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-   -   Triggering: Trayvon Martin-George Zimmerman (http://www.teenhelp.org/forums/f38-current-events-debates/t97873-trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman/)

TigerTank77 March 27th 2012 10:29 PM
Re: Trayvon Martin
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by thebigmole (Post 842103)
Ben I see what you are saying but here's they way I see. Both Zimmerman and Trayvon ultimately reacted out of fear. Trayvon out of fear of being followed, and Zimmerman out of fear of being beaten worse. However if Zimmerman had NEVER followed Trayvon to begin with Trayvon would not have had a reason to be scared and the fight and shooting never would have happened. The thing is Zimmerman wasn't in the wrong to call Trayvon in, he matched the description of someone who had been burgling the neighborhood recently. But getting out of his car to follow Trayvon is where he crossed the line. And honestly it was stupid, and there's no possible reason for him doing it, and those actions lead to Trayvon's death. So while Zimmerman is probably not guilty of murder, his actions still lead to this boy's death. He does hold responsibility.
Exactly. The deciding factor is going to be whether or not Zimmerman followed Trayvon on foot, or if he was actually walking back to his car when Trayvon confronted him.

Either way, the blood crazed media and public aren't going to get what they want. Expect rioting on par with the LA Riots.

Maloo March 27th 2012 11:15 PM
Re: Trayvon Martin
 
Zimmerman admitted to following him. It's recorded on his call to the police.

J-man March 27th 2012 11:42 PM
Re: Trayvon Martin
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr.Bobby (Post 840810)
Sounds like you're justifying murder here, Caliber...even if Trayvon responded to an unprovoked confrontation by a stranger by becoming defensive (or even belligerent), that doesn't qualify as menacing..surely not worthy of deadly force, yes? So what exactly are you defending here?

Sometimes, it is very simple, with or without 'Cuckold'.
Killing someone isn't necessarily murder.

Grey Wind March 28th 2012 12:50 AM
Re: Trayvon Martin
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maverick. (Post 841769)
I can't believe you guys actually think Travyon instigated this whole ordeal. I have no comment towards that. Just because it's a young black boy, he's automatically labeled to be "Thug Material"? Jesus.
No, he's thug material because he wears gold grills, is tatted up and has a thug attitude. Modern "black culture" is almost synonymous with "thug culture" these days anyways.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marguerite (Post 841873)
Not being from the US I know little about this, but the anti-PC brigade really piss me off on issues like this. Majority have an opinion on something? Quick, take the opposite one! Don't worry about what it is or if it has no basis of fact. Just make sure you can talk about how hard it is to be white! Because we all know how hard it is to be the majority.

Black teenager shot? Clearly white people are the victims.
Another example of feminazis, PC morons and minorities trying to keep the white man down!!!!!111!!!1!
Being the minority doesn't mean Jesse Jackson and the rest of the media gets to claim this is a war on blacks, call Trayvon a "martyr" and not get called out on their bullshit. Being the minority doesn't mean any violence against you is automatically due to the color of your skin. Being in the majority doesn't mean you're automatically guilty of a hate crime because "your life is better due your skin color". It's when innocent people are condemned due to this is what I have a problem with, whether in this case, Tawana Brawley, or any other falsely alleged racial crime.

I'm sorry black people, but you have nothing to fear from whitey... or even hispanic-whitey. You are not "under attack" by whitey. As much as some of you desperately wish you were innocent, helpless victims of whitey's racist campaign of tyrannical, violent oppression against you... you're just not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr.Bobby (Post 842016)
Caliber, you know, I don't have a dog in this fight. It is curious to me how people take a relatively ambiguous situation and come to such strong conclusions, in the absence of clear data. That says much more about us, and it's an opportunity to learn something about yourself. Why are you more able to understand the perspective and actions of Zimmerman, who by all accounts instigated the confrontation, instead of the victim?
Absence of clear data? - Zimmerman's wounds are in the police report I posted earlier. His fucking arrest is in there - The entire BASIS for this "Trayvon movement" is based off the fallacy that Zimmerman was let go at the scene. Whoever started the fight isn't my conclusion, it's Zimmerman's account, which I happen to believe (parts of). "By all accounts Zimmerman instigated it". Who's accounts?

If it is in fact true that Trayvon attacked Zimmerman from behind, will you still be blaming Zimmerman's "unnecessary racially profiled approach" for the cause of the shooting, or Trayvon's temper? If it's the former I might as well just give up now.

And even I think he's guilty of a crime, and I'm arguing this? Jesus.

