Triggering: Scientology: Cult or Religion debate

[CoolBluAly]

My cousin and I have lately studied and learned about Scientology, and we thought it would be interesting to see what other people know about it. I will appologize ahead of time- doing this on my iPod so I may spell somethings wrong- anyway so what do you all know about it? And is it a cult, religion, way of life (or some people think it's a business). ****We do not mean to be offesinve at all, we are just stating facts and other people have stated- if you are going to add something, please do not be offensive to this beilef****
Here are some facts:
-scientology was established by L. Ron Hubbard in 1954
-L. Ron Hubbard was a science fiction writter
-On average, it costs $6000 as a base price, and there are also "auditing" and "run downs"-an average scientologist can spend around $15000
-Many celeberties are scientologists; Tom Cruise, John Travolta, Ect.,
-L. Ron Hubbard said himself,"Writting for a penny a word is ridiculous. If a man really wants to make a million dollars, the best way would be to start his own religion."
-While many people make fun of christanity, juddism and many other religions, several scientologists were very upset when south park had an episode about it
-Many people belive it's a religion, others say it's a cult and others say it's a business.
-Dont know what it's beliefs are? Visit: Scientology --- What exactly do Scientologists believe? Here is the answer. <p>

From our facts and what we know, be belive it's a cult more than a religion. For one, people worship their leaders, their devotion to the idea, people have to pay to be scientologists, and it has not been fully reconized as a religion yet. What do you guys know and/or think?

[PhoenixAlive]

I would say that it is a cult, because firstly, you have to pay money for spiritual services, and secondly, because they seem very closed-mouthed about their beliefs. From what I have read on Wiki though, as well as the link the OP provided, these beliefs are definitely unconventional.

[Union Of V]

Pyramid scheme and physical "ruler" (a person not a mythical God). Therefore a cult.

[losing touch.]

i find the whole scientology thing kinda weird. i don't pretend to know much about it, but from what i've heard from a friend of mine who's mum is pretty into it.. it's kinda cult-ish.

[InSovietRussiaORGASMGotU]

I'd consider it a cult but then again, depending on the definition you use, a religion can also be a cult, so in theory, scientology can be both a religion and a cult. However, paying to be part of the group seems a bit odd to me. If you stop paying, then you're out? That sounds more like a business to me rather than a religion. However, I would consider it a cult (bare in mind though my first sentence).

About the south park episode offending them... just let it go. It's a cartoon, there's a warning before hand that it may offend viewers, there's an age-rating on it, so you went in knowing you may be offended by it. Whining that you were offended by it is only going to make those people look childish for their behavior.

[Dream]

Its a cult/unethical business/scary organization. They should warn people about it here like they do in Germany.

[Oiseau the Little Bird!]

Scientology: The truth rundown | Tampabay.com St. Petersburg Times
Ex-Scientology Kids
Scientology Disconnection - Personal stories, current practices, official policies, public relations
Operation Clambake - The Inner Secrets Of Scientology

These.

I have been against Scientology for years and fully believe that it is a pyramid scheme/cult that results in the emotional and physical damage of human beings every day. The first link is particularly amazing since 4 high standing officials that worked closely with David Miscarriage recently defected.

[BigBL87]

Originally Posted by Oiseau the Little Bird!

Scientology: The truth rundown | Tampabay.com St. Petersburg Times
Ex-Scientology Kids
Scientology Disconnection - Personal stories, current practices, official policies, public relations
Operation Clambake - The Inner Secrets Of Scientology

These.

I have been against Scientology for years and fully believe that it is a pyramid scheme/cult that results in the emotional and physical damage of human beings every day. The first link is particularly amazing since 4 high standing officials that worked closely with David Miscarriage recently defected.

This pretty much sums it up for me.

[thebigmole]

I think it's a fad, an expensive fad. I don't think it's going to last much longer now that it's such a big deal.

[Blackwing]

Not sure what to say not many of them in Arizona or at least I've seen or heard of.

[Algernon]

Highly disagree with the "religion" being true. It was "established" therefore It's a cult. Based and founded on many of the facts brought up already.

[InSovietRussiaORGASMGotU]

Originally Posted by xHolyValorx

Highly disagree with the "religion" being true. It was "established" therefore It's a cult. Based and founded on many of the facts brought up already.

Hang on, wasn't Christianity also established? That must make it a cult. So scientology and christianity then both have two things in common. I wonder if scientology then would also be a religion.

[Oiseau the Little Bird!]

ang on, wasn't Christianity also established? That must make it a cult. So scientology and christianity then both have two things in common. I wonder if scientology then would also be a religion.

I am under the impression that most religions were established eventually. And we could always assume that every religion is a cult based on definition.

However, with the knowledge that we have now about Scientology, I don't even play the "believe in what you want so long as it doesn't hurt other people" card; There is no faith involved with Scientology -- it's about money and power. (Though arguably, so is every major religion ) And that's what makes Scientology a cult as opposed to a religion.

