to do. That woman had her broken arm healed, by faith.
Time for scripture reference, yes?
Matthew 21:21-22 (NIV):: Jesus replied, "I tell you the truth, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and it will be done. If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer."

That kind of faith is really hard to come by in this world. Do not doubt? We're fairly doubting creatures, but the ones who have this kind of faith are the ones that can perform miracles, by faith. All is not lost for miracles, the media tends to keep it hushed for some reason. These things you need to hear by people that have gone through personal experience.

Ever wonder whether the media doesn't cover it because the supposed "healed people" are fraudulent? I'm not saying they are, but it's a very real possibility. Todd Bentley is an obvious fake.

Originally Posted by xHolyValorx

I believe science and faith go hand-in-hand. Yes, 110% yes.

How do you reconcile this belief with the Biblical age of Earth (which, depending on the researcher, ranges from six to six and a half thousand years) with the overwhelming evidence of the true age of the Earth being roughly four and a half thousand years?

Originally Posted by Oiseau the Little Bird!

I mean, it can be argued. But why do those certain chemicals and sensations only occur when you're worshiping or praying and not any other time?

It seems likely that, after a long trial of different situations, the same chemicals and brainwaves could be reproduced from a completely non-religious activity.

[Dasha]

Originally Posted by PhoenixAlive

Miracles do happen everyday. Life is a miracle. Just because something can be scientifically explained doesn't mean it can't be a gift from God.

There are still big miracles happening in the world, however they don't get as much recognition, and they don't happen very often. There were very few big theatrical miracles like the ones you were describing back in biblical times too. The ones that did occur before and after Jesus' 30 some years of life were often hundreds of years apart. However these miracles are so well known because the Bible is a huge part of our culture.

I mean an actual miracle. Something unexplainable by natural science. Something that is undeniably caused by a supernatural force.

Originally Posted by Annoni

The problem with picking a religion apart is that you are looking for flaws, and therefore do not always get a full view or get things in context. If people carefully picked and debated, there would be a whole lot less "lies" about the bible.

That's what science is. Nit picking every single piece(though not out of context) and making sure it can all be explained by natural science.

[Oiseau the Little Bird!]

Explain statues crying blood or people's cancer suddenly disappearing into full remission. -shrug- Science that up for me.

[Jack]

Have any weeping statues ever actually been found that haven't been disproved as a hoax or perfectly explainable?

And cancer can just go into remission, it would be more compelling to put a religious reason to it if the cancer only went into remission in religious people instead. Just because science doesn't know why yet doesn't mean it can't be explained in the future.

[TakeTheLeap]

There's one big thing you're forgetting here.
There's no viable proof. But that's faith. That's what religion gives people, is faith. Faith in themselves, faith in other people, faith in something bigger than themselves. Relgion gives people strength. People feel more empowered to fight when something goes wrong because they have God on their side. When something goes right, they can feel empowered because it might be something they accomplished, but they can also thank God.
Faith can give people a lot that science simply can't. Science often leads to more questions. Like religion, it isn't finite. It doesn't give answers to everything, but simply raises more question. Religion can fill in that gap so that, instead of asking more and more questions, you can be at peace knowing that something is in God's hands. Sometimes, that's all the more proof you need.

[Dr.Eggman789]

Originally Posted by ~Emily~

Religion can fill in that gap so that, instead of asking more and more questions, you can be at peace knowing that something is in God's hands. Sometimes, that's all the more proof you need.

So you'd rather be a sheep? Personally, asking questions is what propels the human race forward, technologically, physically and socially. It drives humans, the need to know and the desire for more.

[TakeTheLeap]

Originally Posted by Dr.Eggman789

So you'd rather be a sheep? Personally, asking questions is what propels the human race forward, technologically, physically and socially. It drives humans, the need to know and the desire for more.

I didn't say that. But, asking questions find answers which ask more questions, which find answers which ask more questions.
We will NEVER know everything. We will NEVER have every question we can ask entered. It's not going to happen. Humans are far too inquisitive, and the question of, "Why?" or, "How?" will always be there.
That's where faith comes in. Why not have just a little bit of mystery in our lives still? Why not turn something into the hands of a higher power?

[Double X]

I have found nothing to support that there is connection to the physical world and a supposed 'spiritual world'.

[InSovietRussiaORGASMGotU]

Originally Posted by Dasha

What viable proof do we have that God really exists? Is there any?

Religious beliefs require faith, hence, no elaborate proofs are needed that would be needed for science. There is some and that some is what each of the religious followers would have.

Originally Posted by Dasha

The feelings you get from worship. Reading the bible. When praying. Sharing your faith. Coming to the Lord. Are they from God?
Those can just be counted as chemical reactions from the brain and not actual feelings from God. We naturally feel good when someone believes in us, why not the same feeling when we believe in someone?

This is true, it may not be from god one bit, however, if you are a believer in god then you're likely to assume it is from god and not from something else. Usually this is seen more in a large group of praying or singing biblical songs, everyone gets all excited, believes it's god because that's part of their religious paradigm, etc... . It's a great example of the placebo effect.

For your second question, when someone believes in us, then we carry our weight plus their weight, it's a sign of immense trust that makes us feel good. We don't get that sensation as much when we believe in someone else (i.e. a human) because it's no self-fulfilling for us. It's self-fulfilling for the person we're believing in.

Originally Posted by Dasha

How about miracles? A friend or loved one mysteriously healed from a sickness. Someone you know got hit by a bus and survived. There is more food in the pantry than yesterday. You passed a test you didn't study for. Are they really just miracles?
Humans are exceptional, we don't even know everything about ourselves. Our body is constantly healing itself and has the means to come back from almost every physical attack. Its only when we don't eat healthy does the body not have what it needs to heal and protect itself. And when we don't have what we need, our brains wont remember every thing. Like the fact that you were half asleep when you saw the pantry and your brain didn't pick it all up, or that you actually talked about the test last week.
In the bible days it seems people had actual miracles to believe in. I mean, things happening in front of their own eyes that could not be explained. Food left on the porch this morning means someone could have dropped if off. Food left back then was done right in front of their eyes. They literally never saw the bottom of bags, saw someone immediately recover from sickness, saw water turned to wine! Where are those miracles today? Did the bible lie?

Some of the issues with healing from a sickness can be explained by investigating the person more. Did they have another disease that combatted the first? Did they take some natural herbs that did something? Did they take some medications or got exposed to a certain environmental condition? Did they have some genetic disorder (i.e. doesn't have to be one that is very noticable on the outside).

For the water to wine stuff, a possible way for that is to drink normal water but have the scent of wine at the same time. Do so and you're likely to taste wine. But for water to chemically change into wine magically, that I don't believe.

The bible may have lied but then again, consider the fact that our technology and amount of scientific knowledge is far more than what is was back then. Perhaps back then they found the way to make water taste like wine and of course without investigating it more, one could conclude the water transformed to wine. Did it really? No. Does it seem like it did? Perhaps.

Originally Posted by Dasha

Is there any real physical proof that God really exists? That he is not some figment of our imaginations?
Or do all we have is faith? What if we put that faith in the wrong God? Are we still condemned to hell? How can we know which God is real?

The proof for God's existence is within one's faith. I don't consider the bible to be proof of his existence because he did not write it, humans did. I view it as being all in our heads.