TigerTank77 March 28th 2012 12:59 AM
Re: Trayvon Martin
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maloo (Post 842144)
Zimmerman admitted to following him. It's recorded on his call to the police.
Guess what? He was within his legal rights to do this. As is anyone else.

Blackwing March 28th 2012 01:11 AM
Re: Trayvon Martin
 
The media makes this kid look like a saint..

Dr.Bobby March 28th 2012 01:41 AM
Re: Trayvon Martin
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Caliber (Post 842193)
No, he's thug material because he wears gold grills, is tatted up and has a thug attitude. Modern "black culture" is almost synonymous with "thug culture" these days anyways.




You're expressing racist and prejudical views here! Those things interfere with ones ability to objectively assess the facts. It's not illegal to wear a hoodie, etc., and it is most certainly NOT "Probable cause to believe someone is involved in illegal activity, nor does it then allow someone to stop and confront. Laws, not emotion.





Being the minority doesn't mean Jesse Jackson and the rest of the media gets to claim this is a war on blacks, call Trayvon a "martyr" and not get called out on their bullshit. Being the minority doesn't mean any violence against you is automatically due to the color of your skin. Being in the majority doesn't mean you're automatically guilty of a hate crime because "your life is better due your skin color". It's when innocent people are condemned due to this is what I have a problem with, whether in this case, Tawana Brawley, or any other falsely alleged racial crime.



Sadly, though, in the absence of any legal probable cause to suspect him of illegal activity, we can only assume the confrontation was based on his being black. The tactics in response to this by Sharpton, et. al., don't change these facts.




I'm sorry black people, but you have nothing to fear from whitey... or even hispanic-whitey. You are not "under attack" by whitey. As much as some of you desperately wish you were innocent, helpless victims of whitey's racist campaign of tyrannical, violent oppression against you... you're just not.Absence of clear data? - Zimmerman's wounds are in the police report I posted earlier. His fucking arrest is in there - The entire BASIS for this "Trayvon movement" is based off the fallacy that Zimmerman was let go at the scene. Whoever started the fight isn't my conclusion, it's Zimmerman's account, which I happen to believe (parts of). "By all accounts Zimmerman instigated it". Who's accounts?




What are YOU so angry about? Historically, black people have been subjected to insults and humiliations large and small based on their skin color. generations of frustration at the system's inability..and often complicity...in providing equal protection under the law often results in emotionality at yet another injustice. You're right that all whites are not racist, but it would be good to acknowledge the historical perspective that results from oppression, especially in the south.





If it is in fact true that Trayvon attacked Zimmerman from behind, will you still be blaming Zimmerman's "unnecessary racially profiled approach" for the cause of the shooting, or Trayvon's temper? If it's the former I might as well just give up now.





The facts, which are NOT in dispute, is that a young black man was walking down the street after visiting a relative and was stalked by a large latino in an SUV, who stopped his truck, got out with his gun clearly visible (he was wearing a holster) and approached the young black man without any authority to do so...and in all probability in a confrontational manner. Those actions are clearly menacing, and the 'Stand your ground' law could have easily been used by the young black man to defend himself against a stranger who was clearly threatening him with a gun, no authority, and no probable cause to suspect any wrong doing on his part. Picking a fight with a stranger and then losing doesn't allow you to shoot someone dead on the grounds of self defense.







And even I think he's guilty of a crime, and I'm arguing this? Jesus.




(I've done this wrong, I apologize for the confusion!)

Dr.Bobby March 28th 2012 01:46 AM
Re: Trayvon Martin
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TigerTank77 (Post 842199)
Guess what? He was within his legal rights to do this. As is anyone else.
No, Ben..he's not. It is not legal to stalk someone and then approach them in a way that is menacing or threatening...Remember the purpose of the encounter: To confront someone (with a visible, holstered gun) and question them in the absence of any authority to do so, an without any probable cause.

