Triggering: Trayvon Martin-George Zimmerman

[Lelola]

Originally Posted by Maverick.

Let me clarify.

If he were white Zimmerman wouldn't have thought anything of the child and would have assumed he was a resident.

That I disagree. Walking around in an oversized hoodie looks suspicious, especially in the area I grew up in regardless of race. I think he was more likely profiled based on clothes.

[Brandon]

Originally Posted by Sarasa

You do know that Zimmerman was Hispanic? When that was pointed out, the media chose to call him white Hispanic.

I know that, but the media portrays him as white. That's what the general audience seems to think about Zimmerman. I know he's Hispanic, but when he's contrasted with a black man, he's going to be white. If it was between Caucasian and Hispanic, THEN Zimmerman would be Hispanic. But I'm just going by what the people seem to think about Zimmerman's nationality...which is white. But I do see your point and I'm sorry for the confusion.

If he were white Zimmerman wouldn't have thought anything of the child and would have assumed he was a resident.

Oh yeah? Says who? I think that's a textbook example of "speculation" if I do say so myself. That's like me saying...hey, if Zimmerman was black, Martin would've greeted him and given him a secret handshake.

[thebigmole]

Originally Posted by Maverick.

Let me clarify.

If he were white Zimmerman wouldn't have thought anything of the child and would have assumed he was a resident.

No that's not correct. First of all obviously Trayvon's family lived in the neighborhood so there were black families in the neighborhood. So it's ridiculous to say that just because Trayvon was black Zimmerman didn't think he was a resident. The main part that people seem to forget, or just not know is that there had been a number of break-ins in Zimmerman's neighborhood. And the description, of the suspect was of a black male, and what was Trayvon oh yeah a black male. That combined with the fact that Zimmerman didn't recognized Zimmerman as a resident and the fact that he was acting suspicious all added to up Zimmerman following him. He didn't just see a black kid and say he's black that must mean he's bad.

[Maverick.]

Agree to disagree.

And you just contradicted yourself. He said the community has had many burglaries that were committed by black men. If he were white, he wouldn't have confronted him as the burglars were black.

[Snufkin]

It's ludicrious to suggest that if the description of the burglar had been a white male that Zimmerman would've followed him.

[CorrieUSMC]

Originally Posted by Snufkin

It's ludicrious to suggest that if the description of the burglar had been a white male that Zimmerman would've followed him.

It's 'ludicrious' to make stuff up that you don't know about. If a person is being suspicious they're being suspicious.

[TigerTank77]

Originally Posted by Maverick.

If he were white, he wouldn't have confronted him as the burglars were black.

Originally Posted by Snufkin

It's ludicrious to suggest that if the description of the burglar had been a white male that Zimmerman would've followed him.

And if the media hadn't tried it's hardest to paint Zimmerman as a white man, neither of you would even know that anything happened.

The only reason this is a big issue is because the media, MSNBC especially, attempted to stir up racial tension to make a profit both economically and politically- and the cognitive dissonance they sold you isn't contributing anything to the conversation except misinformation and racist falsehoods.

[cherrypie36]

statics prove that in the state of texas....blacks are more likely to get the death penality.
Racism? No. its not racism at ALL.

http://bossip.com/742759/race-matter...s-than-whites/

AND it shows blacks are 3 times likely to get the death penality all together

http://www.amnestyusa.org/our-work/i...nalty-and-race

[TigerTank77]

Originally Posted by cherrypie36

statics prove that in the state of texas....blacks are more likely to get the death penality.
Racism? No. its not racism at ALL.

http://bossip.com/742759/race-matter...s-than-whites/

AND it shows blacks are 3 times likely to get the death penality all together

http://www.amnestyusa.org/our-work/i...nalty-and-race

And this is related to this... how?

[thebigmole]

Originally Posted by Maverick.

Agree to disagree.

And you just contradicted yourself. He said the community has had many burglaries that were committed by black men. If he were white, he wouldn't have confronted him as the burglars were black.