[InSovietRussiaORGASMGotU]

Originally Posted by Oiseau the Little Bird!

I am under the impression that most religions were established eventually. And we could always assume that every religion is a cult based on definition.

Which is what makes debates about whether a certain thing is a religion or cult usually pointless.

Originally Posted by Oiseau the Little Bird!

However, with the knowledge that we have now about Scientology, I don't even play the "believe in what you want so long as it doesn't hurt other people" card; There is no faith involved with Scientology -- it's about money and power. (Though arguably, so is every major religion ) And that's what makes Scientology a cult as opposed to a religion.

Well, you're right, money and power seem to be the focus of many majors religions. I think that some faith is involved, however, it does scream "I'm a pyramid scheme" to me loud and clear. The question for me though, is there enough faith involved for it to be considered a religion?

[Exelus]

Originally Posted by Oiseau the Little Bird!

I am under the impression that most religions were established eventually. And we could always assume that every religion is a cult based on definition.

However, with the knowledge that we have now about Scientology, I don't even play the "believe in what you want so long as it doesn't hurt other people" card; There is no faith involved with Scientology -- it's about money and power. (Though arguably, so is every major religion ) And that's what makes Scientology a cult as opposed to a religion.

Haha! I don't know if you know this, but Hinduism was not 'established'. It's the oldest known religion, and it does not have a starting date. It has evolved from years of their caste system and collective beliefs. I guess by your logic, everything else is just a cult. And if the above quote actually sums up what you believe... I think you really need to rethink your thesis on religion. No offense, but every religion involves faith. Including Scientology. And I believe Scientology is a religion because the line between cult and religion is very fine, and very blurred.

[Oiseau the Little Bird!]

Originally Posted by Exelus

Haha! I don't know if you know this, but Hinduism was not 'established'. It's the oldest known religion, and it does not have a starting date. It has evolved from years of their caste system and collective beliefs. I guess by your logic, everything else is just a cult. And if the above quote actually sums up what you believe... I think you really need to rethink your thesis on religion. No offense, but every religion involves faith. Including Scientology. And I believe Scientology is a religion because the line between cult and religion is very fine, and very blurred.

Well first off, thanks for informing me that Hinduism was not established. Honestly, I didn't know that was the case.

Also, the definition of a cult is, according to Google, is "followers of an exclusive system of religious beliefs and practices," which can be applied to most, if not all religions -- but I said it mostly because it's not something we're going to do. Not to mention, "cult" also comes with a negative connotation that stirs up images of people in black robes and drinking nasty Kool-Aid. I, myself, do not believe that every religion is a cult.

I have a very hard time believing that Scientologists believe in anything except the weird justification they have for ruining hundreds of thousands of lives. I mean, read what these people have gone through trying to better themselves through Scientology. Fooled into thinking that they can get rid of every problem and stress in their lives only to be abused mentally and physically, their money drained, and when they try to get out (which personally I find to be another big indicator of a cult), people do everything they can to stop them, and if they don't succeed, they ruin the person's life. I mean, shit, they make them sign a contract to promise them not to talk bad about the church. And also, Fair Game policy? These all seem like obvious points to me.

[Algernon]

Originally Posted by YourNightmare

Hang on, wasn't Christianity also established? That must make it a cult. So scientology and christianity then both have two things in common. I wonder if scientology then would also be a religion.

No, I mean, It just came up. Christianity has the belief of a savior, that's where our belief came from.

What's your take on Scientology?

[Grizabella]

Scientology beliefs seem very weird to me, but honestly, not much weirder than mainstream religions' beliefs. It does seem to be very manipulative though.

[InSovietRussiaORGASMGotU]

Originally Posted by xHolyValorx

No, I mean, It just came up. Christianity has the belief of a savior, that's where our belief came from.

What's your take on Scientology?

It just came up, as in you mean to say it's recent? Time is of no factor for it to be "established".

If you mean it just randomly popped up out of the blue, then sorry to say but you can give the same argument for Christianity. A long, long time ago, someone or a group of someones created the idea of it, hence, it just came up also.

My take on scientology is that it seems much like a pyramid-scheme that is not very well disguised. I'd say it is both a religion and possibly a cult, but then again, I'd say the exact same thing for Christianity (minus the pyramid-scheme, unless a certain church or some sub-group is one).

[Union Of V]

Originally Posted by YourNightmare

It just came up, as in you mean to say it's recent? Time is of no factor for it to be "established".

If you mean it just randomly popped up out of the blue, then sorry to say but you can give the same argument for Christianity. A long, long time ago, someone or a group of someones created the idea of it, hence, it just came up also.

The usual take on this is that once the "cult-leader" has become a quasi-mythical figure the cult becomes a religion.

[Dream]

Most if not all religions start out as cults. The difference is some go mainstream while others exploit people. Scientology wont survive long term unless it changes drastically.

