Religion in Schools

[Nightblood.]

So even though church and school are suppose to be separate, public schools at least, I find that it really isn't. I mean, we say the pledge, and that I can deal with since it's one word. But then I have teachers that get pissed off enough to send you to the office for saying something like "goddamn" or "oh my god" or even "jesus christ" because they were offended.
Then there's the teachers that say they aren't pushing anything on anyone, but then go on to talk about religion. As if those words are magic. I've had tons of teachers in class try to think of examples for things and so often it starts with "everyone knows the story of [insert something from the bible here]" and they go on to use it as an example...and I get so lost seeing as I have never read the bible, nor am Christian. I'm agnostic, and I really can't stand when teachers use examples like that, the only time I really didn't mind too much was when we read stuff that actually had to do with a very religious time period and the work pertained to the religious stuff in a not so religious way.

Anyone else have an opinion on this?

[sushi_error]

I guess it depends. Personally, I think reciting the Pledge of Allegiance should be by choice, rather than force. If anything, the phrase "one nation under God" has much more of an affect than "oh my god" or "goddamnit". I think to most people 'goddamnit' is a bad and rude word to say.

Nevertheless, I believe all public schools need to teach students to be more tolerant and open-minded of all religions. Some of you may or may not agree with me, but it sometimes feels as if religion is considered 'taboo' in schools and therefore, no one even dares to talk about it. At the same time, I don't think it is right for ANY teacher to push his/her religious/non-religious beliefs on a student. It is a matter of building tolerance in public schools.

[Double X]

Maybe it's because you live in Florida and I live in Massachusetts, but I've never had this problem. The teacher would be criticized by the parents and definitely get warned.

Just go to your principal or counselor and talk about it.

[Heretic]

Freedom of speech guarantees that, even in schools, a student does not have to say the pledge of allegiance if he or she chooses not to. As for teacher interjecting religion into daily discussion and teaching, they probably don't even realize that there are students who don't believe in God or have never read the Bible.

[Grizabella]

I think it may be a bigger problem in the states, or southern states, than it is in Canada. From my experience in school, students and parent's freaked if they thouht the teacher was even slightly showing preference for one religion or the other.

As for the general question, I think school (public ones) should be kept completely separate from religion. Everyone should have the right to believe what they choose, and promoting one religion over the other is unacceptable. Objectively teaching religion in religion class is fine, but letting it intrude into other subjects should not be tolerated.

[Gidig]

Originally Posted by Arbiter

Freedom of speech guarantees that, even in schools, a student does not have to say the pledge of allegiance if he or she chooses not to. As for teacher interjecting religion into daily discussion and teaching, they probably don't even realize that there are students who don't believe in God or have never read the Bible.

We have always been told once you walk into a school you give up some of your rights, including some freedom of speech - in elementary school you had to have your parents sign something to say you didn't have to recite the Pledge of Allegiance.

[Grizabella]

As a non-American, what happens if you do not recite the pledge? Also, is it something recited every day in school?

[Hdjdjdjduvieg]

I think you're way too sensative. Just as you have the right to talk about how you're agnostic, everyone else has the right to talk about their beliefs. I will agree that it does not belong in the school system, but if they're just using it as an example, then what's the big deal? They're not teaching it. And the pledge thing... I'm getting so sick of hearing that. If it bother's people so much then don't say that one word. That doesn't mean people have to take the entire line out of the pledge, because that's just as bad as forcing people to say it... which you're not. You're not forced to say that line, so don't. Get over it. I am so sick of people treating agnosticism and atheism as even more of a cultish religion than the most radical of religions. I'm agnostic and I don't run around shoving my beliefs up everyone's throat and trying to debunk everyone elses religions, and get 'offended' by everythign to do with religion. Doing that is just as bad as getting offended by someone sayign 'Jesus Christ'.. seriously, get over it.

[Blackwing]

We never said the pledge in my High school don't know why.

[Kyle11]

This topic to me hits the ball home. The main reason being, I have to deal with this and see this every day.

I live in Texas. I am not from this state and I am what I consider a mixture of a lot of religions, but to me the school system should not corrupt and let a personal matter affect the way a subject is taught.

Every day I walk into school and right in front of me is a Bible Quote. I'm not sure what the passage is, but it is some excerpt ( I will write it down and post it after school tomorrow) that just drives me insane because it deals with "The people being gods children" or some BS.