For your other questions, this brings up the idea of Pascal's Wager.

Originally Posted by Oiseau the Little Bird!

Explain statues crying blood or people's cancer suddenly disappearing into full remission. -shrug- Science that up for me.

The burden of proof is on you to show that the statues actually did cry blood, not some random person's sworn testimony but physical proof that it did. Until then, no such thing occurred.

For the cancer part, you can have other diseases to somewhat counter cancer. Granted, both diseases harm you regardless but one may work against the other. But another reason, cancer can go into remission by itself. It's not a random miracle or anything like that but it's down to the biological aspects. Cancer is essentially when the cell processes get mutated and growth goes beyond normal. If a person happens to have altered proteins and genes that the cancer has trouble mutating, then the cancer can eventually go into remission.

However, cancer is still being heavily researched, so many of the answers we still don't know. If you want a more immediate answer that works to please you, then slap it on with religion. If you want the biological reasons, which may not please you and will take more time, then go with science.

[Double X]

Originally Posted by xHolyValorx

I don't have proof. And I don't need to prove my belief to anyone. I find it rude when people try to ask me impossible questions. People should accept everyone's beliefs, regardless if they believe or find proof in them. I don't walk around converting people all day because I sometimes find it disrespectful.

Respecting someones beliefs in a traditional sense is a good idea, but there is a huge difference between tolerance and respect. Intolerance of beliefs is like the Turks killing the Kurds. Respect on the other hand, is allowing the good folks Scientology preach their nonsense. Today, respect for other peoples beliefs is basically PC garbage so we can avoid arguing over what we perceive to be right in exchange for peace of mind.

I don't want anyone to respect what I believe in, I want it to be broken down and proven wrong because it would give me a more enlightened view on the subject. When we 'respect each others beliefs' it really robs us of a chance to examine our own reasoning and helps us learn more.

sorry if that seems like garbled nonsense

[Kryptonite]

Religion isn't meant to be looked at scientifically, ever...

[Dream]

1. You cannot look at religion scientifically, because science demands falsifiability, and religion does not provide that. Therefore, you can never look at religion scientifically.

2. Yes, you can look at religion through science and still think God exists because science can neither prove nor disprove the existence of God. Therefore, it is up to you to decide whether or not you believe in God, and science will remain neutral either way.

[BigBL87]

Originally Posted by Dream

1. You cannot look at religion scientifically, because science demands falsifiability, and religion does not provide that. Therefore, you can never look at religion scientifically.

To be fair, psychology really can't provide falsifiability for the most part, which is why it is considered a soft science, but a science none the less.

[John 6:29]

Can you look at science religiously and still believe in evolution?

Either way you take this argument, no matter what you believe is based on faith.

There are evidences of both science and religion are true. Whichever one you believe you are putting faith in.

You can say we see evolution today, no we aren't. Have you ever seen a monkey turn into a human, and who's to say humans are the end product? Why aren't human's evolving? I understand it's a "slow process". But I've never seen a animal live a life span of a million years to evolve. Have you? Do you know anyone who's been around since the beginning of the earth and actually witnessed all of this evolving happen? No. You haven't. You believe what a book and a teacher tell you based off other peoples studies, who neither have witnessed these events. Take the giraffe, if the giraffe was made by evolution, what is stopping the giraffes head from exploding when he lowers his neck? Are you telling me this is mere coincidence? Through evolution he just accidentally grew a neck, and automatically had a blood flow that prevented this? The only real plausible explanation I can think of is God. I believe in the God of the Bible, and whether you believe in something else, well that's up to you and God will hold you responsible; but that is a different discussion.

There are evidences of God that science cannot explain; that the Bible explain. There are things that science explains that the Bible does not explain.

I am not saying that taking the Bible scientifically that you can't disprove it. But I am also not saying that you can take science biblically and disprove it.

In the end the Bible is the word's of God; or inspired which means in greek "breathed". Science is an invention of man, though good to study God's creation, science has been changed and altered its core many times. The Holy Bible has never been changed or altered it's core meaning. Yes there are different versions of the Bible, but the CORE MEANING of all the verses stay the same.

I'm not here to argue your point because in life, everything you believe comes down to faith. Just like in science you have faith in what your books and teacher tells you, Christians have faith in what the Bible tells us and our teacher tells us. The difference is one is from man, the other is written by man from God.

Let me ask you: Say the Bible is wrong. So atheists, they're right. In the end we just die. There is nothing after death. Now reverse this... what if the Bible is right? Do you want to go to hell? I'm not trying to scare you, I just think it's ridiculous people try to argue with the Bible, for truthfully no good cause. It's like me arguing with evolution. Giving you fact after fact after fact, biblically, that evolution isn't real. Well, there's no credible source for me to prove this too you because you don't believe in God, you have faith in man made theories instead. OR if you try to put evolution into my mind, and quote scientist after scientist after scientist says this about evolution, well to me, a man isn't as credible of a source as God, so therefore you have no credible sources. It's a never ended argument that will be proven when we die, it's just the fact that I know what happens after I die. And you do too, you just want to disprove it.

[Xujhan]

Originally Posted by onion

Can you look at science religiously and still believe in evolution?

Either way you take this argument, no matter what you believe is based on faith.

There are evidences of both science and religion are true. Whichever one you believe you are putting faith in.

Actually, to be more accurate; there is evidence to indicate that science is generally correct, and there is a lack of evidence to indicate that religion is incorrect. There's an important distinction between the two. As it is generally impossible to prove or find evidence that anything doesn't exist, the onus is on the side of proof and/or evidence.

Originally Posted by onion

You can say we see evolution today, no we aren't. Have you ever seen a monkey turn into a human, and who's to say humans are the end product? Why aren't human's evolving? I understand it's a "slow process". But I've never seen a animal live a life span of a million years to evolve. Have you? Do you know anyone who's been around since the beginning of the earth and actually witnessed all of this evolving happen? No. You haven't. You believe what a book and a teacher tell you based off other peoples studies, who neither have witnessed these events. Take the giraffe, if the giraffe was made by evolution, what is stopping the giraffes head from exploding when he lowers his neck? Are you telling me this is mere coincidence? Through evolution he just accidentally grew a neck, and automatically had a blood flow that prevented this? The only real plausible explanation I can think of is God. I believe in the God of the Bible, and whether you believe in something else, well that's up to you and God will hold you responsible; but that is a different discussion.

Have either of us personally witnessed that the world is a sphere? Or that it takes light approximately eight minutes to travel from the sun to the earth? Or that water is fundamentally composed of two hydrogen and one oxygen molecules? Or that there used to be a roman empire? Yes, I believe what a teacher and a textbook tell me, but if I don't I'm more than free to go and look up the research myself. If I'm not satisfied with that, I can repeat the experiments or view the evidence first hand until I'm satisfied. Sadly, a human lifetime isn't enough to personally question every scientific fact. But just because you or I haven't personally seen the evidence doesn't mean it's not there if we want it.

As for the giraffe, you picked an easy example. Its long neck allows it to reach vegetation that most other animals can't, which reduces competition for food. Over the course of evolution, the giraffes with longer necks and stronger circulatory systems were more likely to survive to reproduce, so those traits became exaggerated and cemented as defining traits of the animal. There; a perfectly plausible explanation. And if you're not satisfied with it, you're perfectly able to read the research or go digging for fossils in the Savannah.