[Algernon]

Originally Posted by YourNightmare

It just came up, as in you mean to say it's recent? Time is of no factor for it to be "established".

If you mean it just randomly popped up out of the blue, then sorry to say but you can give the same argument for Christianity. A long, long time ago, someone or a group of someones created the idea of it, hence, it just came up also.

My take on scientology is that it seems much like a pyramid-scheme that is not very well disguised. I'd say it is both a religion and possibly a cult, but then again, I'd say the exact same thing for Christianity (minus the pyramid-scheme, unless a certain church or some sub-group is one).

We believe we have a savior. Scientology doesn't. It's a way of life, not so much as a belief in the afterlife.

[Dream]

Originally Posted by xHolyValorx

We believe we have a savior. Scientology doesn't. It's a way of life, not so much as a belief in the afterlife.

I thought Ron Hubbard was the Scientologists savior?

[Algernon]

Originally Posted by Dream

I thought Ron Hubbard was the Scientologists savior?

Did he die for the sin of world?

[Katieeee]

Last time I checked, this was about Scientology not Christianity. Can we please attempt to stay on topic? Evidently, it's difficult...

[Algernon]

Originally Posted by Katieeee

Last time I checked, this was about Scientology not Christianity. Can we please attempt to stay on topic? Evidently, it's difficult...

Okay, as already said. There is no faith involved with scientology. Does that make better sense?

[Grizabella]

Could you call belief in Xenu faith? They don't learn about him until they reach the upper levels of their training, but he is a mythical figure they believe in.

[TigerTank77]

I think it's probably one of the greatest scams of all time.

The not so "pretty" history of Scientology (Heads up, the video is rather disturbing at some parts. Do not watch if you frighten easily)
YouTube - The Un-Funny TRUTH about Scientology

[InSovietRussiaORGASMGotU]

Originally Posted by Katieeee

Last time I checked, this was about Scientology not Christianity. Can we please attempt to stay on topic? Evidently, it's difficult...

Damn, that's what this thread is about. Well, it fooled me completely. But, bright gal like yourself steered us correctly... . But it is very very difficult to stay on track.

By the way, since you decided to pop in here and steer us correctly with your wisdom and intelligence, I wonder, what is your opinion on scien- I mean Chris... scientology?

[Dream]

Originally Posted by xHolyValorx

Okay, as already said. There is no faith involved with scientology. Does that make better sense?

Of course there is faith in Scientology. Thetans aren't common knowledge, now are they?

Originally Posted by xHolyValorx

Did he die for the sin of world?

I don't know. Does one have to die for the sin of the world to be a savior? I didn't know there was a specific criteria. Anyway, try asking a Scientologist what he did.

Also, I was somewhat joking when I said that.

[Grizabella]

I went by the Church of Scientology building in Vancouver yesterday while I was on the bus...I was very surprised to see it where it is. For a society that sucks so much money out of its followers, it sure was in a pretty sketchy area of Vancouver. What are they spending all their money on?

[SnowKitten]

Highly disagree with the "religion" being true. It was "established" therefore It's a cult. Based and founded on many of the facts brought up already.

No, I mean, It just came up. Christianity has the belief of a savior, that's where our belief came from.
What's your take on Scientology?

We believe we have a savior. Scientology doesn't. It's a way of life, not so much as a belief in the afterlife.

Okay, as already said. There is no faith involved with scientology. Does that make better sense?

I hate to seem like a dick Holly, but the criteria of being a religion isn't-

~Having no definate beginning (Esablishment)
~Having a savior that died for sins
~Way of After/Life

The criteria are really indefinant...
take basic Paganism...
Paganism doesn't have a definant establishment, but some of it's sects do, such as Wicca. Wicca was established around the same time as Scientology. Does that mean it's not a "Real Religion" ? I'm fairly sure most religions don't have a savior that died for their sins...Actually, I'm pretty sure that's ONLY Christianity. Some Christians don't have a "Christian Way of Life"... some are just in it for the promise of heaven...

Have stable arguments on why it isn't a religion...

[Marionette.]

Scientology, has put a HUGE wedge in with my family.

My aunties, uncles, their wives, boy/girlfriends, kids, are all scientologists.
I'm sure I've mentioned all this in another thread before.

I can't really have a fair say about it without being biased, but I hate it for what it's doing to my family.
It is true it's totally draining their money etc.
My mum is totally against it and hates everything to do with it. Enter conflict.
There's just too much involvement, and I can definitely feel my mum getting too obsessed with the 'anti-sites' and all the 'how I escaped it' shit, trying desperately to open their eyes and get them away from it, which wont be happening any time soon.

Of course they've told me to go take some courses (which I haven't), I've been to saint hill many times, many events and gatherings.
I'm indifferent. I can see how it's helped them and I can see how it's ruining them.
But I'd much rather stay away.