I didn't contradict myself you just misunderstood me. You said that if Trayvon were white Zimmerman would have just thought he was a resident. I was saying that just because Trayvon was black didn't mean he couldn't have been a resident. You were assuming that all of the residents in the suburb are white, when they can't be since Trayvon's family lives there. Therefore the reason Zimmerman suspected Trayvon was NOT just because he was black, but because the description of the suspect was of a black male AND Zimmerman didn't recognize Trayvon. And as the starter of the neighborhood watch in his community I'm sure he knows pretty much everyone who lives there.



I mean if there had been break ins in your neighborhood, and you had a description of the person who was doing it, and you saw someone walking around your neighborhood late at night who you didn't recognize and they fit the description you CANNOT tell me you wouldn't be wary of that person. Whether they were white, black, Hispanic, or purple if they fit the description and you didn't know them you would be suspicious. Not saying you would then follow that person, and go as far as Zimmerman did, but you seriously cannot blame him for being wary of Trayvon.

[Lelola]

Side note. My sister was pulled over by the cops at 3 am because she was driving a green Honda and they were looking for a silver Honda.

I think the biggest issue is that while Zimmerman was wrong, Martin was wrong too. Martin had a phone. He could have called the cops and reported a crazy guy was following him. Instead of calling the cops, he decided to instead follow Zimmerman and beat him up.

[cherrypie36]

Originally Posted by TigerTank77

And this is related to this... how?

HOW ya'll seem to think that race doesn't play a factor when in fact, it plays a big factor.

[Lelola]

Originally Posted by cherrypie36

HOW ya'll seem to think that race doesn't play a factor when in fact, it plays a big factor.

It does play a part. It plays a huge part. Because people are emotional regarding racism, the media was able to twist the emotions of people into overreacting. The media was able to sell a bunch of stories based on saying there was racism. It is also a crutch that the parents will be able to use to blame the horrible incident on regardless of whether there was racism. In their minds, they will not see that their child made his own mistakes. That the child decided to attack someone because he felt like they were attacking him.

If Martin was white, then people like Jesse Jackson would not have paid attention. Why? It's two white people shooting each other and they would not have been able to play the race card. If it was two black people involved in the shooting, then would they have cared? No.

I think in many ways, racism played a part in making the situation what it was. Without it being one person that passes for white and one black guy, the media would not have cared as much.

In the end of the day, it is what sells. If no one pays attention, then why bother?

[cherrypie36]

im not talking about moral racism. im talking about factual, blacks are more likely to get convicted than whites.

[Maverick.]

Originally Posted by thebigmole

I didn't contradict myself you just misunderstood me. You said that if Trayvon were white Zimmerman would have just thought he was a resident. I was saying that just because Trayvon was black didn't mean he couldn't have been a resident. You were assuming that all of the residents in the suburb are white, when they can't be since Trayvon's family lives there. Therefore the reason Zimmerman suspected Trayvon was NOT just because he was black, but because the description of the suspect was of a black male AND Zimmerman didn't recognize Trayvon. And as the starter of the neighborhood watch in his community I'm sure he knows pretty much everyone who lives there.



I mean if there had been break ins in your neighborhood, and you had a description of the person who was doing it, and you saw someone walking around your neighborhood late at night who you didn't recognize and they fit the description you CANNOT tell me you wouldn't be wary of that person. Whether they were white, black, Hispanic, or purple if they fit the description and you didn't know them you would be suspicious. Not saying you would then follow that person, and go as far as Zimmerman did, but you seriously cannot blame him for being wary of Trayvon.

1.I never said the community was all white. There are lots of black people in Florida having a big Creole population.

2.If I were in Zimmerman's shoes and supposedly being a neighborhood watchmen in alert of there being a high burglary scene, I would have confronted Trayvon, (Please note that as a watchman, your job is to watch and not be police) and said "Buddy, or son, my name is George and I live in Apt X, and .... and that's how it should have went.

[Lelola]

Originally Posted by Maverick.

1.I never said the community was all white. There are lots of black people in Florida having a big Creole population.