Originally Posted by onion

There are evidences of God that science cannot explain; that the Bible explain. There are things that science explains that the Bible does not explain.

Religion offers explanations for things that science can't explain, but doesn't offer evidence to support the explanation. Science does support its claims.

Originally Posted by onion

I am not saying that taking the Bible scientifically that you can't disprove it. But I am also not saying that you can take science biblically and disprove it.

In the end the Bible is the word's of God; or inspired which means in greek "breathed". Science is an invention of man, though good to study God's creation, science has been changed and altered its core many times. The Holy Bible has never been changed or altered it's core meaning. Yes there are different versions of the Bible, but the CORE MEANING of all the verses stay the same.

And the "core meaning" of science hasn't changed either. Science is still all about learning the truth about the universe through investigation and experimentation. Science's claims change as we learn more and better evidence becomes available. Religion's claims change as well, notably as science disproves more of them. Personally, that doesn't inspire much confidence in religion.

Originally Posted by onion

I'm not here to argue your point because in life, everything you believe comes down to faith. Just like in science you have faith in what your books and teacher tells you, Christians have faith in what the Bible tells us and our teacher tells us. The difference is one is from man, the other is written by man from God.

I would say instead that everything you believe - or at least everything I believe - comes down to knowledge. Yes, I'll put faith in my physics teacher to know what he's talking about, but only because I know that the knowledge is there for me to learn myself if he doesn't. If you want to double check what a preacher says, you can't exactly go and ask god about whether there's a hell or not. It's two different kinds of faith. Trusting faith versus blind faith.

Originally Posted by onion

Let me ask you: Say the Bible is wrong. So atheists, they're right. In the end we just die. There is nothing after death. Now reverse this... what if the Bible is right? Do you want to go to hell? I'm not trying to scare you, I just think it's ridiculous people try to argue with the Bible, for truthfully no good cause. It's like me arguing with evolution. Giving you fact after fact after fact, biblically, that evolution isn't real. Well, there's no credible source for me to prove this too you because you don't believe in God, you have faith in man made theories instead. OR if you try to put evolution into my mind, and quote scientist after scientist after scientist says this about evolution, well to me, a man isn't as credible of a source as God, so therefore you have no credible sources. It's a never ended argument that will be proven when we die, it's just the fact that I know what happens after I die. And you do too, you just want to disprove it.

Ah, Pascal's Wager. I love this one. Here's my version: if you don't believe in god, and god is good, he will forgive you for being wrong, and no harm done. If you don't believe in god, and god doesn't exist, no harm done and you haven't wasted a whole bunch of Sunday mornings. If you don't believe in god and go to hell, then god is evil - or at least cruel - and it's better to fight a tyrant than obey him. Any of the three possibilities - good god, no god, evil god - atheism is either equal with or morally superior to religion.

There's plenty of good cause to argue. Atheists believe that this life is all we have, and religion causes no end of problems in it. Everything from war down to intolerant parents, religion has a fairly major hand in. I'm not claiming that the world would be a perfect place without religion, but it would certainly be a less divided one.

[Dream]

Originally Posted by BigBL87

To be fair, psychology really can't provide falsifiability for the most part, which is why it is considered a soft science, but a science none the less.

That is a misconception. People such as the Neo-Freudians are a fringe group in psychology; today, it is predominantly cognitive-behavioralism moving towards neuro-cognitive-behavioralism, and behavioralism can provide falsifiability because it deals only with observed behaviors. The reason it is considered a soft science is that it a social science even though it is largely supplemented by biology and chemistry. To call it a hard science would be to confuse psychology with biology/chemistry. Though they are combined in neurology.

[John 6:29]

We can go on and on all day about the flaws of evolution and the big bang theory, but I know nothing I can do will change your mind on it; because the only thing that can do so is God's word. I suggest reading Genesis 1-2 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=genesis+1-2 it goes into great detail about how the world was created. In fact the Bible tells us the world was a sphere. It tells us the world was expanded over empty space. It gives descriptions that no other doctrine has ever provided of creation, and all have been proven true through science.

Atheist you say believe there is no God. Well let's put it this way.... Science has said that man knows 1 billionth of everything there is to know, which in my opinion is a very generous estimate. So just to see this number it is

0.000000001% of everything

now let's be even more generous and assume ONE atheist on this world knows 1% of everything. There is still a 99% chance they are wrong.

So you say God is good? He is in a way that humanly is inconceivable. But if you deny Him in this life, He will deny you in the next. I suggest reading Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God by Jonathan Edwards and tell me what you think after that. And here are some passages that show that even though God is a good God, He is also a Just God. We have sinned against Him, which is breaking God's law. If someone were to commit murder, would you want them punished for it? Or would you just say, you know what, it's okay. You disobeyed the Law, but I'll let it pass, you're free to go..?

God is a judge. We deserve Hell.

Matthew 7:21-24 (New American Standard Bible)

21"(A)Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
22"(B)Many will say to Me on (C)that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'
23"And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; (D)DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

Lawlessness is sin.

1 John 3:4 (New American Standard Bible)

4Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and (A)sin is lawlessness.


EVERYONE has sinned.

Romans 3:23 (New American Standard Bible)

23for all (A)have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,





Sin has separated us from God.


Isaiah 59:1-2 (New American Standard Bible)

1Behold, (A)the LORD'S hand is not so short
That it cannot save;
(B)Nor is His ear so dull
That it cannot hear.
2But your (C)iniquities have made a separation between you and your God,
And your sins have hidden His face from you so that He does (D)not hear.

SIN is DEATH. Death in this passage is a SPIRITUAL separation from GOD, a.k.a HELL. But God offered a free gift.
Romans 6:23 (New American Standard Bible)

23For the wages of (A)sin is death, but the free gift of God is (B)eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.



WE MUST BE RECONCILED BACK TO GOD.

Colossians 1:19-20 (New American Standard Bible)

19For it was (A)the Father's good pleasure for all (B)the fullness to dwell in Him,
20and through Him to (C)reconcile all things to Himself, having made (D)peace through (E)the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, (F)whether things on earth or things in heaven.






JESUS is that free gift to free us from sins, God in the Human flesh. The Word is Jesus (the prophecy of the old testament).


John 1:1-5 (New American Standard Bible)

1(A)In the beginning was (B)the Word, and the Word was (C)with God, and (D)the Word was God. 2He was in the beginning with God.
3(E)All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.
4(F)In Him was life, and the life was (G)the Light of men.
5(H)The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not [a]comprehend it.



We escape Hell through belief that Jesus payed the penalty for our sins.


John 3:16 (New American Standard Bible)

16"For God so (A)loved the world, that He (B)gave His (C)only begotten Son, that whoever (D)believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.



Romans 10:13 (New American Standard Bible)

13for "(A)WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."



We tell God we believe we are saved through prayer.


And we MUST repent.


Luke 13:3 (New American Standard Bible)

3"I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.





Repentance is Greek for "to think differently or afterward i.e. to reconsider Repentance is dying to your sinful nature and desiring the things for God, and trusting in God fully to direct your life.


For more application on sin read Genesis 3.




