breast feeding in public

[Jack]

Originally Posted by PhoenixAlive

Okay, let's look at the legality of this issue. It is within a woman's legal right to feed her child. A store or restaurant owner can be sued if they force her to leave. This is because a person's right can only be disregarded if what they are doing infringes on another person's right to a higher degree. So how is a woman breastfeeding infringing on a restaurant patron's legal rights?

Really? I'm not saying that you're incorrect but I'd be interested to see the statutory basis or precedent for this.

Originally Posted by PhoenixAlive

Our friends were far too immature to be left with our daughter alone... But as I said before, babies eat every two hours. Its hard to feed your baby, get ready to go, drop of the baby at a friend or relative's house, go out for dinner, then come back and pick up the baby, then go home and feed the baby all in a two hour time-frame. It is just unreasonable for a woman to have to do that as opposed to feeding her baby where she is. It is much easier for you to avert your eyes or move to a different table if it bugs you than for the mother to change her whole schedule just because you are uncomfortable with seeing her feed her baby.

This seems like a rather selfish view, it expects other people to fit their lives around you. I've yet to see the schedule which involves going to a restaurant with your kid. If you need to breast feed then don't go, it's that simple. Most people here have no issue with it in most public places, but they realise that there is a common courtesy of not doing it in certain very formal places. If I were a woman, I wouldn't breast feed at dinner with the queen for example. Not to mention that "don't look" is easier said than done in a situation like that. It's an activity that draws the eye and often the sort of people who will decide to breast feed in that situation are the agressive "yeah look at me, so what?"

You have to make sacrifices when you have a kid and if that means not going to a restaurant for 6 months then so be it. You can't take your child clubbing and expect them to turn the music down for you, after all the baby needs sleep and the music might be waking it up, and shouldn't take a teething child to a cinema and you can't expect a restaurant to rearrange their clientele just for you because you're putting them off their food. There are just certain things you don't do if you have manners or etiquette and getting your breasts out in a top restaurant for whatever reason is one of them.

If you're not into using a bottle milk/formula, getting a babysitter, hiring a wetnurse, staying at home or going to a lower quality eating estalishment where that sort of thing would be allowed then tough.

I can only see a problem with breast feeding in rather exceptional circumstances but those circumstances do exist.

[PhoenixAlive]

Originally Posted by Jack

Really? I'm not saying that you're incorrect but I'd be interested to see the statutory basis or precedent for this.

http://www.ohrc.on.ca/en/resources/a...rt-POLICY.html

Pregnancy and Breastfeeding


Under Section 10 (2) of the Code, the “right to equal treatment without discrimination because of sex includes the right to equal treatment without discrimination because a woman is or may become pregnant.” Birth and breastfeeding are natural parts of child rearing and are integrally related to the ground of sex. Refusing or denying a service to a woman who is pregnant or is breastfeeding violates the Code on the ground of sex.

In February 1999, the Commission settled a complaint related to an incident involving a woman who was breastfeeding her child in a restaurant and was asked by restaurant management to stop breastfeeding, to move to the restaurant’s washroom or to leave the restaurant. A key element of the settlement included a request by both the complainant and the respondents that the Commission develop an explicit policy regarding the rights of women to breastfeed in public, if they so choose. This includes the right not to be disturbed or denied access to services. Breastfeeding mothers have the same right to avail themselves of services, without discrimination, as all other people in Ontario.

As a result of the settlement, the Commission clarified and expanded its interpretation of the right of women to breastfeed and revised its Policy on Pregnancy to reflect the protection of breastfeeding in public areas. The Commission also developed a plain language version of its Policy on Pregnancy as well as a flyer entitled, Your Rights as a Nursing Mother. Both were distributed to public health units and midwives’ associations across the province during National Breastfeeding Week in October 1999. The right to be accommodated at work is also part of the Policy on Pregnancy.