Grey Wind March 28th 2012 03:13 AM
Re: Trayvon Martin
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr.Bobby (Post 842221)
You're expressing racist and prejudical views here! Those things interfere with ones ability to objectively assess the facts. It's not illegal to wear a hoodie, etc., and it is most certainly NOT Probable cause to believe someone is involved in illegal activity, nor does it then allow someone to stop and confront. Laws, not emotion.
Prejudicial, not racist. I like how Zimmerman's character of being a "fake cop" is constantly brought up to explain his mindset, yet mentioning Trayvons criminal demeanor/ background is "racist".
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr.Bobby (Post 842221)
Sadly, though, in the absence of any legal probable cause to suspect him of illegal activity, we can only assume the confrontation was based on his being black. The tactics in response to this by Sharpton, et. al., don't change these facts.
And their tactics are despicable.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr.Bobby (Post 842221)
The facts, which are NOT in dispute, is that a young black man was walking down the street after visiting a relative and was stalked by a large latino in an SUV, who stopped his truck, got out with his gun clearly visible (he was wearing a holster) and approached the young black man without any authority to do so...and in all probability in a confrontational manner. Those actions are clearly menacing, and the 'Stand your ground' law could have easily been used by the young black man to defend himself against a stranger who was clearly threatening him with a gun, no authority, and no probable cause to suspect any wrong doing on his part. Picking a fight with a stranger and then losing doesn't allow you to shoot someone dead on the grounds of self defense.
Two things. For Trayvon, the person you are defending yourself from must have shown both the ABILITY to commit such an act (ie: armed or not, physical advantages, multiple assailants against a single defending person, etc) and INTENT (ie: "I'm gonna kill you", guy pulls out a knife, draws a gun, etc) to do so. If Zimmerman drew his firearm first, then I agree, he instigated a fight and Trayvon acted in self defense. But I haven't heard that anywhere, where did you? Also, Inside the Waistband Holsters conceal a gun from view while still having it holstered. The fact that Zimmerman had a concealed carry weapon (Kel Tech PF9), points to him using an IWB.

pipit March 28th 2012 03:21 AM
Re: Trayvon Martin
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by thebigmole (Post 842103)
Ben I see what you are saying but here's they way I see. Both Zimmerman and Trayvon ultimately reacted out of fear. Trayvon out of fear of being followed, and Zimmerman out of fear of being beaten worse. However if Zimmerman had NEVER followed Trayvon to begin with Trayvon would not have had a reason to be scared and the fight and shooting never would have happened. The thing is Zimmerman wasn't in the wrong to call Trayvon in, he matched the description of someone who had been burgling the neighborhood recently. But getting out of his car to follow Trayvon is where he crossed the line. And honestly it was stupid, and there's no possible reason for him doing it, and those actions lead to Trayvon's death. So while Zimmerman is probably not guilty of murder, his actions still lead to this boy's death. He does hold responsibility.
This.
Honestly if Zimmerman thought Trayvon was a burglar he should have called the police, This is another reason why you don't take the law into your own hands. This could have been easily avoided.

TigerTank77 March 28th 2012 03:44 AM
Re: Trayvon Martin
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr.Bobby (Post 842227)
No, Ben..he's not. It is not legal to stalk someone and then approach them in a way that is menacing or threatening...Remember the purpose of the encounter: To confront someone (with a visible, holstered gun) and question them in the absence of any authority to do so, an without any probable cause.
Except you clearly aren't looking up the law, because he is.

Also again, that entire post was speculation.

Trayvon approached and talked to Zimmerman First. You don't know if his gun was visible. And asking someone a question, is legal.

Let me ask you this. Why do you want this to be a racial issue? Why do you want Zimmerman to be evil and be found guilty?

Quote:
Originally Posted by pipit (Post 842275)
This.
Honestly if Zimmerman thought Trayvon was a burglar he should have called the police, This is another reason why you don't take the law into your own hands. This could have been easily avoided.
He did, and was trying to maintain visual on him until the cops came. Just before Martin approached him, he had stated to the police that he didn't know where Trayvon went.

thebigmole March 28th 2012 04:11 AM
Re: Trayvon Martin
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TigerTank77 (Post 842283)
Except you clearly aren't looking up the law, because he is.

Also again, that entire post was speculation.

Trayvon approached and talked to Zimmerman First. You don't know if his gun was visible. And asking someone a question, is legal.

Let me ask you this. Why do you want this to be a racial issue? Why do you want Zimmerman to be evil and be found guilty?



He did, and was trying to maintain visual on him until the cops came. Just before Martin approached him, he had stated to the police that he didn't know where Trayvon went.
Yes however he could have stayed in his car and still had followed him. Leaving his car was just stupidity, there was no reason to follow Trayvon on foot. And honestly I can't understand what the thought process would have been, Trayvon was bigger than him, and so he must of thought, well I have my gun if he tries anything. But Trayvon wouldn't have been able to kick his ass if he had stayed in his car. I think that's what frustrates me so much at this point, if Zimmerman hadn't made some stupid mistakes this wouldn't have happened. And he's going to have to live with those mistakes for the rest of his life, this man is the new Casey Anthony, his life is NEVER going to be the same. I suggest a name change and getting the hell out of dodge once he's officially cleared, and he will be. Can't arrest someone for stupidity unfortunately, and while I do think he should be charged with manslaughter, because of HIS injuries from that night the self defense case is just too strong. While I'm not thoroughly convinced Zimmerman didn't instigate the fight, there's no way to prove it and it is obvious that at the time of the shot Zimmerman was acting in his own defense.