2.If I were in Zimmerman's shoes and supposedly being a neighborhood watchmen in alert of there being a high burglary scene, I would have confronted Trayvon, (Please note that as a watchman, your job is to watch and not be police) and said "Buddy, or son, my name is George and I live in Apt X, and .... and that's how it should have went.

It's easy to say what you would have done. In reality, we don't know what you would have done. It's easy to say you would do X, Y, and Z. At the end of the day, you were not in that situation.

Also, on the 911 tape, Zimmerman mentions he sees him having his hand in his waistband.

I think Martin was profiled based on his clothes.

[CorrieUSMC]

Originally Posted by Maverick.

1.I never said the community was all white. There are lots of black people in Florida having a big Creole population.

2.If I were in Zimmerman's shoes and supposedly being a neighborhood watchmen in alert of there being a high burglary scene, I would have confronted Trayvon, (Please note that as a watchman, your job is to watch and not be police) and said "Buddy, or son, my name is George and I live in Apt X, and .... and that's how it should have went.

Its easy now to Monday quarterback. How do you know Trayvon wouldn't of assaulted you anyway? You don't, because you weren't there, you weren't George Zimmerman, and you weren't in his situation.

[thebigmole]

Originally Posted by Maverick.

1.I never said the community was all white. There are lots of black people in Florida having a big Creole population.

2.If I were in Zimmerman's shoes and supposedly being a neighborhood watchmen in alert of there being a high burglary scene, I would have confronted Trayvon, (Please note that as a watchman, your job is to watch and not be police) and said "Buddy, or son, my name is George and I live in Apt X, and .... and that's how it should have went.

So you are saying that if you were out in the middle of the night and saw someone looking suspicious who matched a description of a suspect, you would just approach that person and ask them what they were doing, not even knowing if they had a weapon or not? I'm sorry but that sounds like the most reckless thing to do. "Hey there's something over there that could be dangerous, let's go poke it with a stick."

[Snufkin]

Barack Obama says that "Trayvon Martin could have been me, 35 years ago" and acknowledges the mindset "that if a white male teen was involved in the same kind of scenario, both the outcome and the aftermath might have been different" - Link.

[CorrieUSMC]

Originally Posted by Snufkin

Barack Obama says that "Trayvon Martin could have been me, 35 years ago" and acknowledges the mindset "that if a white male teen was involved in the same kind of scenario, both the outcome and the aftermath might have been different" - Link.

Or that The Government is trying to divide the People with a race war so People are more concerned about a VERDICT THAT HAS ALREADY TAKEN PLACE. Rather then the real issues that Americans should really be angry about, Like I don't know the NSA, IRS, Fast and Furious, and Benghazi.

[Snufkin]

You and I disagree on the race debate in this story, but I gotta agree, he'll be relieved this is distracting everyone from the NSA right now.

[Sammichez]

I don't know what George Zimmerman had to defend himself from. Last time I checked, a pack of Skittles and a can of Arizona ice tea aren't weapons.

[Koharuchan]

Originally Posted by CowboyBebop2000

I don't know what George Zimmerman had to defend himself from. Last time I checked, a pack of Skittles and a can of Arizona ice tea aren't weapons.

You know, you're very right that a pack of skittles and a can of tea aren't weapons. But Trayvon Martin's fists pack a pretty good punch.

[Maverick.]

What would be Trayvon's motive for beating the shit out of George? All you Zimmerman supporters answer that please

[Snufkin]

And for our new installment of "Florida, can't you do anything right?", allegations against the jurors are now coming to light, since they had access to family and friends. One even said her book which she planned to write, now scrapped, would be about her and her husband's perspectives of the trial. Hmm. Link.

[thebigmole]

Originally Posted by Maverick.

What would be Trayvon's motive for beating the shit out of George? All you Zimmerman supporters answer that please

First of all I'm sure his motive was that he was pissed that this guy was following, and Zimmerman probably made it worse by saying something when Trayvon confronted him.