Religion doesn't not BELONG in school. It belongs in a church of faith, in a private home, but NOT in a public school.

Now, I'm graduating in two weeks, and if there was one thing I would wish to change, that would be eliminating religion and influence from school. Or at least creating a balance. See it's okay for the teachers and principals to put up jesus motivational posters, and faith quotes and talk about getting saved, but I can't wear a t-shirt with a logo that says "Fuck the U.S. Bombs" or "Fuck Religion" because of a naughty word? Seriously to me, the words god, jesus, and church are as dirty if not dirtier considering the lives that they have taken.

[Oiseau the Little Bird!]

I personally don't mind. I wanted very badly to go to a nearby Catholic school because their sense of community was so strong, and their morals and values were instilled.

As for public school, as much of a fun time I had, I found that most of my friends who went to private institutions were much more available for partying, lol. If anything, I think religion in school would be good as far as instilling values and morals -- but unfortunately we can't live in that kind of world because America allows people to get their knickers in a bunch about saying the word God in a classroom. I didn't stand for the pledge all through high school for my reasons, but I didn't go shit on everyone else because I didn't believe what they did.

[ATP787]

Originally Posted by Gidig

We have always been told once you walk into a school you give up some of your rights, including some freedom of speech - in elementary school you had to have your parents sign something to say you didn't have to recite the Pledge of Allegiance.

Originally Posted by Grizabella

As a non-American, what happens if you do not recite the pledge? Also, is it something recited every day in school?

In the U.S., no school can force you to say the pledge. If a teacher tries, they need to be reminded of "West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette."

[Oiseau the Little Bird!]

Originally Posted by TopOfTheWorld

In the U.S., no school can force you to say the pledge. If a teacher tries, they need to be reminded of "West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette."

In my high school, it said in the handbook that I did not have to stand for the pledge. But I assure you, at least once or twice every year I was there I got a speech. Either respectful or straight up, "YOU ARE DISRESPECTING THE SOLDIERS IN IRAQ FIGHTING FOR YOUR FREEDOM IN AMERICA" it always happened. To my knowledge, no one can MAKE you stand for the pledge.

[Kyle11]

Originally Posted by TopOfTheWorld

In the U.S., no school can force you to say the pledge. If a teacher tries, they need to be reminded of "West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette."

ALTHOUGH. You can be suspended from school for not standing for the pledge. Legally a school cannot do this, but they somehow get away with it (As I was suspended for not standing). The only way to get around it is if a note is presented by a guardian stating that you are not permitted to stand. EVEN THOUGH in "West Virginia ed. v. Barnette says "a citizen can't be forced to confess their loyalty"

America is such a corrupt place. What happened to freedom?

[Oiseau the Little Bird!]

Originally Posted by Kyle11

America is such a corrupt place. What happened to freedom?

It was sacrificed in the name of safety. Ben Franklin, we miss you.

[Kyle11]

Originally Posted by Oiseau the Little Bird!

It was sacrificed in the name of safety. Ben Franklin, we miss you.

So true. But what BS. I honestly cannot see how the Patriot act is legal. It just goes to show that Big Brother is not only watching, but he is reserving all of your privacy to himself.

[ATP787]

Originally Posted by Kyle11

ALTHOUGH. You can be suspended from school for not standing for the pledge. Legally a school cannot do this, but they somehow get away with it (As I was suspended for not standing). The only way to get around it is if a note is presented by a guardian stating that you are not permitted to stand. EVEN THOUGH in "West Virginia ed. v. Barnette says "a citizen can't be forced to confess their loyalty"

America is such a corrupt place. What happened to freedom?

I'm not sure about standing. Legally, a school can't force you to salute or say the pledge.

They shouldn't require you to stand, but I'm unaware of a current law against it.

Our founding father's would be rolling in their graves.

[Oiseau the Little Bird!]

Winston, what is 2+2?

[Kyle11]

Originally Posted by TopOfTheWorld

I'm not sure about standing. Legally, a school can't force you to salute or say the pledge.

They shouldn't require you to stand, but I'm unaware of a current law against it.

Our founding father's would be rolling in their graves.