LittleMissOneBigMess March 28th 2012 06:55 AM
Re: Trayvon Martin
 
No matter who started it, Zimmerman still shot and killed a 17 year old boy..thats what people should be focusing on, no matter how it started a young boy still lost his life, a family will never be the same. Who knows who instigated it, Trayvon could have started it, he could have thrown the first punch but that is still not a good reason to shoot and kill a person, any person. Zimmerman could have started it, and too be quite honest if a man with a gun came up to me, I'd probably freak out too and do anything I could to get out of this situation. Yes it may be important to figure out why it got started and who started it, but the most important part is that a young man lost his life and nobody is being held accountable for it. A 17 year old boy was shot and killed, it shouldnt matter if he did start it, his life was still taken away by someone, no matter who's fault it was, Trayvon still deserves justice for his life being cut short.

Dr.Bobby March 28th 2012 04:28 PM
Re: Trayvon Martin
 
Ben, I'm doing very little speculation here. I think you and a few others are distorting the few facts we do have to justify your own bias here. Again, I'd encourage you to look at what that says about you.

As one of the participants is dead, we cannot get a full account of the story. So, we have to piece it together and use 'Common sense' to fill in the gaps and determine the credibility of Zimmerman's account. As an FYI, the results of the independent investigation did just that, and determined his account was not credible.

It doesn't stand to reason that Trayvon would have approached Zimmerman...who initiated the encounter is crucial to determining responsibility here. As I said, you cannot pick a fight with someone and when you're losing, pull out a gun and shoot them dead and claim self defense. It's not a racial issue, it's a legal one.

TigerTank77 March 28th 2012 06:57 PM
Re: Trayvon Martin
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr.Bobby (Post 842481)
It doesn't stand to reason that Trayvon would have approached Zimmerman...who initiated the encounter is crucial to determining responsibility here.
Trayvon's girlfriend states that while she was on the phone with him, Trayvon said directly that he was going to approach him. She then heard him ask "Why are you following me?" to Zimmerman.

You obviously either haven't read all of the facts surrounding the case, or are ignoring those facts that don't support your view.

What do you think that says about you?

Guile March 28th 2012 07:53 PM
Re: Trayvon Martin
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maverick. (Post 841769)
I can't believe you guys actually think Travyon instigated this whole ordeal. I have no comment towards that. Just because it's a young black boy, he's automatically labeled to be "Thug Material"? Jesus.
And just because a white man shot a black man in self defense he is labelled a racist... *slow clap*

Grey Wind March 28th 2012 09:11 PM
Re: Trayvon Martin
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr.Bobby (Post 842481)
Ben, I'm doing very little speculation here. I think you and a few others are distorting the few facts we do have to justify your own bias here. Again, I'd encourage you to look at what that says about you.
You're the one who assumed Zimmerman threatened Trayvon with a firearm in an open carry holster, and Trayvon acted in self defense. I'll ask again, what is your source for that 'fact', as you called it? Because that basically makes it a shut case that Zimmerman showed intent to harm Trayvon. If that's true, even I'll get out there and march with a Hoodie. What 'facts' were distorted in a bias for Zimmerman?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr.Bobby (Post 842481)
It doesn't stand to reason that Trayvon would have approached Zimmerman...who initiated the encounter is crucial to determining responsibility here. As I said, you cannot pick a fight with someone and when you're losing, pull out a gun and shoot them dead and claim self defense. It's not a racial issue, it's a legal one.
Why not?

Dr.Bobby March 28th 2012 10:57 PM
Re: Trayvon Martin
 
My sources are the New York Times and the TV news. I've also read those stories online from the Orlando Sentinel.

The point remains that a self proclaimed sheriff was stalking someone, that is not in dispute. That is provocative, and as a result, Trayvon's actions could easily be seen under the 'Stand your ground' law.

What it says about me is that I withhold judgement until I have a fair grasp of the facts, and am not distracted by my own prejudices, because I do not have any.

By all accounts, Zimmerman instigated the events that led to the shooting.

Oh, and Guile? The racial component comes into play b/c Trayvon was doing nothing illegal or suspicious, there was no reason to suspect him of being engaged in anything illegal, and certainly no reason to stalk him....yet on the 911 he complains of him using racial slurs. To think that he was following him for no other reason other than his race would be naive.

Tyr. March 28th 2012 11:04 PM
Re: Trayvon Martin
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr.Bobby (Post 842673)
My sources are the New York Times and the TV news. I've also read those stories online from the Orlando Sentinel.