Secondly are you seriously trying to say that Trayvon did NOT beat up Zimmerman? So what all the evidence saying that he did, such as pictures of Zimmerman's injuries, and that Trayvon had to be on top of Zimmerman when he was shot, is just made up?

Also I'm not a Zimmerman supporter, I don't support when he did. I thought he should have gotten manslaughter. My opinion is completely based on the facts of the case, not the bullshit the media has said since day one. And I do not believe that Zimmerman hunted down and killed this boy just for the fun of it. And honestly it's ignorant to believe otherwise.

[TigerTank77]

Originally Posted by Maverick.

What would be Trayvon's motive for beating the shit out of George? All you Zimmerman supporters answer that please

He was a violent asshole with a record who felt justified in assaulting someone else?

Why shouldn't Zimmerman have the right to defend himself in a physical confrontation started by someone who he was walking away from? Do you think his plan was to start a fight and let Trayvon beat the shit out of him so he could to shoot him in self defense?

Occam's Razor bro. The most likely scenario is that Trayvon started the fight. It's sucks, but there's nothing to prove otherwise.

[dr2005]

Originally Posted by TigerTank77

He was a violent asshole with a record who felt justified in assaulting someone else?

Oh dear, Ben:

Originally Posted by The Denver Post

Also Monday, the state Department of Juvenile Justice confirmed that Martin does not have a juvenile offender record. The information came after a public records request by The Associated Press.

Source

From a glance at other sources it may well be the case that he got into fights at school and the like, but (a) that's the norm for most teenage boys and (b) that's quite some way from being "a violent asshole with a record".

[Snufkin]

If we're going on chit chat, there are accusations that Zimmerman molested a woman for over 10 years starting at the age of 6. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...n_1676729.html

[TigerTank77]

Originally Posted by dr2005

Oh dear, Ben:

Source

(a) that's Trayvon’s backpack contained 12 pieces of jewelry, in addition to a watch and a large flathead screwdriver, according to the report, which described silver wedding bands and earrings with diamonds.

Trayvon was asked if the jewelry belonged to his family or a girlfriend.

“Martin replied it’s not mine. A friend gave it to me,” he responded, according to the report. Trayvon declined to name the friend.

Trayvon was not disciplined because of the discovery, but was instead suspended for graffiti, according to the report. School police impounded the jewelry and sent photos of the items to detectives at Miami-Dade police for further investigation.

Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/2...#storylink=cpy and (b) that's quite some way from being "a violent asshole with a record".

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013...ts-limits?lite

-Texts and video that suggest that Martin was involved in organized fights.
-Texts and photos from Martin’s cellphone that refer to or show firearms. "U gotta gun?" reads a text from Martin's phone, sent eight days before his death. The defense cited a photo of a hand holding a gun, taken with Martin’s phone, and another picture of a gun on a bed.

http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/2...t-trayvon.html

Trayvon’s backpack contained 12 pieces of jewelry, in addition to a watch and a large flathead screwdriver, according to the report, which described silver wedding bands and earrings with diamonds.

Trayvon was asked if the jewelry belonged to his family or a girlfriend.

“Martin replied it’s not mine. A friend gave it to me,” he responded, according to the report. Trayvon declined to name the friend.

Trayvon was not disciplined because of the discovery, but was instead suspended for graffiti, according to the report. School police impounded the jewelry and sent photos of the items to detectives at Miami-Dade police for further investigation.

While it's all irrelevant to that night of the incident, he DID have a history, which included organized fights and possible possession of an illegal handgun. We can pretend it either doesn't matter, or make up excuses about it only being brought up because of his race (which is stupid), but Trayvon was not some innocent child. He certainly wouldn't have been afraid of starting a fight with someone.

Originally Posted by Snufkin

If we're going on chit chat, there are accusations that Zimmerman molested a woman for over 10 years starting at the age of 6. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...n_1676729.html

Not only does this have no relevance to the incident, it's an accusation with no presented evidence, and a pretty petty attempt at derailing the conversation into tangents and misinformation.