These kids were suspended just like I was. Doing nothing more than exercising freedoms.

http://www.startribune.com/nation/18800444.html

[MadPoet]

There's nothing wrong with a kid getting in trouble over saying godammit. That's not language someone should be using in school, regardless if it has the word god in it or not. At any school, someone saying the F word, or any other swear word, shouldn't be taken extremely lightly, because the kids and the language that they use is an example of the school and the students that attend there. Swear all you want, but doing it in school is ridiculous, whether you're using God's name in vain or not.

Other than that, I don't really agree, to be honest. I went to public school for awhile a few years ago, and it got to the point where the school decided they were not going to say the pledge of allegiance in classes because it "used the G word." I think that's beyond ridiculous. Then again, I suppose it depends on what school you go to, but I think it's completely the opposite. Are people really going to die if a teacher mentions a bible passage? I think not.

[SillyEvee]

Originally Posted by Oiseau the Little Bird!

Winston, what is 2+2?

It IS 5!
What does Julia think about this?

Anyway. I don't think religion should be a part of the curriculum, but in a school where many kids are religious and in a country where chunks of the Bible are common knowledge, I don't see anything wrong with using an example from the Bible. If it's used illustratively and not for religious education purposes.

O! Canada, which we sing every day in school until Grade 12 in Canada, mentions G-d.

G-d keep our land
Glorious and free.
O! Canada,
We stand on guard for thee.
O! Canada,
We stand on guard for thee.

I remember there was a Jehova's witness in my class one year who never stood for the anthem. It wasn't an issue. Religion didn't come up much in any of my classes, I guess. That's the way I liked it. If it came up, we talked about it in a respectful way. I don't think it's wrong to talk about it EVER, just to present one religion as absolute truth.
Likewise, I don't think it's a problem to tell kids not to say "Jesus Christ!" as an exclamation. I was raised by two atheist parents who taught me not to "take the Lord's name in vain" because it upsets other people. For us, it was akin to not shouting out that Santa isn't real (we never believed in him in my family) cause it upsets some people.

[Grizabella]

Originally Posted by SillyEvee

It IS 5!
What does Julia think about this?

Anyway. I don't think religion should be a part of the curriculum, but in a school where many kids are religious and in a country where chunks of the Bible are common knowledge, I don't see anything wrong with using an example from the Bible. If it's used illustratively and not for religious education purposes.

O! Canada, which we sing every day in school until Grade 12 in Canada, mentions G-d.

G-d keep our land
Glorious and free.
O! Canada,
We stand on guard for thee.
O! Canada,
We stand on guard for thee.

I remember there was a Jehova's witness in my class one year who never stood for the anthem. It wasn't an issue. Religion didn't come up much in any of my classes, I guess. That's the way I liked it. If it came up, we talked about it in a respectful way. I don't think it's wrong to talk about it EVER, just to present one religion as absolute truth.
Likewise, I don't think it's a problem to tell kids not to say "Jesus Christ!" as an exclamation. I was raised by two atheist parents who taught me not to "take the Lord's name in vain" because it upsets other people. For us, it was akin to not shouting out that Santa isn't real (we never believed in him in my family) cause it upsets some people.

In my high school, we never sung it - they played the anthem without the words. If we did sing it, they used the French lyrics, which have fewer refrences to God (it mentions a crucifix)Come to think of it, my school was ridiculously sensitive about religion.

[Pelios]

Originally Posted by Kyle11

These kids were suspended just like I was. Doing nothing more than exercising freedoms.

http://www.startribune.com/nation/18800444.html

So you got suspended for not standing up?

Out of respect for those around you and in respect of the flag you should stand and remain standing for the entirety of the pledge. If there is a line you don't agree with just don't say the pledge. Stand quietly with your hands at your side in respect. As long as you honor the flag and what it stands for and you believe in it then you shouldn't feel bad.

If the "under God" line bugs you, just refrain from saying that part. If I were you I would just view the pledge as declaration of your patriotism and remembrance for those who have died for this country and ignore the God part since it goes against your beliefs.

In my case, I am not American, but I do stand up for the pledge and the national anthem to follow the customs and show my respect. I do the same for other countries and I expect others to do the same in my country. One doesn't have to repeat a pledge or sign along but one should show a symbolic respect if you get what I mean.

