Abortion?

[dani99]

Does it matter if it' not able to live outside the womb? A child that is 30 weeks along isn't guaranteed to be able to live outside of the womb. Does that not make it a baby? Does that not make it a living thing?

[Coffee.]

Should we illegalize meat eating? It takes away animals' right to live. What about the death penalty?

[thebigmole]

A fetus that is 30 weeks old is developed enough to live outside the womb. If something out of the ordinary happens then well that's out of the ordinary. There is no way that a baby at 12 weeks can survive outside the womb. They are two different things.

[chickenonsteroids]

Making abortion illegal is the most ridiculous thing I hear in these debates. It's beyond stupid.

Did making alcohol illegal work? Why won't people go to back street abortions putting their own life in danger in the process? Why not just give the woman the choice?

It's stupid.

[Coffee.]

Stop abortion: Give better sex education (give me a job ) and better condom and birth control access.

[thebigmole]

Originally Posted by chickenonsteroids

Making abortion illegal is the most ridiculous thing I hear in these debates. It's beyond stupid.

Did making alcohol illegal work? Why won't people go to back street abortions putting their own life in danger in the process? Why not just give the woman the choice?

It's stupid.

And that's the major point. Abortion will NEVER truly be gone, even when it was illegal women were still getting abortions, if they weren't lucky enough to find a doctor they were taking coat hangers to themselves and preventing them from EVER having children. Abortion is a necessary evil.

[dani99]

I'm not saying that they should make it illegal - I'm just saying I don't believe it's humane and right. I think it's cruel and a terrible thing to do. This world and it's leaders are messed up anyways, and it's things like abortion that help it look even more terrible. Just because you can doesn't mean you should. Just because you can doesn't make it right. Killing is never right, even if it is of a glob of cells.

I know that even if abortion was illegal that wouldn't fully solve the problem anyways. With laws you're going to have law breakers, like it or not. But what makes me mad is seeing women going out with no protection having sex all of the time and then end up having an abortion like it's no big deal.

Example, I know a lady who has had 4 abortions in the last several years. Does it make it right because it's her choice? No, because of her irresponsibility her children never got to actually live.

[thebigmole]

Originally Posted by dani99

I'm not saying that they should make it illegal - I'm just saying I don't believe it's humane and right. I think it's cruel and a terrible thing to do. This world and it's leaders are messed up anyways, and it's things like abortion that help it look even more terrible. Just because you can doesn't mean you should. Just because you can doesn't make it right. Killing is never right, even if it is of a glob of cells.

Oh so you are pro-choice.

[Henry Tyrell]

Originally Posted by dani99

This world and it's leaders are messed up anyways, and it's things like abortion that help it look even more terrible...Killing is never right, even if it is of a glob of cells.

You know which group of women want and get the most abortions (legal or not)? Impoverished ones, usually ones with a child or two already.

This world is filled with too many children who are too poor and too hungry and too uneducated. If Abortion=murder then more children= more hungry kids, more poverty, more crime, etc etc.

I, for one, care more for the children who are alive more than I count the "children" that can't survive outside of the womb.

[dani99]

No, I'm not pro-choice. I know it won't become illegal so I'm not going to going around saying it should be illegal. I still personally think it's messed up. I still think it's wrong. If I could make it illegal, I would. But I can't, and I can't make them make it illegal.

Also, not every child ends up in poverty. Not every child starves. You say it like every child will end up like that.

[Coffee.]

Many children are in poverty and starving. We're in minority, and we've very priviledged. 22,000 children die every day because of poverty.

[dani99]

Many, but not every. Not every single last child will end up in poverty. Although I am aware not every child is placed into adoption homes, there are some that can. I know some people who can't have kids and would die to adopt (like my aunt) a child.

[George^^]

I'm unsure because well, I think that everyone, even a fetus, should have the right to live and that adoption is always a good option, because I know someone who couldn't give birth herself and they adopted a little boy, and she loves him so much.

But at the same time it's the woman's body, it's her choices on what goes on, but at the same time it's not that hard to get a condom or use birth control or the morning after pill.

[Disappearing]

I'm completely pro-life, in every situation.

I just think babies deserve life.

[Laurasaurus]

Pro-Choice. Brittany summed it up pretty well for me.