Originally Posted by Jack

This seems like a rather selfish view, it expects other people to fit their lives around you. I've yet to see the schedule which involves going to a restaurant with your kid. If you need to breast feed then don't go, it's that simple. Most people here have no issue with it in most public places, but they realise that there is a common courtesy of not doing it in certain very formal places. If I were a woman, I wouldn't breast feed at dinner with the queen for example. Not to mention that "don't look" is easier said than done in a situation like that. It's an activity that draws the eye and often the sort of people who will decide to breast feed in that situation are the agressive "yeah look at me, so what?"

You have to make sacrifices when you have a kid and if that means not going to a restaurant for 6 months then so be it. You can't take your child clubbing and expect them to turn the music down for you, after all the baby needs sleep and the music might be waking it up, and shouldn't take a teething child to a cinema and you can't expect a restaurant to rearrange their clientele just for you because you're putting them off their food. There are just certain things you don't do if you have manners or etiquette and getting your breasts out in a top restaurant for whatever reason is one of them.

If you're not into using a bottle milk/formula, getting a babysitter, hiring a wetnurse, staying at home or going to a lower quality eating estalishment where that sort of thing would be allowed then tough.

I can only see a problem with breast feeding in rather exceptional circumstances but those circumstances do exist.

Okay, come on... I'm talking about a reasonable thing, here. My husband and I go out for dinner and rent a movie once a month. It is literally the only form of a date or entertainment we have. Couples with babies have to do something nice together once in a while to reconnect or the relationship will start to fall apart.

We usually just go to a place like Wild Wing, Swiss Chalet, or a Fish and Chips Diner, because that is all we can afford. I'm not talking about fancy restaurants here. And when we go we take our daughter because we literally can't afford a sitter. If I were breastfeeding, why would I have to completely ruin my one date a month with my husband just because you find it a little off-putting. I'm not making anyone else "fit their lives around me". They can just keep doing what they would do anyways and not force me to lose out just because they are selfish.

[Jack]

Originally Posted by PhoenixAlive

http://www.ohrc.on.ca/en/resources/a...rt-POLICY.html

Pregnancy and Breastfeeding


Under Section 10 (2) of the Code, the “right to equal treatment without discrimination because of sex includes the right to equal treatment without discrimination because a woman is or may become pregnant.” Birth and breastfeeding are natural parts of child rearing and are integrally related to the ground of sex. Refusing or denying a service to a woman who is pregnant or is breastfeeding violates the Code on the ground of sex.

In February 1999, the Commission settled a complaint related to an incident involving a woman who was breastfeeding her child in a restaurant and was asked by restaurant management to stop breastfeeding, to move to the restaurant’s washroom or to leave the restaurant. A key element of the settlement included a request by both the complainant and the respondents that the Commission develop an explicit policy regarding the rights of women to breastfeed in public, if they so choose. This includes the right not to be disturbed or denied access to services. Breastfeeding mothers have the same right to avail themselves of services, without discrimination, as all other people in Ontario.

As a result of the settlement, the Commission clarified and expanded its interpretation of the right of women to breastfeed and revised its Policy on Pregnancy to reflect the protection of breastfeeding in public areas. The Commission also developed a plain language version of its Policy on Pregnancy as well as a flyer entitled, Your Rights as a Nursing Mother. Both were distributed to public health units and midwives’ associations across the province during National Breastfeeding Week in October 1999. The right to be accommodated at work is also part of the Policy on Pregnancy.

Awesome.


I'm potentially studying international family law next year so I like to learn new things about it.

Okay, come on... I'm talking about a reasonable thing, here. My husband and I go out for dinner and rent a movie once a month. It is literally the only form of a date or entertainment we have. Couples with babies have to do something nice together once in a while to reconnect or the relationship will start to fall apart.

We usually just go to a place like Wild Wing, Swiss Chalet, or a Fish and Chips Diner, because that is all we can afford. I'm not talking about fancy restaurants here. And when we go we take our daughter because we literally can't afford a sitter. If I were breastfeeding, why would I have to completely ruin my one date a month with my husband just because you find it a little off-putting. I'm not making anyone else "fit their lives around me". They can just keep doing what they would do anyways and not force me to lose out just because they are selfish.

Well that's fine. As I said, it's only in very formal situations that there would be an issue such as high quality restaurants.