Look, I know that this more than likely made no difference to your thinking; because of sin, we look for answers that are logical. The Bible is the only truth in this world. I will pray for you, I am not going to sit and argue about evolution etc etc, because I know that I am a changed person; and I know without a doubt there is a God and that there is a Heaven or Hell. I'm sorry if you chose to refuse this, I pray that it effects you, and anyone else who isn't saved. I can state facts and actually go into detailed science on how to disprove evolution, and the big bang theory; I tried giving common examples, but unfortunately human knowledge doesn't save anyone. It's by Grace through Faith, not by works or any other means... (Ephesians 2:8-9)


And I'll leave you with these versus to provoke your thought about science; and after this post I will not respond to this thread.

1 Timothy 6:20-21 (New American Standard Bible)

20O (A)Timothy, guard (B)what has been entrusted to you, avoiding (C)worldly and empty chatter and the opposing arguments of what is falsely called "knowledge"--



Romans 1:21-25 (New American Standard Bible)

21For even though they knew God, they did not [a]honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became (A)futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22(B)Professing to be wise, they became fools,
23and (C)exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and [b]crawling creatures.
24Therefore (D)God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be (E)dishonored among them.
25For they exchanged the truth of God for a (F)lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, (G)who is blessed forever. Amen.



1 Corinthians 1:19-28 (New American Standard Bible)

19For it is written,
"(A)I WILL DESTROY THE WISDOM OF THE WISE,
AND THE CLEVERNESS OF THE CLEVER I WILL SET ASIDE."
20(B)Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of (C)this age? Has not God (D)made foolish the wisdom of (E)the world?
21For since in the wisdom of God (F)the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, (G)God was well-pleased through the (H)foolishness of the message preached to (I)save those who believe.
22For indeed (J)Jews ask for signs and Greeks search for wisdom;
23but we preach [a](K)Christ crucified, (L)to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles (M)foolishness,
24but to those who are (N)the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ (O)the power of God and (P)the wisdom of God.
25Because the (Q)foolishness of God is wiser than men, and (R)the weakness of God is stronger than men.
26For consider your (S)calling, brethren, that there were (T)not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble;
27but (U)God has chosen the foolish things of (V)the world to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of (W)the world to shame the things which are strong,
28and the base things of (X)the world and the despised God has chosen, (Y)the things that are not, so that He may (Z)nullify the things that are, 29so that (A)no man may boast before God.



Psalm 19:1 (New American Standard Bible)

1The (A)heavens are telling of the glory of God;
And their (B)expanse is declaring the work of His hands.

Proverbs 3:5-7 (New American Standard Bible)


5(A)Trust in the LORD with all your heart
And (B)do not lean on your own understanding.
6In all your ways (C)acknowledge Him,
And He will (D)make your paths straight.
7(E)Do not be wise in your own eyes;
(F)Fear the LORD and turn away from evil.





God bless.

Message me if you have any questions, or you would like to become saved.

[Whaaatever]

Onion. If Jesus died on the cross to amend for our past and future sins, and we are condemned to hell regardless of ANYTHING we do, what did he die for exactly?

Anyway, OP. There is no physical proof of "god's" existence, at all. They can sway you with nicely phrased sentences and poems, but that's all there is to it. The only thing real about "god" is how this "idea" works on people's emotions, really all I'm going to say. :l

[John 6:29]

Originally Posted by Whaaatever

Onion. If Jesus died on the cross to amend for our past and future sins, and we are condemned to hell regardless of ANYTHING we do, what did he die for exactly?

Anyway, OP. There is no physical proof of "god's" existence, at all. They can sway you with nicely phrased sentences and poems, but that's all there is to it. The only thing real about "god" is how this "idea" works on people's emotions, really all I'm going to say. :l

No offense but I would like to direct you to the post above this. And whether you're being sarcastic, it is a good question.

Romans 6:23 (New American Standard Bible)

23For the wages of (A)sin is death, but the free gift of God is (B)eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Christ died for our sins so that we have the opportunity to put our Faith in Him, to be saved from Hell. He died for everyone, but man still has a responsibility to respond to Him and receive Him. Again Ephesians 2:8-9

Revelation 3:20 (New American Standard Bible)

20'Behold, I stand (A)at the door and (B)knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, (C)I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.



The Bible says it; I believe it.


God bless.

[Double X]

Onion, do you read all the gospels? Or only the ones that were approved by Council of Nicea? Because they did not necessarily know everything, they are only humans. Do you read Gospels that were rejected for muddy reasons but still 'accurate', like the Gospel of Barnabas or Hermas? The Bible itself wasn't compiled while Jesus was alive, but later, around 400 AD is when it was finally 'finished'.

[Xujhan]

Originally Posted by onion

We can go on and on all day about the flaws of evolution and the big bang theory, but I know nothing I can do will change your mind on it; because the only thing that can do so is God's word. I suggest reading Genesis 1-2 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=genesis+1-2 it goes into great detail about how the world was created. In fact the Bible tells us the world was a sphere. It tells us the world was expanded over empty space. It gives descriptions that no other doctrine has ever provided of creation, and all have been proven true through science.

In this you are utterly mistaken: the word of god has no chance of changing my mind; evidence does. If someone comes up with a sounder theory than evolution, I'll happily consider it. If someone finds strong evidence to disbelieve evolution, I'll happily consider that too. I've yet to run across either.

Originally Posted by onion

Atheist you say believe there is no God. Well let's put it this way.... Science has said that man knows 1 billionth of everything there is to know, which in my opinion is a very generous estimate. So just to see this number it is

0.000000001% of everything

now let's be even more generous and assume ONE atheist on this world knows 1% of everything. There is still a 99% chance they are wrong.

I fail to completely grasp your point here. It seems you are trying to say that because we know one billionth of all there is to know that we therefore have a billion to one chance about being correct on any one thing. If so, your argument is ridiculous. I don't need to know the colours of all the computers in the world to be able to know that mine is black. That there is still much yet to be discovered doesn't invalidate what things we have discovered. If I've misinterpreted your point, please enlighten me.

Originally Posted by onion

So you say God is good? He is in a way that humanly is inconceivable. But if you deny Him in this life, He will deny you in the next. I suggest reading Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God by Jonathan Edwards and tell me what you think after that. And here are some passages that show that even though God is a good God, He is also a Just God. We have sinned against Him, which is breaking God's law. If someone were to commit murder, would you want them punished for it? Or would you just say, you know what, it's okay. You disobeyed the Law, but I'll let it pass, you're free to go..?

God is a judge. We deserve Hell.

A judge who is himself beyond judgment is a tyrant. Torture is considered by humans to be abhorrent; why then is eternal torment acceptable when decreed by god? Morality is not determined by power. Laws exist to protect people and the welfare of society. God's laws it seems serve little purpose but to suit god's whims. If god's judgment of simple disbelief is as harsh as you believe, then I will judge god just as harshly.

Ninety-nine percent of the people I have met in my life have been good people. They deserve peace and happiness. No one deserves hell. It always has amused me that even though atheists believe that humanity is nothing more than a cosmic fluke, many of us still have more belief in the goodness of humanity than religion teaches. Any god who deals in punishment and judgment is one I want nothing of.