[JustACityBoy]

I am pro-choice. If you are going to be bringing in another person in the world, don't have a bundle of differentiated cells drag down your life. Not to mention your child will have poor living conditions as well.
Because neurons and brain are developed late, your "fetus/embryo" will have absolutely NO feeling, not a liquid gooey feeling, absolutely NOTHING. It's like killing sperm. It has potential to be human life, but you are technically causing no harm emotionally to the child.
I'm going to add this last, this probably shouldn't be a factor in consideration. Overpopulation.

[Koharuchan]

Originally Posted by dani99

No, I'm not pro-choice. I know it won't become illegal so I'm not going to going around saying it should be illegal. I still personally think it's messed up. I still think it's wrong. If I could make it illegal, I would. But I can't, and I can't make them make it illegal.

Also, not every child ends up in poverty. Not every child starves. You say it like every child will end up like that.

First, I say I'm pro-choice.

Second, you just completely contradicted yourself. In the post you made before this, you said you don't think it should be made illegal. Now, you say you would make it illegal if you could. Make up your mind.

Finally, third. I am strongly against pro-life. No, I do not like abortions. I would never get one unless I absolutely had no other choice, and even then I would cry my eyes out because I would be losing my child. I would be so scarred. I do not like abortion at all. However, I'm not going to say crazy things like it should be illegal; it can't be made illegal. People will be taking coat hangers and trying to perform home abortions and they'll seriously injure or even kill themselves. All because a bunch of pro-life people don't want a fetus that isn't even potentially a living thing yet to die. I honestly don't know whether or not I believe life begins at conception. All I know is, if I was pregnant, from the moment I found out I would love that little fetus inside me. And I would never get rid of it unless I had no choice.

Think about, put yourself in someone else's shoes for a minute. If you were pregnant, and being pregnant was endangering your life, if you were going to die if you carried that baby to term, would you abort it, or wouldn't you?

[Philomath]

I am pro-choice.
Even though I do value life and would never myself have an abortion, I do respect that other people have their own opinions, views and beliefs and will do what they want no matter what I think or say.

[dani99]

I said unless it was a life threatening situation, I strongly believe against it. But, if it was just because you couldn't take responsibility - then I think it's wrong. Also, Carl, have you ever seen "The Silent scream"? It's of a fetus at 12 weeks being aborted and it struggles and moves around violently to try to escape the tools being used, and the fetus' heartbeat gradually speeds up. It can feel fear.

[Koharuchan]

Originally Posted by dani99

I said unless it was a life threatening situation, I strongly believe against it. But, if it was just because you couldn't take responsibility - then I think it's wrong. Also, Carl, have you ever seen "The Silent scream"? It's of a fetus at 12 weeks being aborted and it struggles and moves around violently to try to escape the tools being used, and the fetus' heartbeat gradually speeds up. It can feel fear.

That is pro-choice. You don't like abortion, but under certain circumstances it's okay. You're saying right now that there are exceptions, and a pro-life person wouldn't agree with that.

[Henry Tyrell]

Originally Posted by dani99

Also, Carl, have you ever seen "The Silent scream"? It's of a fetus at 12 weeks being aborted and it struggles and moves around violently to try to escape the tools being used, and the fetus' heartbeat gradually speeds up. It can feel fear.

Maybe you should research the piece of old pro-life propaganda you use before you actually use it...

Richard Berkowitz, professor of obstetrics and gynecology at Mount Sinai Medical Center, described the Silent Scream as "factually misleading and unfair". John Hobbins of the Yale School of Medicine called the film's use of special effects deceptive, a form of "technical flimflam." He pointed out that the film of the ultrasound is initially run at slow speed, but that it is sped up when surgical instruments are introduced to give the impression that "the fetus is thrashing about in alarm."

Fetal development experts argued that, contrary to Nathanson's assertion in the film, a fetus cannot perceive danger or make purposeful movements. David Bodian, a neurobiologist at Johns Hopkins School of Medicine, stated that doctors had no evidence that a twelve-week-old fetus could feel pain, but noted the possibility of a reflex movement by a fetus in response to external stimuli such as surgical instruments. The size of the ultrasound image and of the fetus model used was also misleading, appearing to show a fetus the size of a full-term baby, while in actuality a twelve-week-old fetus is under two inches long

[dani99]

No, I'm pro-life. I only have that one little exception because there is no point in a woman having a baby if she'll die in the end.