The point remains that a self proclaimed sheriff was stalking someone, that is not in dispute. That is provocative, and as a result, Trayvon's actions could easily be seen under the 'Stand your ground' law.

What it says about me is that I withhold judgement until I have a fair grasp of the facts, and am not distracted by my own prejudices, because I do not have any.

By all accounts, Zimmerman instigated the events that led to the shooting.

Oh, and Guile? The racial component comes into play b/c Trayvon was doing nothing illegal or suspicious, there was no reason to suspect him of being engaged in anything illegal, and certainly no reason to stalk him....yet on the 911 he complains of him using racial slurs. To think that he was following him for no other reason other than his race would be naive.
How confident are you in your sources and understanding of what has occurred?

- Yogi

Dr.Bobby March 28th 2012 11:21 PM
Re: Trayvon Martin
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yogi (Post 842677)
How confident are you in your sources and understanding of what has occurred?

- Yogi
I think there's a lot of unnecessary emotion here, it's just very interesting how in the absence of clear fact people determine what they believe to be true.

I'm as confident as anyone, given that a lot of the info is coming in bits and pieces and a lot of it is circumstantial. I also use a bit of understanding about human nature and how that is expressed thru behavior to arrive at my own conclusions about the info I'm getting. And what that tells me is that when someone is so grandiose (and foolish) that they feel entitled to play vigilante without any clear authority to do so, and they strap on a gun and then actively goes looking for trouble....they find it. The fact that there's a law on the books that allows someone to shoot to kill in a self defense situation doesn't take away from the simple reality that Zimmerman engaging in this fantasy created a situation that resulted in his need to shoot someone he provoked in the first place. Think about what you'd do if you were being stalked for no reason and approached by a stranger with a gun.

What it is about that others cannot understand or accept is beyond me.

Tyr. March 29th 2012 12:06 AM
Re: Trayvon Martin
 
Don't go giving up your day job anytime soon, Doc.

It's painfully obvious that law enforcement isn't really your forte.

- Yogi

thebigmole March 29th 2012 12:06 AM
Re: Trayvon Martin
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr.Bobby (Post 842688)
I think there's a lot of unnecessary emotion here, it's just very interesting how in the absence of clear fact people determine what they believe to be true.

I'm as confident as anyone, given that a lot of the info is coming in bits and pieces and a lot of it is circumstantial. I also use a bit of understanding about human nature and how that is expressed thru behavior to arrive at my own conclusions about the info I'm getting. And what that tells me is that when someone is so grandiose (and foolish) that they feel entitled to play vigilante without any clear authority to do so, and they strap on a gun and then actively goes looking for trouble....they find it. The fact that there's a law on the books that allows someone to shoot to kill in a self defense situation doesn't take away from the simple reality that Zimmerman engaging in this fantasy created a situation that resulted in his need to shoot someone he provoked in the first place. Think about what you'd do if you were being stalked for no reason and approached by a stranger with a gun.

What it is about that others cannot understand or accept is beyond me.
Listen just a few days ago I was all for Zimmerman's complete guilt, but having more facts in the case it's much more complicated than that. The fact is that the neighborhood had had several robberies and that Trayvon fit the description of the suspect in those robberies. Had Trayvon been the thief people would have been upset that if Zimmerman hadn't called the cops. He was wrong and stupid to get out of his car to follow him. If he had really felt the need to keep an eye on Trayvon he could have done that from in his car. Now the next thing we know is that Trayvon was aware he was being followed and told his girlfriend he was going to ask Zimmerman why he was following him. Then the girlfriend heard Trayvon ask that question. The BIG IMPORTANT part that is still missing is what happened after that question was asked and before Trayvon punched Zimmerman. If Zimmerman had physically assaulted Trayvon in ANY WAY then Trayvon was acting in self defense and Zimmerman should be charged with manslaughter. If Trayvon indeed threw the first punch then Zimmerman was acting in his defense and that's the end of it. The thing is we don't know what happened, we probably never will know without a doubt. All we have to go on is what Zimmerman says happened and going off of that it's self defense and there's nothing we can do about it. However I still feel that Zimmerman is responsible, though not legally, because the physical confrontation NEVER would have happened if he had stayed in his car.

Dr.Bobby March 29th 2012 12:41 AM
Re: Trayvon Martin
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yogi (Post 842721)
Don't go giving up your day job anytime soon, Doc.

It's painfully obvious that law enforcement isn't really your forte.

- Yogi
Yogi, there's a reason I didn't select law enforcement as a profession, there's no insight to that remark. However, you'd do well to not dismiss people and their opinions you disagree with because of your inability or unwillingness to see things from a different perspective. You might find yourself at a disadvantage in your dealings with fellow humans.