[dr2005]

Originally Posted by TigerTank77

While it's all irrelevant to that night of the incident, he DID have a history, which included organized fights and possible possession of an illegal handgun. We can pretend it either doesn't matter, or make up excuses about it only being brought up because of his race (which is stupid), but Trayvon was not some innocent child. He certainly wouldn't have been afraid of starting a fight with someone.

I'll address each of those in turn:

1) The organised fights: I believe the texts and videos you refer to were excluded by the trial judge, Debra Nelson, on the grounds that they were irrelevant and the defence did not seek to introduce them at trial at a later date. That means the evidence is untested, and its reliability therefore rests at the level of hearsay (i.e. not particularly strong). Mere "suggestion" is not sufficient to establish a record, and your subsequent claim that he "wouldn't have been afraid to start a fight" rests on nothing stronger than speculation. I got into fights at school, yet I don't tend to walk up to people and start pummeling their head in.
2) The firearm: See above. Also, claiming possession of a gun leads to a propensity for violence would somewhat harm your claims about Mr Zimmerman...
3) The jewellery: Given the items in question, I find it very surprising indeed that such a haul would not result in an arrest and charge. Twelve items of jewellery and a screwdriver is pretty suspicious, after all, and certainly would not result in merely a suspension in most jurisdictions. Indeed, the reports suggest the suspension was for a graffiti incident and that no action was taken in relation to the jewellery discovery, which raises some concerns as to the reliability of the claims about it. In particular, the report states further down that the police found no evidence that they were stolen items or that Martin was involved in any such activity.

As I alluded to above, "history" is some way from a "record", and certainly the general understanding of a "record" in this context. Perhaps my background in law makes me take these things with a larger-than-average pinch of salt, but I think throwing around accusations about the character of the parties (particularly the deceased, who is in no position to respond to them) is pretty counterproductive. I'd prefer to leave it to see if any further action is taken by the DoJ.

[Lelola]

dr2005, are you viewing the situation as if you are Trayvon Martin? You need to be able to separate what you think you would do in the case. You state you started fights but you won't go pummel in someone's head has nothing to do with this situation. Trayvon Martin did do damage to Zimmerman's face and back of head. He was sitting on Zimmerman when he was shot.

It is a good thing that people do not let emotions dictate the court case. It requires proof beyond a reasonable doubt. Most people have issues regarding this and instead go with their emotions. A psychology experiment was set up and they found that a shocking amount of students would convict people without even evidence.

One thing that still bothers me is why did Trayvon Martin never call the police? If someone is following you, wouldn't you want to call the police? He was talking to his friend on the phone so he did have a phone. I would call 911 before getting into a fight with someone following me.

[dr2005]

Originally Posted by Sarasa

dr2005, are you viewing the situation as if you are Trayvon Martin? You need to be able to separate what you think you would do in the case. You state you started fights but you won't go pummel in someone's head has nothing to do with this situation. Trayvon Martin did do damage to Zimmerman's face and back of head. He was sitting on Zimmerman when he was shot.

With all due respect, you have missed the point I was trying to make. My comment had nothing to do with viewing the situation as if I were Trayvon Martin; it was to point out that assuming someone is more likely to get into a fight with a random person on the street because they have a record of fights in school is a fallacy. Yes, there is suggestion that he got into fights at school; yes, he got into a fight with Zimmerman. But saying the two are connected without any supporting evidence is basest speculation, and that's why I flagged it up. I hope that clarifies the situation.

Originally Posted by Sarasa

One thing that still bothers me is why did Trayvon Martin never call the police? If someone is following you, wouldn't you want to call the police? He was talking to his friend on the phone so he did have a phone. I would call 911 before getting into a fight with someone following me.

Good question. I suppose it comes down to the "fight or flight" reflex - stopping and phoning the police is something which is more likely to follow the flight course of action. Martin, for whatever reason, went with the fight course of action - perhaps with a view to subduing his pursuer and then phoning the police. I'm not saying it makes a great deal of sense (it doesn't to me, at any rate), but I can see how that would occur to someone his age.