Originally Posted by onion

Repentance is Greek for "to think differently or afterward i.e. to reconsider Repentance is dying to your sinful nature and desiring the things for God, and trusting in God fully to direct your life.

For more application on sin read Genesis 3.

Look, I know that this more than likely made no difference to your thinking; because of sin, we look for answers that are logical. The Bible is the only truth in this world. I will pray for you, I am not going to sit and argue about evolution etc etc, because I know that I am a changed person; and I know without a doubt there is a God and that there is a Heaven or Hell. I'm sorry if you chose to refuse this, I pray that it effects you, and anyone else who isn't saved. I can state facts and actually go into detailed science on how to disprove evolution, and the big bang theory; I tried giving common examples, but unfortunately human knowledge doesn't save anyone. It's by Grace through Faith, not by works or any other means... (Ephesians 2:8-9)

God bless.

Message me if you have any questions, or you would like to become saved.

"You know without a doubt that there is a god?" No, you believe without a doubt that there is a god. Note the difference. Even science does not claim to know anything absolutely. If you believe yourself capable of giving a strong, logical argument refuting evolution though, I would love to hear it. To say that the bible is the only truth in the world is ridiculous; it is as much of this world as anything else; simply also many centuries out of date. And since we are giving each other reading material, I'll direct you to The God Delusion, by Richard Dawkins, if you've not read it yet.

Darwin bless.

[InSovietRussiaORGASMGotU]

Originally Posted by onion

Can you look at science religiously and still believe in evolution?

You cant analyze science via religion or religion via science. If you do, then you've managed to distort the philosophies of both and you result with some mess.

Originally Posted by onion

You can say we see evolution today, no we aren't. Have you ever seen a monkey turn into a human, and who's to say humans are the end product? Why aren't human's evolving? I understand it's a "slow process". But I've never seen a animal live a life span of a million years to evolve. Have you? Do you know anyone who's been around since the beginning of the earth and actually witnessed all of this evolving happen? No. You haven't. You believe what a book and a teacher tell you based off other peoples studies, who neither have witnessed these events. Take the giraffe, if the giraffe was made by evolution, what is stopping the giraffes head from exploding when he lowers his neck? Are you telling me this is mere coincidence? Through evolution he just accidentally grew a neck, and automatically had a blood flow that prevented this? The only real plausible explanation I can think of is God. I believe in the God of the Bible, and whether you believe in something else, well that's up to you and God will hold you responsible; but that is a different discussion.

Right I can guess you haven't delved that much into learning about evolution. Yes we can see it today through bacteria, through fruit flies, etc... . The animal doesn't need to live two million years even if it could to evolve. Evolution occurs primarily through reproduction, so the faster the rate of reproduction and the smaller the lifespan, the more likely you are to see it. Hence, your two-million animal thing makes little sense.

Seeing as how studies have used bacteria, fruit flies, possibly mice, etc... we can see evolution first-hand. So there goes your entire argument of "oh we cant see it". We can. Perhaps we cannot see it in humans, however, we can generalize the studies on other organisms to humans.

For the giraffes, there are a few theories. First, longer necks to reach the vegetation. Second, longer necks for fighting as giraffes have been noted to fight by bashing their heads against the opponent. A longer neck means more leverage and power, and a larger and stronger head means that the winning giraffe isn't completely screwed from the fight.

The only reason why you choose god is simple. You seem to know very little about what you are refuting but you do know a good amount of what you are in support of.

Originally Posted by onion

There are evidences of God that science cannot explain; that the Bible explain. There are things that science explains that the Bible does not explain.

What is your point? You've shown the perhaps neither is perfect or that one is perfect but we cant see which one it is. Either way, I'm not understanding what the point is that you're trying to make.

Originally Posted by onion

I am not saying that taking the Bible scientifically that you can't disprove it. But I am also not saying that you can take science biblically and disprove it.

Really? So your first sentence of:

Can you look at science religiously and still believe in evolution?

Is then just redundant?

Originally Posted by onion

In the end the Bible is the word's of God; or inspired which means in greek "breathed". Science is an invention of man, though good to study God's creation, science has been changed and altered its core many times. The Holy Bible has never been changed or altered it's core meaning. Yes there are different versions of the Bible, but the CORE MEANING of all the verses stay the same.

The core purpose of science hasn't changed either. The new technology helps science achieve its core goals but those core goals have not changed.

Originally Posted by onion

I'm not here to argue your point because in life, everything you believe comes down to faith. Just like in science you have faith in what your books and teacher tells you, Christians have faith in what the Bible tells us and our teacher tells us. The difference is one is from man, the other is written by man from God.

But the difference is that one may have blind faith as opposed to just faith. You also have differing paradigms.

Originally Posted by onion

Let me ask you: Say the Bible is wrong. So atheists, they're right. In the end we just die. There is nothing after death. Now reverse this... what if the Bible is right? Do you want to go to hell? I'm not trying to scare you, I just think it's ridiculous people try to argue with the Bible, for truthfully no good cause. It's like me arguing with evolution. Giving you fact after fact after fact, biblically, that evolution isn't real. Well, there's no credible source for me to prove this too you because you don't believe in God, you have faith in man made theories instead. OR if you try to put evolution into my mind, and quote scientist after scientist after scientist says this about evolution, well to me, a man isn't as credible of a source as God, so therefore you have no credible sources. It's a never ended argument that will be proven when we die, it's just the fact that I know what happens after I die. And you do too, you just want to disprove it.

Oh, so we want to disprove it? Why exactly would we want to disprove it while you don't want to disprove it?

Atheist you say believe there is no God. Well let's put it this way.... Science has said that man knows 1 billionth of everything there is to know, which in my opinion is a very generous estimate. So just to see this number it is

0.000000001% of everything

now let's be even more generous and assume ONE atheist on this world knows 1% of everything. There is still a 99% chance they are wrong.

Nice, now you're addressing people as "Atheist". I guess I'll address you as Christian.

That aside, I haven't a clue what you're babbling about. You've shown humans regardless of religious beliefs don't know a whole lot about the universe. This isn't a ground-breaking realization so I fail to see what your point is.

In the unlikely event you wanted to spin this in favour of your religious beliefs, then doing so would only go against your argument, which makes me wonder even more why you decided to post such babble.

Originally Posted by Onion

We can go on and on all day about the flaws of evolution and the big bang theory, but I know nothing I can do will change your mind on it; because the only thing that can do so is God's word. I suggest reading Genesis 1-2 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=genesis+1-2 it goes into great detail about how the world was created. In fact the Bible tells us the world was a sphere. It tells us the world was expanded over empty space. It gives descriptions that no other doctrine has ever provided of creation, and all have been proven true through science.

Is it just me or did you just say that your biblical passages cannot move us on our scientific minds and vice-verca? Yet now, you're tossing out biblical passages to perhaps change a scientist's mind?

Originally Posted by Onion

So you say God is good? He is in a way that humanly is inconceivable. But if you deny Him in this life, He will deny you in the next. I suggest reading Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God by Jonathan Edwards and tell me what you think after that. And here are some passages that show that even though God is a good God, He is also a Just God. We have sinned against Him, which is breaking God's law. If someone were to commit murder, would you want them punished for it? Or would you just say, you know what, it's okay. You disobeyed the Law, but I'll let it pass, you're free to go..?