Grey Wind March 29th 2012 12:43 AM
Re: Trayvon Martin
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by thebigmole (Post 842722)
Listen just a few days ago I was all for Zimmerman's complete guilt, but having more facts in the case it's much more complicated than that. The fact is that the neighborhood had had several robberies and that Trayvon fit the description of the suspect in those robberies. Had Trayvon been the thief people would have been upset that if Zimmerman hadn't called the cops. He was wrong and stupid to get out of his car to follow him. If he had really felt the need to keep an eye on Trayvon he could have done that from in his car. Now the next thing we know is that Trayvon was aware he was being followed and told his girlfriend he was going to ask Zimmerman why he was following him. Then the girlfriend heard Trayvon ask that question. The BIG IMPORTANT part that is still missing is what happened after that question was asked and before Trayvon punched Zimmerman. If Zimmerman had physically assaulted Trayvon in ANY WAY then Trayvon was acting in self defense and Zimmerman should be charged with manslaughter. If Trayvon indeed threw the first punch then Zimmerman was acting in his defense and that's the end of it. The thing is we don't know what happened, we probably never will know without a doubt. All we have to go on is what Zimmerman says happened and going off of that it's self defense and there's nothing we can do about it. However I still feel that Zimmerman is responsible, though not legally, because the physical confrontation NEVER would have happened if he had stayed in his car.
Not true, we know what happened. Zimmerman threatened Trayvon with his firearm while he approached him, giving Trayvon the legal ability to defend himself under the stand your ground law. Dr Bobby said he heard it from the TV, so it must be true. :rolleyes:

But really, this. There hasn't been any mention yet of whether or not Trayvon had 'defensive wounds', that could provide an argument that Zimmerman struck him. I really don't think a grand jury is going to indict Zimmerman just because of his "looking for trouble" motive that Bobby is talking about. There needs to be a clear piece of evidence that Zimmerman provoked a physical confrontation (or even expected one) to bring this to trial, and unless I'm missing something huge, there isn't yet.

thebigmole March 29th 2012 12:54 AM
Re: Trayvon Martin
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Caliber (Post 842744)
Not true, we know what happened. Zimmerman threatened Trayvon with his firearm while he approached him, giving Trayvon the legal ability to defend himself under the stand your ground law. Dr Bobby said he heard it from the TV, so it must be true. :rolleyes:
I know you are joking, but it's just silly to think that Zimmerman threatened Trayvon with his gun. I'm sure Trayvon had NO idea that Zimmerman had a gun until he was shot. No one with a brain punches someone you know has a gun. If he had been attacking Zimmerman because of the gun it would have been to get the gun away from Zimmerman not to beat his head into the ground.

Tyr. March 29th 2012 01:51 AM
Re: Trayvon Martin
 
Doc,

You never stopped to consider that somebody on TeenHelp might have more insight on the matter than that provided by the New York Times.

But that's fine. Rock on with your argument.

- Yogi

Maloo March 29th 2012 05:28 AM
Re: Trayvon Martin
 
So what about the footage of Zimmerman in cuffs with no blood or bruises?

Source is CBS6 news, can't post links from my phone.

thebigmole March 29th 2012 02:38 PM
Re: Trayvon Martin
 
http://wtvr.com/2012/03/28/outcry-mo...rtin-shooting/

This is the link Lissa is talking about. And all I can say is What the Fuck?! I give up now since no one who has the information is just coming straight out and telling us what happened I give up on trying to figure it out. It certainly didn't look like Zimmerman had been punch in the nose, or had his head beaten into the ground.

Also later in the article it says the Trayvon's girlfriend's account of what happened is Trayvon asked why he was following him. Zimmerman asked what he was doing there, and then she says she thinks Trayvon was pushed because she heard a scuffle and the headset fell out of his ear and the phone turned off. If that's accurate then bye-bye self defense for Zimmerman. Honestly I think the smartest thing to do would be to charge him with manslaughter, like investigators have been saying from the beginning. It would appease the masses for now.

TigerTank77 March 29th 2012 03:52 PM
Re: Trayvon Martin
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by thebigmole (Post 843029)
It would appease the masses for now.
Hey, lets just get rid of the legal system and have the fate of every criminal trial decided by am American Idol like voting system.

Part of the element of impartiality is not succumbing to mob rule.

thebigmole March 29th 2012 04:39 PM
Re: Trayvon Martin
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TigerTank77 (Post 843036)
Hey, lets just get rid of the legal system and have the fate of every criminal trial decided by am American Idol like voting system.