[Adean]

Originally Posted by Gidig

We have always been told once you walk into a school you give up some of your rights, including some freedom of speech - in elementary school you had to have your parents sign something to say you didn't have to recite the Pledge of Allegiance.

The school can get you to sign whatever it asks you to. Enforcing it is a different question. If you don't question the punishment, then there won't ever be any issue.

Schools do a lot of questionable things. Seriously, it's a government institution so what do we expect?

[thebigmole]

Originally Posted by mexico

So you got suspended for not standing up?

Out of respect for those around you and in respect of the flag you should stand and remain standing for the entirety of the pledge. If there is a line you don't agree with just don't say the pledge. Stand quietly with your hands at your side in respect. As long as you honor the flag and what it stands for and you believe in it then you shouldn't feel bad.

If the "under God" line bugs you, just refrain from saying that part. If I were you I would just view the pledge as declaration of your patriotism and remembrance for those who have died for this country and ignore the God part since it goes against your beliefs.

In my case, I am not American, but I do stand up for the pledge and the national anthem to follow the customs and show my respect. I do the same for other countries and I expect others to do the same in my country. One doesn't have to repeat a pledge or sign along but one should show a symbolic respect if you get what I mean.

But see in my case I'm against the plege as a whole. I mean why should I pledge my alligence to a piece of fabric that is supposed to represent something that doesn't exist anymore if it ever did. Do I support our troups (not what they are doing exactly but it's not their fault they are there so I have nothing against them personally and hope that they all come home safe) so yes. Do I believe in the principles this country was built on, yes. Do I think that our country is anywhere near where it's supposed to be, no. I mean the pledge is a lie in my opinion and I shouldn't have to say it.

On topic I really don't care about the God line God is everywhere here, it's on the money I mean this country is mostly Christian the founding father were Christian we can't escape that. I do believe that religion needs to stay out of public schools and private schools that are not religiously based.

[Pelios]

Originally Posted by thebigmole

But see in my case I'm against the plege as a whole. I mean why should I pledge my alligence to a piece of fabric that is supposed to represent something that doesn't exist anymore if it ever did. Do I support our troups (not what they are doing exactly but it's not their fault they are there so I have nothing against them personally and hope that they all come home safe) so yes. Do I believe in the principles this country was built on, yes. Do I think that our country is anywhere near where it's supposed to be, no. I mean the pledge is a lie in my opinion and I shouldn't have to say it.

On topic I really don't care about the God line God is everywhere here, it's on the money I mean this country is mostly Christian the founding father were Christian we can't escape that. I do believe that religion needs to stay out of public schools and private schools that are religiously based.

Oh ok I get what you mean.
The USA is not what it used to be, now it seens like its getting worse everyday. With all the freedom America gives you, also comes with a price.
In Mexico for example. You might not get alot of freedom like in the USA but I think there is a balance. Here in the USA I have notice that people are too serious you tell them I little joke they don't like and bom you are in some kind of legal problem or something. Now everyone is suing everyone for the for dumb things.
I get you.

[InSovietRussiaORGASMGotU]

The teacher sending a kid to the principle for saying "jesus christ" I find to be hilarious due to the utter stupidity of it. Getting in trouble over saying shit, fuck, asshole, etc... I can understand. To me, if you get in trouble over saying "hell", then you should get in trouble over saying "heaven", after all, it's only fair. But that is not always the case. Why? People are over-sensitive, very biased and if they don't punish the student for saying words with religious figures in it, someone is bound to get angry about that and start up a big fuss. Punish the kid, set an example for others not to say the religious words. But, then teaching religious class makes it all a big joke: in this hour [or however long the class is], we can say hell all we want but outside of this magical hour, we cannot.

Some countries, such as Canada, does have a law about standing up during the anthem, or if you're crippled, you sit up straight or do your best to. I'm not sure about American laws on this though. So, a school in Canada presumably is going to obey Canadian federal laws and thus, you stand. Getting suspended over it should occur only if you refuse to stand repeatedly without a valid reason (i.e. broken legs) or you do something offensive during the time to stand. At my high school, singing wasn't required, however, standing was. During assembly, it was deemed nice to sing so some people sometimes sung.