Now, although the video may have been wrong - I'm sure the fetus could sense SOME kind of disturbance. It might have have been a fetus further a long, but nonetheless, I still stand my ground when I say abortion is wrong. I don't care if you don't want a baby or if you were raped. A child should have every right to live.

The only reason why I don't think it should be illegal is the fact that people would do the back ally coat hanger deal and that is the ONLY reason why it shouldn't be illegal. But if we were just talking about the procedure alone with no coat hangers - yes, it's a sick thing that shouldn't be done. It shouldn't be legal.

[Henry Tyrell]

Originally Posted by dani99

No, I'm pro-life. I only have that one little exception because there is no point in a woman having a baby if she'll die in the end.

Now, although the video may have been wrong - I'm sure the fetus could sense SOME kind of disturbance. It might have have been a fetus further a long, but nonetheless, I still stand my ground when I say abortion is wrong. I don't care if you don't want a baby or if you were raped. A child should have every right to live.

Wait, wait, you don't care about whether the woman was raped or has an unwanted pregnancy? "Have the baby anyway, you callous harlot?"

What happened to the right to body autonomy?

[dani99]

I mean, I would care if she was raped and that's terrible. But, the fetus shouldn't have to die because of it. It didn't do anything wrong. The mother should give it a chance at life instead of just throwing it out like it's a piece of trash just because the father is a piece of trash.

I don't know. If I were raped and got pregnant, abortion wouldn't half way cross my mind. Adoption probably wouldn't even cross my mind. I think life is precious, and potential life deserves the right to have that chance to live. I wouldn't call the woman a callous harlot, because that's a rather bold and untrue term to use. But, I would think that the mother should give her child a chance at living.

[Henry Tyrell]

Originally Posted by dani99

I mean, I would care if she was raped and that's terrible. But, the fetus shouldn't have to die because of it. It didn't do anything wrong. The mother should give it a chance at life instead of just throwing it out like it's a piece of trash just because the father is a piece of trash.

I don't know. If I were raped, abortion wouldn't half way cross my mind. Adoption probably wouldn't even cross my mind. I think life is precious, and potential life deserves the right to have that chance to live. I wouldn't call the woman a callous harlot, because that's a rather bold and untrue term to use. But, I would think that the mother should give her child a chance at living.

I used those words to avoid using the b-word.

However, my point was that you stated that you don't care what the woman's circumstances are nor her feelings toward her pregnancy- in your mind, she should/must/is required to carry out the pregnancy and all it comes with: eating the correct diet, doctor's visits, and of course hospital bills for the actual birth.

Even if she doesn't want to. Because of course, if she did dangerous things to the baby while pregnant (excessive drinking for example) she'd be just as guilty for killing her "baby" as she would have been had she aborted it, right? Or does that not count?

[Coffee.]

If you have not been sexually assaulted, I think you are irresponsible to make the decision for women who have been. That is not yours or the government's decision to make.

[dani99]

If she did all of that knowing she was pregnant, technically she would be the one to blame for any damage done to the fetus/baby. If she had no idea she was pregnant, then she just didn't know and she can't be blamed.

And I still stand where I believe she should give her child a chance at life. I don't see who would have the guts to actually go through with it. I'd rather die than abort my baby. I can't see how every woman doesn't feel the same. A mother's love for a child should be enough to not want an abortion.

Not to mention abortions can be risky and it is said that there is a higher risk of breast cancer in women who get abortions. Notice how I said "it is said", because I don't fully know how the two are linked, but I'm going on based on what I've heard and read on abortions.

I have been sexually assaulted, thank you. I wasn't pregnant by it, but if I had been I most definitely would have not aborted my child.

[Stargazed.]

Originally Posted by dani99

I mean, I would care if she was raped and that's terrible. But, the fetus shouldn't have to die because of it. It didn't do anything wrong. The mother should give it a chance at life instead of just throwing it out like it's a piece of trash just because the father is a piece of trash.