God is a judge. We deserve Hell.

God isn't exactly the best judge. For one, he's rather sadistic, bloodthirsty, jealous at times, irrational, biased, a tyrant, etc... . That's not my view of a good judge.

But perhaps you can explain this to me. If Jesus died on the cross for our sins, then why would God punish us later? We were forgiven before we even did them yet if we're to be punished anyways, then that must make Jesus on the cross rather pointless.

But then comes the kicker: you can get forgiven or pardoned for your sins if you show remorse, empathy, etc... . That's like a judge asking a mass-murderer, "are you sorry for what you've done?". If the mass-murderer says he/she is sorry, then they're let go yet if they're not then off they go to possible get tortured endlessly. That's not very just now is it?

Originally Posted by Onion

Repentance is Greek for "to think differently or afterward i.e. to reconsider Repentance is dying to your sinful nature and desiring the things for God, and trusting in God fully to direct your life.

For more application on sin read Genesis 3.

Look, I know that this more than likely made no difference to your thinking; because of sin, we look for answers that are logical. The Bible is the only truth in this world. I will pray for you, I am not going to sit and argue about evolution etc etc, because I know that I am a changed person; and I know without a doubt there is a God and that there is a Heaven or Hell. I'm sorry if you chose to refuse this, I pray that it effects you, and anyone else who isn't saved. I can state facts and actually go into detailed science on how to disprove evolution, and the big bang theory; I tried giving common examples, but unfortunately human knowledge doesn't save anyone. It's by Grace through Faith, not by works or any other means... (Ephesians 2:8-9)

God bless.

Message me if you have any questions, or you would like to become saved.

I'll speak for myself, you can quit it with your little preaching and attempts to convert others.

I guess that this also means that above when you said that your biblical passages cannot change our minds and our scientific stuff cannot change yours, you didn't really mean that did you? If you did, then why would you be attempting to "save" someone? So I think it's safe to say that you're being hypocritical on that.

[Random_Girl_26]

So, I´m not religious, just to get that out of the way. Anyway, one of my science teachers, who was a Christian, said once that to him science proves the existence of a God. He said that if you believe in the Big Bang Theory (a scientific theory), it proves that there is a God. Explained: the Big Bang Theory kind of says that the Bang caused everything happen, like Earth being created, and that everything is caused by something, ¨For every action, there is a Reaction¨, ¨Cause and Effect¨, so if following the laws of the Big Bang Theory, if the Big Bang caused everything to be created, What caused the Big Bang??? This is where by teacher said that it proves, to him, that there must be a God, because God could be the only thing that could cause the Big Bag! If you will... think about that.

[Double X]

Originally Posted by Random_Girl_26

So, I´m not religious, just to get that out of the way. Anyway, one of my science teachers, who was a Christian, said once that to him science proves the existence of a God. He said that if you believe in the Big Bang Theory (a scientific theory), it proves that there is a God. Explained: the Big Bang Theory kind of says that the Bang caused everything happen, like Earth being created, and that everything is caused by something, ¨For every action, there is a Reaction¨, ¨Cause and Effect¨, so if following the laws of the Big Bang Theory, if the Big Bang caused everything to be created, What caused the Big Bang??? This is where by teacher said that it proves, to him, that there must be a God, because God could be the only thing that could cause the Big Bag! If you will... think about that.

Do what caused God then?

[John 6:29]

Yes my first sentence is redundant. It's imposing the same question the author of this thread asked, because their question is also redundant. If you read my passages, God said He made the foolishness of the world, the wise of the world. And because people seek earthly wisdom, they reject God. The other passages warn us of science, and the folly of man's ways. Look. I am not here to argue. So This WILL be my last post, just to clarify somethings up; not to impose more arguments.

Let me clarify: I was saying, anything that I say in word's cannot change your mind on God. The Bible and God are the only people who can change anyone's mind. The Bible is "sharper than any two edged sword". But in the same token, believing in God is a process having faith isn't something that is one day there. So by "planting" the seed of God's word into the people who read it, God will use it to grow in them, and maybe one day they will come to Salvation. I have no mean's to convert people, only offer what I feel is truth, and if anyone becomes saved, I would like to pray for them so they aren't tempted to stray from God. My argument of nothing I say will change your mind stands firm because I can say something to plant the seed but ultimately God will change it, and the reason I can't change your mind is because I am not a credible source, but the Bible is because it has been around for a long period of time, but ultimately takes faith to believe it. Much like science takes faith in human observations in order to believe it and because I have little faith in humans, science does not have many credible sources in my eyes.

Let me say, I find it funny that a few of you argue that the Bible has no power to change anyone's mind. If this isn't the truth than religion is worthless, the millions of people in any religion wouldn't need their Bible, Koran, or whatever it is they study, and could find their religion on their own without their Bible. If you have attended and known people who were "deep in sin" and showed them passages in the Bible, and watch their lives completely change, I think you would agree with me on the fact that the Bible has a divine power. Truthfully I am a testimony to that because I was deep in sin and the Bible completely turned my life around. If the Bible doesn't change mind's then this whole argument is pointless and you would have people like Richard Dawkins writing books to influence minds of others away from religion. People wouldn't be so offended over the Bible and it's teachings. Simply put, if the Bible doesn't effect anyone's life then why is it such a big deal for you to repute it? If it has no effect or affect, on anyone's life, then please by all means, stop arguing with me, because you know that what I am saying will not effect anyone including you or myself.

I never said the core purpose of the bible changed, I said the core meaning of it never has. Science is always finding out new observations, and new things that they once believed to be false. The Bible's beliefs, verses, etc, have NEVER changed their meaning. Irregardless of what people deem to be contradictions in the Bible, it has always stayed the same.

As I've stated Science and Religion both take faith. As I've quoted the Bible states that the foolishness of man has become the wisdom of the world, and the foolishness of God is much wiser than the wisdom of the world. Therefore you say that one is blind faith and the other is faith. I'm assuming you consider science faith; and religion blind faith. Well I guess that's all a matter of opinion. Is putting your faith in the wisdom of man or the wisdom of God more foolish? Consider the verse I mentioned I'd say I'd rather put my faith in the wisdom of God. In the end science is all observations of man, and I don't want to know how often man's calculations are wrong. I am not saying that science doesn't provide great technology, and great advances in our world today, but looking at Creationism vs Science, whichever you believe is purely off faith. If this weren't so then the big bang theory wouldn't be starting to get over ruled by a creationist theory by scientist all over. Again this comes back to science changing their core beliefs once again.

I am not trying to disprove you. I am simply asking, if you are athiest, or believe that this life is all we have to live then... Say in the end of the world I am wrong about God, but I lived a happy life serving Him, and others. And I die, to find out that my 80 or so years on earth, was all there was to live. Big deal, right? It won't matter because I am dead, and there's nothing after. I lived a good life, and now I'm gone, everything earthly is gone, and I'm in a grave. Now we turn the tables, in the end you live your 80 years happily serving yourself, in whatever it is you like to do whether that be drinking, hanging out with friends, education, WHATEVER it is you like. And you die, and you find out you were wrong, and God is very much real. Then what? Were you're 80 years happily on earth worth the eternity of hell? It's just a question, I am not trying to disprove anything I am just asking you... what if? I think viewing life on earth 80 years and that is it is a very sad take on this world. But by all means if that's what you believe, well I hope you squeeze all this world has to offer you. And make your time here worth it, whether your wrong or I am wrong.