I have no problem with religion being taught in schools. HOWEVER, they shouldn't focus on only a few beliefs. They should focus on as many as possible, giving each and equal amount of time in the course. Going back to getting in trouble over saying "jesus christ" when not in that magical hour of that magical room of that magical class is hilarious and bullshit. If you get in trouble over saying "jesus christ", then you should also get in trouble over saying "Vishnu", "Satan", etc... . Since that probably doesn't happen, then the teachers should cut their biased nonsense and live with it.

[wanderlust]

cant really comment...i got to a catholic school..(like 96% of irish schools...)

[udontno]

Originally Posted by Grizabella

As a non-American, what happens if you do not recite the pledge? Also, is it something recited every day in school?

I'm not forced to say it at my school, so I don't. As a child, I had to.

Originally Posted by Kyle11

This topic to me hits the ball home. The main reason being, I have to deal with this and see this every day.

I live in Texas. I am not from this state and I am what I consider a mixture of a lot of religions, but to me the school system should not corrupt and let a personal matter affect the way a subject is taught.

Every day I walk into school and right in front of me is a Bible Quote. I'm not sure what the passage is, but it is some excerpt ( I will write it down and post it after school tomorrow) that just drives me insane because it deals with "The people being gods children" or some BS.

Religion doesn't not BELONG in school. It belongs in a church of faith, in a private home, but NOT in a public school.

Now, I'm graduating in two weeks, and if there was one thing I would wish to change, that would be eliminating religion and influence from school. Or at least creating a balance. See it's okay for the teachers and principals to put up jesus motivational posters, and faith quotes and talk about getting saved, but I can't wear a t-shirt with a logo that says "Fuck the U.S. Bombs" or "Fuck Religion" because of a naughty word? Seriously to me, the words god, jesus, and church are as dirty if not dirtier considering the lives that they have taken.

I agree with you. I don't have Bible quotes in my school, but religion is often discussed. Most people around here are Protestant Christians. I'm... often times confused, to that makes things interesting.

[Khadra]

I don't see a problem with teachers using examples from the bible. Regardless of whether or not you believe in it, it is a quite significant book and you'll find references to it all over the place.

I think teaching religion is good but preaching it should never happen in public schools.

I can understand the principle of not reciting the Pledge of Allegience or singing O Canada, but for what it's really worth I'd say just do it. You aren't going to change anything by not doing it, and it's really not that big of a deal in my opinion. Nobody put the word god in there to offend atheists and agnostics. Or if you really have a problem with it maybe you could try to write a new pledge/song and get the government behind it.

[sushi_error]

Originally Posted by Khadra

I don't see a problem with teachers using examples from the bible. Regardless of whether or not you believe in it, it is a quite significant book and you'll find references to it all over the place.

I think teaching religion is good but preaching it should never happen in public schools.

I can understand the principle of not reciting the Pledge of Allegience or singing O Canada, but for what it's really worth I'd say just do it. You aren't going to change anything by not doing it, and it's really not that big of a deal in my opinion. Nobody put the word god in there to offend atheists and agnostics. Or if you really have a problem with it maybe you could try to write a new pledge/song and get the government behind it.

I think the problem behind the Pledge of Allegiance is that many people infer "god" from a Christian standpoint. I hope that makes sense.

[Nightblood.]

I in no way EVER push anything religious on anyone. 99% of my friends don't even have a clue what religion I am, and I can see a kid getting in a little trouble saying god damnit, because it is a swear BUT I think using the bible as an example is wrong. I'm not going against the pledge or anything at all, just stating what I think.
I've had teachers, when someone said something like jesus christ, say something like you should know better, using God's name in vain you need to go back to sunday school to a kid that they had no idea if they were even religious.
It's also not because of where I live, it was the same when I lived in Connecticut

Originally Posted by Concrete Girl

Are people really going to die if a teacher mentions a bible passage? I think not.

People won't die, but from the teachers I have they don't just mention it, it turns into some huge class discussion...even in MATH! For me, when that happens, it becomes awkward and often I feel incredibly stupid afterward because the teacher will call on me to say part of it or some other question expecting me to know what they are talking about and I have no idea seeing as I have never read the bible nor do I intend to

[Ellie]

If a religious example is being used to explain something, then I think another, non religious example should be given along side it. Even the most well known bible stories aren't known by everyone, and therefore those students who aren't aware of them shouldn't be singled out. Saying something like 'as you are all aware', in my opinion, would single students out which is wrong in any situation; religious or not.