I don't know. If I were raped, abortion wouldn't half way cross my mind. Adoption probably wouldn't even cross my mind. I think life is precious, and potential life deserves the right to have that chance to live. I wouldn't call the woman a callous harlot, because that's a rather bold and untrue term to use. But, I would think that the mother should give her child a chance at living.

I have to say that I take complete and utter offensive to this. I was sexually abused and I ended up getting pregnant and I did think about abortion. If I were to give birth to a baby who was from a rapist, I know that I wouldn't be able to cope. I wouldn't be able to give that baby a normal life because I would think about what happened to me every single day. Not only that, but it would just not be a good situation to be in. So please, think before you talk. You can hurt a lot of people like that and I hope you realize that now.

[OMFG!You'reActuallySmart!]

Originally Posted by dani99

Well, I don't have a good life right now. Does that mean it would have been better if I were aborted? No, I'm glad I wasn't. No, I don't kill animals. I'm against killing animals. I can't even step on a bug! Life is precious no matter what.

Do you find nothing wrong with killing and eating plants? After all, you did say all life is precious no matter what. If you don't eat plants, then what do you eat?

Originally Posted by dani99

I don't care if you don't want a baby or if you were raped. A child should have every right to live.

You're changing your opinions on the fly because earlier you made it clear that you are more supportive of the woman if she was raped. Additionally, you stated abortion is wrong only if it is life threatening.

Originally Posted by dani99

Now, although the video may have been wrong - I'm sure the fetus could sense SOME kind of disturbance.

In a research paper published in 2008, Dr. Stuart W.G. Derbyshire examined this very issue. From his paper, "[w]e may be confident the fetus does not experience pain because unique in utero neuroinhibitors and a lack of psychological development maintain unconsciousness and prevent conscious pain experience ... More importantly the developmental processes necessary for experience [of pain] are not yet developed in the fetus at any gestation before birth ... Any future legislation to mitigate fetal pain could expose women to inappropriate intervention, risk and distress".

[Coffee.]

There's a higher risk of dying from pregnancy than abortion, and the breast cancer thing has never been proven. And you've never been raped. You do not know the trauma these people have to go for, so do not pretend to understand this. I do not understand what it's like to be a mom, so I would never try. But you have also not had your control taken from you in this manner. These women are not at blame for what has happened to them, they had no control of what happened to their body, they have the right to not have to watch their bellies grow with the hatred put inside of them.

[Guile]

I'm pro abortion, we have enough people in the world already. I'd suggest implementing a mandatory limit on the number of children one person can have, or "cutting the tubes" on men and women unfit to be parents or reproduce, to increase the overall genetic stock of the human population.

[OMFG!You'reActuallySmart!]

Originally Posted by Guile

I'm pro abortion, we have enough people in the world already. I'd suggest implementing a mandatory limit on the number of children one person can have, or "cutting the tubes" on men and women unfit to be parents or reproduce, to increase the overall genetic stock of the human population.

What is your criteria for individuals unfit to be parents?

[dani99]

Did you not just read above that I was sexually assaulted? I do know what it's like, and I do know the trauma. And I wasn't trying to be of any offense. I was just simply stating that I know if I were to have gotten pregnant after being raped, I wouldn't have been able to get an abortion. I'm not saying that people who get abortions are terrible people, I just don't think it's a right choice. I don't believe abortion is a way to go. I don't think it's right and I know I wouldn't do it. But, Brittany, I'm sorry if what I said offended you. I wasn't going after you or any person in general. I was simply stating that I wouldn't be able to get an abortion. I would't let it even cross my mind.

[Henry Tyrell]

Originally Posted by dani99

Not to mention abortions can be risky and it is said that there is a higher risk of breast cancer in women who get abortions. Notice how I said "it is said", because I don't fully know how the two are linked, but I'm going on based on what I've heard and read on abortions..

Well,

The pregnancy-associated mortality rate among women who delivered live neonates was 8.8 deaths per 100,000 live births. The mortality rate related to induced abortion was 0.6 deaths per 100,000 abortions.

-- Raymond EG, Grimes DA.

In case you don't understand, that means having a legal abortion (as opposed to back alley ones) is WAY safer than having a child.