Part of the element of impartiality is not succumbing to mob rule.
What I meant was that there's not enough evidence to prove self defense right now. We do know he shot the kid during a fight, so that's manslaughter. He should be arrested for manslaughter and if evidence comes up that proves it was self defense his lawyer can bring it up in court. It's confusing to me as to why they haven't arrested him for manslaughter, especially when the self defense is still he said/he said at this moment. If they would just arrest him a happy result would be appeasing the masses, though that shouldn't be the only reason to do it.

Maloo March 29th 2012 05:31 PM
Re: Trayvon Martin
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TigerTank77 (Post 843036)
Hey, lets just get rid of the legal system and have the fate of every criminal trial decided by am American Idol like voting system.

Part of the element of impartiality is not succumbing to mob rule.
Nothing to say about the fact that Zimmerman was seen visibly uninjured?

TigerTank77 March 29th 2012 06:41 PM
Re: Trayvon Martin
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by thebigmole (Post 843056)
What I meant was that there's not enough evidence to prove self defense right now. We do know he shot the kid during a fight, so that's manslaughter. He should be arrested for manslaughter and if evidence comes up that proves it was self defense his lawyer can bring it up in court. It's confusing to me as to why they haven't arrested him for manslaughter, especially when the self defense is still he said/he said at this moment. If they would just arrest him a happy result would be appeasing the masses, though that shouldn't be the only reason to do it.
Except you can't arrest someone and THEN try to find evidence of his guilt.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maloo (Post 843082)


Nothing to say about the fact that Zimmerman was seen visibly uninjured?
A video with no time stamp, that shows someone that looks like Zimmerman (because it's blurry as hell), after he was treated by medical professionals at the scene of the crime?

Cool.

thebigmole March 29th 2012 07:09 PM
Re: Trayvon Martin
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TigerTank77 (Post 843119)
Except you can't arrest someone and THEN try to find evidence of his guilt.



A video with no time stamp, that shows someone that looks like Zimmerman (because it's blurry as hell), after he was treated by medical professionals at the scene of the crime?

Cool.
Except that there is proof of manslaughter. Manslaughter: The crime of killing a human being without malice aforethought, or otherwise in circumstances not amounting to murder.
We know that Zimmerman shot Trayvon, that is an undisputed fact. What is in dispute is if it's self defense, and that's something that's up to the defense to prove not the cops. Therefore he should be arrested for shooting Trayvon, which we know he did.

girlfromsocal March 29th 2012 08:32 PM
Re: Trayvon Martin
 
what I don't get is why he's free... Or why it's called self defense.

thebigmole March 29th 2012 09:15 PM
Re: Trayvon Martin
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by girlfromsocal (Post 843168)
what I don't get is why he's free... Or why it's called self defense.
I'm also not sure why he's free because he did shoot someone. That's not something that's in dispute. Until proven otherwise he committed manslaughter plain and simple. It's a possible self defense case because Zimmerman says that Trayvon was hitting him and on top of him on the ground when Zimmerman shot him. If Trayvon started the physical altercation then the shooting was self defense, and Zimmerman can get off on the Florida "Stand Your Ground" law. However if Zimmerman started the physical altercation it's not really self defense, though may still actually be covered under that law, which sucks and is going to cause a lot of problems if it's proven Zimmerman started the fight and still gets off.

Maverick. March 29th 2012 10:33 PM
Re: Trayvon Martin
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Caliber (Post 842193)
No, he's thug material because he wears gold grills, is tatted up and has a thug attitude. Modern "black culture" is almost synonymous with "thug culture" these days anyways.
That isn't true. Not every young black boy is a thug. Get all of that foolishness out of your head.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Guile (Post 842576)
And just because a white man shot a black man in self defense he is labelled a racist... *slow clap*
I never said anything about that. You guys were talking about how he is a thug and a gangster and I was just pointing out that just because the victim was black, doesn't mean he was a hoodlum.

Grey Wind March 30th 2012 01:26 AM
Re: Trayvon Martin
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maloo (Post 842875)
So what about the footage of Zimmerman in cuffs with no blood or bruises?

Source is CBS6 news, can't post links from my phone.
That is pretty rough, and only fuels the claims that Trayvon's family is making about falsified police reports, and police strong-arming witnesses and paramedics into giving false statements. I think it's a bit more logical to believe his 'wounds' weren't visible on a security camera, rather than a grand conspiracy conducted by police in collaboration with George Zimmerman against black people. But who knows.
Quote:
Originally Posted by thebigmole (Post 843056)
Except that there is proof of manslaughter. Manslaughter: The crime of killing a human being without malice aforethought, or otherwise in circumstances not amounting to murder.
We know that Zimmerman shot Trayvon, that is an undisputed fact. What is in dispute is if it's self defense, and that's something that's up to the defense to prove not the cops. Therefore he should be arrested for shooting Trayvon, which we know he did. .
Except that's not how it works.