Outside of R.E. [religious education] the only time God or religion was mention was during 'Singing Assembly' which we had in Infants and Junior School [up to age 11]. Even then if we didn't want to go, we just had to have a permission slip from our parents/guardians and we were excused from it.

I don't think there is anything wrong in teaching religion in schools, and if anything I would encourage it, but bringing religion or at least one particular religion into everyday teaching is wrong.

[vee_vee]

Originally Posted by ElfPunk

So even though church and school are suppose to be separate, public schools at least, I find that it really isn't. I mean, we say the pledge, and that I can deal with since it's one word. But then I have teachers that get pissed off enough to send you to the office for saying something like "goddamn" or "oh my god" or even "jesus christ" because they were offended.
Then there's the teachers that say they aren't pushing anything on anyone, but then go on to talk about religion. As if those words are magic. I've had tons of teachers in class try to think of examples for things and so often it starts with "everyone knows the story of [insert something from the bible here]" and they go on to use it as an example...and I get so lost seeing as I have never read the bible, nor am Christian. I'm agnostic, and I really can't stand when teachers use examples like that, the only time I really didn't mind too much was when we read stuff that actually had to do with a very religious time period and the work pertained to the religious stuff in a not so religious way.

Anyone else have an opinion on this?

although it is true that teachers shouldn't assume that you know all these stories and what not, i do think you are a little to sensitive. you're offended that teachers assume that you know stories from the bible, don't you think they are equally allowed to be offended by you taking the name of the one they call Lord in vain as well?
I'm just saying you take it personal being a student, but just because they are teachers doesn't mean they aren't allowed to take things on a personal level as well. They don't have to be completely professional about everything, they're allowed to have feelings just as you are.

[Nightblood.]

I'm not saying they shouldn't get offended, what I'm saying is that they shouldn't send you to the office/dean and get you IN TROUBLE for saying something that has become part of today's slang. And it's not like they use examples from other religions as well, just Christianity. And I don't think I'm being "too sensitive" and you make it sound like I don't think teachers have feelings, or are real people which quite the opposite is true.
Besides, I asked for people's opinions, not their opinion on MY opinion, but many of the posts are attacking me saying how I'm too sensitive. All I want is to hear other people's opinions, so please if anyone else would like to comment I still want other people's opinions but not the ones that are just opinions on mine.

[MadPoet]

Originally Posted by ElfPunk

I'm not saying they shouldn't get offended, what I'm saying is that they shouldn't send you to the office/dean and get you IN TROUBLE for saying something that has become part of today's slang.

Yet if a kid was punished for saying "fuck" or "damn" or "shit" or anything like that, no one would have any issues with it. Could it possibly be that the kid got in trouble for generally swearing, not because he used God's name in vain? We don't know the exact reasoning behind the teachers or principals actions, so therefore we can't assume that the kid had gotten in trouble because he used God's name in vain. I respect your opinion, and am not going to call you overly sensitive, but as far as I'm concerned, getting worked up over something as simple as a kid getting in trouble for saying "god dammit" (especially when in fact it could have been merely because he was using rude language, regardless of the fact that it involved God's name) is just as bad as punishing someone for using God's name in vain in a public school. The people who have a problem with saying the pledge of allegiance in schools are just as wrong as those who emphasize that the pledge of allegiance professes thanks to God to a group of possible atheists. There's basically two sides to the disagreement, and neither side is more correct or right than the other side. I find it ridiculous that some people insist on pulling out the "I'm an atheist, you offend me by talking to me about God" card. I'm not saying that all atheists/agnostics/whatever else do this, but not all Christians are out to get those who do not believe in God, and it's tiring to constantly hear about the "poor atheists and agnostics" (no offense whatsoever to atheists or agnostics). Not everyone is out to make atheists feel like shit because of what they believe.

And that's my opinion, not my opinion on your opinion

[Nightblood.]

Goddamnit was a horrible example, I'm talking more when someone says "oh my god"
And I'm also talking about the extremes, not just a slight mention of those things.
Like, one classroom, for intensive reading, was filled with posters with quotes from the bible, all of which were an assignment for the kids, I was in a drivers ed class in that room so i wasnt in the class so i dont know teh full story, but i still think even that is pushing it