As to whether abortion increases the chance of getting breast cancer,

The abortion–breast cancer hypothesis has been the subject of extensive scientific inquiry, and the scientific community has concluded that abortion does not cause breast cancer. This consensus is supported by major medical bodies,including the World Health Organization, the U.S. National Cancer Institute, the American Cancer Society, the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists, and the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists.

In other words, at this point the consensus among the scientific community (you know, the RESEARCHERS) is that abortion does not cause breast cancer.

[shimmeringfaerie]

Originally Posted by dani99

If she did all of that knowing she was pregnant, technically she would be the one to blame for any damage done to the fetus/baby. If she had no idea she was pregnant, then she just didn't know and she can't be blamed.

And I still stand where I believe she should give her child a chance at life. I don't see who would have the guts to actually go through with it. I'd rather die than abort my baby. I can't see how every woman doesn't feel the same. A mother's love for a child should be enough to not want an abortion.

Not to mention abortions can be risky and it is said that there is a higher risk of breast cancer in women who get abortions. Notice how I said "it is said", because I don't fully know how the two are linked, but I'm going on based on what I've heard and read on abortions.

I have been sexually assaulted, thank you. I wasn't pregnant by it, but if I had been I most definitely would have not aborted my child.

Danielle, have you ever been pregnant? Or more importantly, have you ever had an unwanted pregnancy? Because unless you have, I do not see how you can 100% know how you would feel. Who are you to say that a mother's love should be enough when you have never been in that situation? There are plenty of young women on this site alone who have gone through with abortions after being raped, being left by their boyfriends, for fear of being disowned by their families, and a million other reasons. How can you say that you won't bash people for their opinions and then make such ignorant, guilt-tripping statements?

You do not know how you would feel if you were pregnant. I hate to break it to you, but many women do not feel an automatic connection to their child. If you were pregnant, you may not automatically love your child.

I also have to ask: are you vegan? You keep going on about how life is precious, but are you just talking about human life?

And also, what is your opinion on miscarriages? Do you think we should start blaming women for killing their children if they miscarry? Where do we draw the line? There are heaps of contradicting guidelines for what you can/can't do while pregnant. If a woman eats something that may be bad for pregnancies, do you think that make her an immoral person?

[Zyzz]

To say your pro-life means you believe all life is worth saving. with that fact if you support the death penalty then you are no longer pro-life. but we are all really pro-choice and pro life. its for or against abortion your group is about. But I will agree with Guile on this. that is all.

[dani99]

I've had one for sure, and I think I might have been pregnant before then but I never got to really find out. I know what a mother's love is, because I've felt it. I know what it's like to have an unwanted pregnancy. When I first found out I was pregnant, I didn't know how I was going to raise a baby at 16 - but I was going to do it anyways. Sadly, I lost my baby so I'm not going to end up raising him or her either way, thank you.

Miscarriages are not a women's fault unless they do things like drink or ride roller coasters KNOWING they are pregnant. But, if it's a natural think a body does, like how my body miscarried my baby, then it's nothing you can help. You CAN help getting an abortion. You can stop yourself from having one, where you can't stop yourself from having a miscarriage all of the time.

[Henry Tyrell]

Danielle, I'd appreciate a response to the evidence I gave regarding the danger of abortion and breast cancer. Thanks!

[dani99]

Sorry, I didn't read that. There are a lot of posts popping up at once for me to respond to. And, to answer that, that's why I said "it is said". I mentioned that already, because I thought it was worth bringing up.

[Stargazed.]

Originally Posted by dani99

But, Brittany, I'm sorry if what I said offended you. I wasn't going after you or any person in general. I was simply stating that I wouldn't be able to get an abortion. I would't let it even cross my mind.

Okay, again. I understand where you are coming from. However, I do not believe that rape victims should be forced to give birth to a child just because the child "deserves life". It can bring a lot of emotional problems Life IS precious; but only if it stays precious. If a child grows up in an abusive home because the parent is so traumatized by the rape, then how is that life precious? Obviously, this is just one example. There are plenty of more scenarios that I could add; but I'd prefer not to. I'm going to end this with: Just because you don't believe in abortion in rape cases, doesn't mean you should tell us to all to do the same thing. It's offensive and you should think before you attack things like that.