I never once addressed anyone as an athiest. I am simply stating that in order to be an athiest, you conclude there is no God. Yet to conclude there is no God, you must know everything there is about the world, to come to the SOLID fact that there is no God. You may not believe in God, but either way you do not know for SURE that there is not God. So my example of the one billionth of everything is to show, that it is impossible for one person to know everything, let a lone 1 percent of everything. So if an athiest concludes, "I know there is no God", how can he know that for certain, if there is still 99% of the world to know for sure? It is not saying that we have a One in one billionth chance to know something it is simply saying that, God is one of these topics that by human standards, we will never know truly exists until the end of time, because since GOD is invisible, you cannot conclude FOR A FACT that he does not exist. Yes there are certain things we can conclude for sure, but concludding there is not God, is the same a concludding that in a universe so large that there is no life on another planet. We do not know if there is life on another planet, and we don't know if there is no life on another planet. All we have are theories. Much like it is with God, but if you have Faith in Him there is a sense of knowledge that He does exist. And in MY opinion there are many things in this world that I don't believe science will ever explain, and truthfully in MY eyes can only be concludded by a creator. Take a wrist watch for example, you can look at the complexity of it and conclude that there is a creator. Now look at the human brain, it processes colors, images, temperatures, pressures on your body, the taste in our mouth, the dryness of our mouths, it takes in sounds, and the feelings of different objects. It can process over 1million messages in any given second. It produces feelings, relates us to people, and tells us what actions to take. It sends electric signals between brainwaves that computes all this information. For me, the complexity of a human body is enough evidence for me that God exists, now science can say this is why our body reacts this way when this happens etc, but it cannot explain how it developed every aspect that our body contains, through evolution, and how it all so happened by accident. You can continue believing all you want, whatever you want, but for me... this is just astounding, and it is only ONE part of the human body, not to mention everything else in this world and how if certain species were to disapear off the planets, life would cease to exist. It's all to complex to conclude that it all happened without a creator, and again that is just my opinion.

You question about God being a judge... it all comes back to the wisdom of the world. Our view of what is right, and what is fair, is far different from a being that had the intelligence just to speak and it came into existence, it wasn't a process, creation was a finished product of God's word's. The repentance we give to God, is a change of life style, we are punished in court in order to correct behavior. When we are not saved, we have already been judged by God into hell. When we repent, we have corrected our behavior. And God views us as SINLESS. He views us just as He viewed Jesus, perfect. We are called to repentance, because man hated God. We sinned against Him, were made to have a relationship to Him, and because Jesus died on the cross we have a responsibilty to put our Faith that Jesus will save us from Hell, by chosing to obey God, so that we can be reconciled back to Him, and have the relationship we were meant to have. As far as the 99% of people being good people. I would disagree. Yes, by earthly standards, they may be genuinely nice, which is why I wish no one to go to Hell. Even people that hate me, I wish they'd come to Salvation. But by saying generally people are good and don't deserve Hell, we deserve Hell because of sin. I mean even by earthly standards, open your history books, look how much hate people have in this world. Or read about the crucifiction and beating of Christ, I know you do not believe in God, but Jesus was a man and there is historic proof Jesus was a live and killed, I believe Jesus was God in Human form... you may chose not to believe this, but none the less He existed, and people beat Him and crucified Him, and put Him to death, for CURING people, for HEALING lepers, blind people, and even raising dead people to life. Maybe you chose not to believe these miracles, but eventually Christ claimed to be the Son of God, an Equal to God. Mankind HATED Him for this, I mean just watch the passion of the Christ, if you don't feel like reading about it. You are telling me these are good people? Our sin, your sin, my sin, those people's sin is what crucified and killed that man. He died for EVERYONE, not just those people who crucified Him. And as He hung on the tree, and they put viniger in His cuts, He forgave them. I think your speculation of people being generally good people is far from the truth. If that were truth, there would be no wars, there would be no greed, there would be no anger, there would be no jealousy, there wouldn't be people cheating on their wives. Look around you, this world is corrupt.

I am not preaching. I am offering advice, and explaining why we need forgiveness, and why we need God. And what exactly sin is, and why the world is where it is today. You don't have to read any of that if you chose not to. I am not looking to convert anyone, I just have a general sorrowness for the people who chose to reject a free gift from God, in order to escape Hell. It's very saddening to me. All I do is show what I believe and you just argue it, after saying that the Bible has no influence over lives, because it has no facts. Well then why even argue with me, isn't it a waste of time? I guess I can't expect any different, considering that too is includded in the Bible, and just as Jesus was persecuted so are Christian's for following Him. It's not that I personally am offended, I just feel sorry for you. Again what would you do if you died today and found out God was real? Once you die, God will judge you. There is no turning back and saying, I'm sorry, I believe in you now. Because you had no Faith in Him on earth, He will not be gracious to save you at death. And for that reason I feel bad. Especially for people such as Dawkins.

Like I said this is my last post, if you have further questions, PM me. I do not wish to cause a huge flame on the forums. Even if you wish to rebule this post. Just PM me, and I will respond. I hope you all find favor with God.

God bless.

[Annoni]

Question guys,

Why must a few of us more radical Christians constantly get stuck answering your questions?

We answer them, you do not take them. Why do you bother asking? Sure, if the answers raise questions, we'll answer them, but when we pour our hearts into an answer for you, addressing everything you can think of, and still say, "I don't believe you" when we answered, in truth, it feels exasperating. We've done all we can and more, through the word of God, through the Holy Spirit, we're all trying to answer you here.

Honestly it's making quite a few people feel used on here. We answer, and answer, we find our comfort in God after but you seem to only mock us and the Bible. I know there are some of you, I'm not going to say names, but some of you go through these debates either to laugh at us or mock us. That is definitely not respectful, especially when we are answering all your questions out of a selfless love! We don't mind the time it takes, the sore fingers and wrists we may get, we stick to here and answer you, in all the truth we can know.
Yet none of it has ever affected your beliefs or views. I constantly think about everyone here, why you even ask... but I know there is a reason I cannot fathom, so I leave it to be and pray, and we all continue to answer you all, in selfless love, no matter if we're mocked or laughed at.
Makes you wonder if there's really something to what we say, when we do all this, no matter what.

I guess I'm just asking for a bit more respect. When one of you asks a question regarding God, Christianity, or God's views, and we answer you with the Bible's words, which is the Word of God, there should be no further question on the subject. If you are talking of our God, the Bible is His word to us. It's our little book of answers if we choose to use it that way. Instead you choose to say, "I don't count the Bible, so tell me what God really thinks." How do you think we know of God? Through prayer and the bible, and since none of you will trust the Voice of God that we hear within our own hearts, we can only show you the bible.

We gave you what you asked for. We showed you what is, in a way, God's journal. There is no better way to know His opinion on a subject other than talking with Him. If you discount the Bible, then why are you even asking of God's opinion? It is said in Revelation 22, the very end, "I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book, and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.". You have all heard portions of it, yet you deny it with no different thinking.