Police initially arrested and interrogated Zimmerman, but ruled it self defense based on evidence and witnesses. Whether this was a fuck up by the police department, or due to facts the public is unaware of remains to be seen. This was challenged, so Zimmerman was issued a grand jury indictment, which is on April 10th. There it is decided whether or not there is enough evidence to bring this to trial and charge Zimmerman. I think they only hear the prosecutions side, though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maverick. (Post 843231)
That isn't true. Not every young black boy is a thug. Get all of that foolishness out of your head.
I never said anything about that. You guys were talking about how he is a thug and a gangster and I was just pointing out that just because the victim was black, doesn't mean he was a hoodlum.
But one mentioned that he was a hoodlum because he was black? I guess it's wrong to be judging people by the content of their character now as well...

girlfromsocal March 30th 2012 01:42 AM
Re: Trayvon Martin
 
zimmerman was not white idk how this has to be a race issue

also whether he was a thug or not I don't think he had any chance to threaten his life. Reason why is because he had nothing with him nothing in his system he did not harrass zimmerman it was the other way around zimmerman pursued him and also the injuries he received from trayvon were minor. So he wasn't in immediate danger. When one gets into a fight with you it doesn't warrant you to pull out a gun on them. If it were the other way around I'd actually feel more sympathy seeing zimmerman was a serious threat in size to trayvon. But this way I don't believe zimmerman was in a life threatening situation. He was well over 50 lbs heavier even though he's only 5'7". He had a gun trayvon had skittles. He picked on a kid and he should be ashamed of himself.

Btw I know people have shot people who started fights with them and guess what? They're in prison rightfully so.

thebigmole March 30th 2012 02:04 AM
Re: Trayvon Martin
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by girlfromsocal (Post 843338)
zimmerman was not white idk how this has to be a race issue

also whether he was a thug or not I don't think he had any chance to threaten his life. Reason why is because he had nothing with him nothing in his system he did not harrass zimmerman it was the other way around zimmerman pursued him and also the injuries he received from trayvon were minor. So he wasn't in immediate danger. When one gets into a fight with you it doesn't warrant you to pull out a gun on them. If it were the other way around I'd actually feel more sympathy seeing zimmerman was a serious threat in size to trayvon. But this way I don't believe zimmerman was in a life threatening situation. He was well over 50 lbs heavier even though he's only 5'7". He had a gun trayvon had skittles. He picked on a kid and he should be ashamed of himself.

Btw I know people have shot people who started fights with them and guess what? They're in prison rightfully so.
Well Trayvon wasn't exactly a kid, he was almost 18 and was quite a bit taller than Zimmerman. And as I explained in my last post the law in Florida is such:
"776.012 Use of force in defense of person.—A person is justified in using force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against the other’s imminent use of unlawful force. However, a person is justified in the use of deadly force and does not have a duty to retreat if: (1) He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony; or(2) Under those circumstances permitted pursuant to s. 776.013."

Now according to Zimmerman Trayvon was beating him to an extent where he felt his life was in danger. He was on top of him and beating his head into the ground and if that is true then under that law he will get off even if he is charged. Whether he "picked on" Trayvon is still unknown. He called the cops because Trayvon fit the description of a robbery suspect. Getting out of his car to follow him was stupid but I wouldn't call it "picking on" him. Trayvon then confronted Zimmerman about being followed at which point something (that we don't know) happened and Trayvon apparently punched him and got on top of him and started banging his head into the sidewalk. Now I'm sure Zimmerman also fought some, before shooting him. The point is according to Florida law Zimmerman will most likely get off because he shot Trayvon because he was in fear for his life. Whether that's really the right outcome kind of doesn't matter because it's the law.

girlfromsocal March 30th 2012 02:14 AM
Re: Trayvon Martin
 
he was taller than zimmerman and stil zimmerman was heavier by a lot. He's obviously very solid. My point exactly in how much mass he had.

And by law he's a minor until 18. He never reached 18 he was a child by law.

Yeah but his bruises weren't life-threatening. He murdered him why would I believe what his claim was? Do you think zimmerman wants to get in trouble of course not. He'll say anything to cover his butt. I don't really trust the accused. I mean we can't use trayvon's side of the story for a reason. He did pursue trayvon imo. If you had a big old creepy man following you you're going to want to defend yourself. Physics tells me he should have been able to get away and the bruises which were not life threatening tell me he wasn't in life threatening danger. There is no evidence but he said she said. I don't buy that.


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