[Lelola]

Originally Posted by dr2005

With all due respect, you have missed the point I was trying to make. My comment had nothing to do with viewing the situation as if I were Trayvon Martin; it was to point out that assuming someone is more likely to get into a fight with a random person on the street because they have a record of fights in school is a fallacy. Yes, there is suggestion that he got into fights at school; yes, he got into a fight with Zimmerman. But saying the two are connected without any supporting evidence is basest speculation, and that's why I flagged it up. I hope that clarifies the situation.

Actually, fighting in school is not the norm. If they are likely to get fights in school, then yes they are more likely to get fights outside of school. However, with strangers is debatable.

Good question. I suppose it comes down to the "fight or flight" reflex - stopping and phoning the police is something which is more likely to follow the flight course of action. Martin, for whatever reason, went with the fight course of action - perhaps with a view to subduing his pursuer and then phoning the police. I'm not saying it makes a great deal of sense (it doesn't to me, at any rate), but I can see how that would occur to someone his age.

I'd lean towards he was angry and wanted to teach the guy a lesson before I would say he wanted to subdue and then call the police. People who beat up another person usually do not call the police. If there is a chance that they may get in trouble, they lie about it and refuse to say where they were located when they got beat up or attacked another person. It's kind of funny when someone "doesn't know" where they were when they got beaten up, but then a girlfriend comes in and answers the question for them before they can signal that they want them to keep quiet.

[dr2005]

Originally Posted by Sarasa

Actually, fighting in school is not the norm. If they are likely to get fights in school, then yes they are more likely to get fights outside of school. However, with strangers is debatable.

Did I say it was the norm? Leaving aside that point (which is debatable - certainly I'd say it's more likely than not that teenage boys will get into fights at school at some point or another, to varying degrees of seriousness), you are stating your opinion as fact with no supporting evidence. School is a different environment to the street, and asserting a connection between behaviour in one and behaviour in the other is on very shaky ground.

Originally Posted by Sarasa

I'd lean towards he was angry and wanted to teach the guy a lesson before I would say he wanted to subdue and then call the police. People who beat up another person usually do not call the police. If there is a chance that they may get in trouble, they lie about it and refuse to say where they were located when they got beat up or attacked another person. It's kind of funny when someone "doesn't know" where they were when they got beaten up, but then a girlfriend comes in and answers the question for them before they can signal that they want them to keep quiet.

Key words jumping out for me there are "I'd lean towards" - again, this is a statement of your opinion, which is valid but on its own not conclusive. There's a whole spectrum of possible responses a person could have to a situation, and without knowing what was actually going through their mind at the time (which is impossible in this case for obvious reasons) we're in the realm of speculation. What people "usually" do is again in the realm of speculation - I know of people who have in fact used violence to subdue someone and called the police, most notably an old sensei from Jitsu who did that on a number of occasions. I'm not saying it's necessarily the most rational response to the situation, but it's one which is plausible.

[Brandon]

http://www.cnn.com/2013/07/22/us/flo...html?hpt=hp_c3

This is not exactly relevant to the discussion, but it does involve Zimmerman being a rational human being that he seems to be. It's going to be difficult for him to get rid of this common view that he's a "racist." I can only imagine what he's going through...you're already grieved with killing a dude, and now you gotta deal with people on your back the whole time claiming that you're a racist. Gotta be tough, but I'm glad that the public eye is...kinda sorta moving their eyes away from him cause, you know, <sarcasm>William and Kate's baby is important</sarcasm>.

[Maverick.]

That doesn't mean anything. He didn't save anybody.

[thebigmole]

Originally Posted by Maverick.

That doesn't mean anything. He didn't save anybody.

The man has to wear a bullet proof vest 24/7 because half of the country wants to kill him, and he goes out of his way to help these people. Not something he had to do at all, put him in a vulnerable situation. I'm not saying the guy's a saint, he did still kill someone, but maybe just maybe he's not the psycho cold-blooded killer so many people are making him out to be.

[Vagina]

[TigerTank77]

Originally Posted by Maverick.

That doesn't mean anything. He didn't save anybody.

Dude, come on.