I offer the very same things onion has. If you have questions even to mock me, I will answer them with the truth I know through God and His word. If you wish to become saved, all you have to do is PM me and I will guide you. In fact, I'm sure if you asked, both me and onion could offer both of our perspectives on being saved and any questions you have at the same time, if you asked.

So sum it all up quickly...
Yes, in ways, you can believe in God while looking at religion scientifically. But only if you take the word of God and apply it to the scientific findings you see. Remember God is unfathomable to us, and we know so little of science to begin with. God has given us all we need to know about Him through a book. Where is science getting you? At knowing 0.000000001% of everything, we can still know God a whole lot more than that. Science can lead some people there. Science can lead others away. It all depends on how you look at it.

That is all I have to say here. You have all had your chances for what you want, and we have given selflessly.

God Bless.

[Xujhan]

Speaking only for myself here, but I don't take part in these debates to mock anyone; if I were so inclined, the internet is full of much easier targets. I take part because I find them genuinely interesting. I enjoy being tasked to contemplate my beliefs, to consider questions of morality, and to then communicate what I've thought. I enjoy anything that forces me to think seriously about serious topics. I certainly learn from these, and I hope I manage to inspire a little learning as well.

As for disregarding the bible, I admit to generally doing so, but not for the reasons you've inferred. When I'm debating, I want to know what you think, and for you to respond to what I've said. That's the intent behind my debating; so we can both learn something. When you - and I mean a general you, not you specifically Nic - instead simply parrot quotes from the bible that I've heard several times already, neither of us learns anything, and that gets frustrating.

As an atheist though, one of the more frustrating things about religion is the air of untouchability that some people give it. I don't mean any offense to anyone by questioning their religion, but part of my beliefs are that we as humans should question everything. In my eyes, that's the only way we learn. I don't normally speak as forcefully or as forwardly on the matter as I do here, but once someone's joined the debate I generally consider it fair game. I do apologize if I've offended anyone, but I don't apologize for my beliefs any more than you do; and neither of us should have to.

[Annoni]

And I respect all that, I really do

And I never tried to just parrot quotes, I know that gets annoying
That's why I always tried my best before in other threads to flesh them out and explain them more than just, "Here's a bible quote. Now bow down to God". Doesn't quite work that way.

And I agree! Feel free to question everything. To do some things without an original question is foolish. Even following God, in some respects, requires a lot of questions. You don't know anything about God or the Bible by not having questions to be answered.

I may seem a bit too direct at times, but like you, I am neither ashamed or sorry. I am passionate about this, and I have every right to, and everyone else has a right to be passionate about something else.

I feel like I have said 'and' a lot.

[TakeTheLeap]

Originally Posted by onion

The Bible says it; I believe it.

So, do you believe, in your heart of hearts, that the world is only 4,000 years old?
According to the bible, the earth was created in 7 days. The earth as we see it? Or maybe something different that evolved into what it is today? According to science, it took a LONG time for the earth to form the way we see it. Big Bang took a minimal amount of time, but life developed over a series of thousands, and even millions of years.

But let me pose this question for you:
Is "7 days" (well, 6, but 7 because of God's resting day) in the bible really that literal? Or is it possible that when the Bible was written, people couldn't fathom such a HUGE amount of time, so the people (yes, people) who wrote the bible, put it in words that people could understand? Is it possible that, when the bible was written, they didn't understand the earth's past so they couldn't write quite so accurately as we see things now, but by writing what they knew and understood? So isn't it possible that science and religion can coincide? If we don't take the Bible quite so literally, everything can fit. People have this strange conception that you either have one or the other. But what about Christian scientists? Why not confirm one with the other?

Taking the bible literally is NOT necessarily what they meant when they wrote it. Yes, some of it can be literal, but, even Jesus told parables. There are stories all throughout the bible that are meant to teach a lesson. That doesn't mean you should take it literally.
A tiny passage may not mean what you want it to mean if it's in the context of a story. You can't sit here and quote verses without knowing the full text. If you're going to quote, quote a chapter rather than a verse. Some things end up being negated, or the meaning could be changed. Or it could just be a story.

Take, for example, the Levitical Laws. The entire book of Leviticus is almost entirely filled with the, "Code of Conduct," for Jews. The first 5 books of the Old Testament, the Pentatuk, is the Jewish Torah. While, yes, there are some important things to learn from these books in both Judaism and Christianity, you can't sit there and tell me that you believe every law in Leviticus. There are WAY too many to be able to know and follow them all. In Leviticus and Deuteronomy alone, I believe there are 400, if not more, laws the Bible says we should follow.
As you well know, we don't follow all of those. Most Christians eat pork, which Jews consider to be unkosher. If the Bible states that we shouldn't eat unkosher foods, why do we do it?
Who's to decide what parts of the bible we should follow, and what parts we shouldn't? Why do people choose to quote some verses but not others? If it confirms their beliefs, they quote it. If it makes them question something they believe, they don't. And when people question a verse, or quote something else they don't like, they just waive it, or say, "That doesn't mean anything." But why doesn't it?
If the Bible says it, and you believe it, why don't you follow everything the Bible says?

[Annoni]

Originally Posted by ~Emily~

Is "7 days" in the bible really that literal? Or is it possible that when the Bible was written, people couldn't fathom such a HUGE amount of time, so the people (yes, people) who wrote the bible, put it in words that people could understand? Is it possible that, when the bible was written, they didn't understand the earth's past so they couldn't write quite so accurately as we see things now, but by writing what they knew and understood? So isn't it possible that science and religion can coincide? If we don't take the Bible quite so literally, everything can fit. People have this strange conception that you either have one or the other. But what about Christian scientists? Why not confirm one with the other?

The 7 days is literal, in a sense. But we don't know if it was 7 days in God's time, or our time. God is quite out of time. Jesus was in our time. The Holy Spirit exists in our time. However, out of the Trinity, God is not exactly in our time. Could've been seconds to us, could've been trillions of years. We don't know.

Anything else I didn't answer is probably because it's been said multiple times throughout either this thread or another. You can search if you want the answers, or PM me.

[John 6:29]

1) I do not know the age of the world. But most christians believe it is 6-10K years old because of the Jewish calendar. The Bible doesn't tell us how old the world is, again all of these are based off History and Science, both subjects not as reliable as the Bible.

2) The world as Annonni said was created in 7 days, but as to what 7 days really means who knows. And it was not 7 days, it was 6. Also as I've pointed in verses above, science, although is helpful in some aspects, when examining history, etc, can often times be wrong, because it is the wisdom of the world, but it is also the wisdom of the world who rejected God, now you tell me how is that wise? Also as far as parables go. They are considered fiction by mans term, but are they really fiction? Jesus was God, He knew everything. Perhaps these parables were real stories?

3) The old testament is a prophecy, it is all in accordance to the new testament. The laws of the old testament are different from the laws of the new testament, we are now under new testament law because we now have the Christ. In old testament they only talked about the coming of the Christ. And in the new testament every thing the old testament prophesied came true. Which is remarkable considering none of the writers of the old testament truly knew each other. But the laws are different, e.g. we don't have to slaughter a lamb anymore on the first of every week for our sins.



As I said before please PM me.

[Annoni]

Originally Posted by onion

And it was not 7 days, it was 6.

Oops

I apologize to everyone for not noticing that. My bad.