Surely you can see that the pendulum of the accusation of being selfish can swing both ways depending on perspective? You want to go to a restaurant and have a nice time, thus potentially inconveniencing some people and some people want to not have a breast feeding person in the restaurant putting them off their food, thus potentially inconveniencing you.

Please don't get offended, I'm simply playing Devil's Advocate most of the time.

[PhoenixAlive]

Originally Posted by Jack

Awesome.


I'm potentially studying international family law next year so I like to learn new things about it.



Well that's fine. As I said, it's only in very formal situations that there would be an issue such as high quality restaurants.

Surely you can see that the pendulum of the accusation of being selfish can swing both ways depending on perspective? You want to go to a restaurant and have a nice time, thus potentially inconveniencing some people and some people want to not have a breast feeding person in the restaurant putting them off their food, thus potentially inconveniencing you.

Please don't get offended, I'm simply playing Devil's Advocate most of the time.

That's cool I minored in law when I was in Uni for journalism, and sometimes I enjoy the law more than reporting.

Sorry if I seemed offended. I agree that in very fancy settings it is inappropriate to bring a baby in general, whether or not they have to be breastfed. Surely you can see that it is more of an inconvenience for a woman to have to leave her dinner for a half-hour to feed, or leave the restaurant early, or even not go at all, than for someone to try to ignore the baby being fed and eat.

[Thurineth]

Originally Posted by PhoenixAlive

That's cool I minored in law when I was in Uni for journalism, and sometimes I enjoy the law more than reporting.

Sorry if I seemed offended. I agree that in very fancy settings it is inappropriate to bring a baby in general, whether or not they have to be breastfed. Surely you can see that it is more of an inconvenience for a woman to have to leave her dinner for a half-hour to feed, or leave the restaurant early, or even not go at all, than for someone to try to ignore the baby being fed and eat.

Seems to me you're just arguing for the sake of it now, since your opinion from the last page to this has went from one to the other.

In the end there is no right or wrong answer, a matter of opinion which you have to respect others for. If they don't like it? Fine.

You do have to consider everyone in this situation though. From my perspective I was trying to say that its also hard for the staff, they're running around enough, in busy restaurants the high chairs might make it harder for them to manouvre round the tables etc.

At the same time, if you're out having a civilised meal and someone brings their family, including a 4 year old who is misbehaving and causing a riot... its not the best atmosphere there either. Nor is a child crying in the background.

You get into routines with feeding children, you don't HAVE to feed them every hour or so, although it IS easier to judge how much they are actually taking when feeding from a bottle, it gets the child into a routine for later life.

[PhoenixAlive]

Originally Posted by Vlora

Seems to me you're just arguing for the sake of it now, since your opinion from the last page to this has went from one to the other.

In the end there is no right or wrong answer, a matter of opinion which you have to respect others for. If they don't like it? Fine.

You do have to consider everyone in this situation though. From my perspective I was trying to say that its also hard for the staff, they're running around enough, in busy restaurants the high chairs might make it harder for them to manouvre round the tables etc.

At the same time, if you're out having a civilised meal and someone brings their family, including a 4 year old who is misbehaving and causing a riot... its not the best atmosphere there either. Nor is a child crying in the background.

You get into routines with feeding children, you don't HAVE to feed them every hour or so, although it IS easier to judge how much they are actually taking when feeding from a bottle, it gets the child into a routine for later life.

I didn't change my opinion, I misunderstood Jack's original statement. In very, very fancy places most parents couldn't afford to go anyways, yes, bringing an infant is inappropriate. In normal restaurants it is completely acceptable.

And the example of the screaming 4 year-old happens all the time. No matter where you go in public, chances are there is going to be one unruly toddler making a fuss. Its so common that it just fades into the background.

Also, no restaurant staff have ever complained about my daughter's highchair being in the way. They've all been really nice.

When a baby is going through a growth spurt (mine seems to be in a constant growth spurt) it really does seem like you finish one feeding just in time to start the next. You don't make a feeding schedule for an infant. You go by their schedule. ie when they're hungry, you feed them.

The bottom line really is that it is illegal to force a woman to move, leave, or deny them services if they are breastfeeding.

[Stuckinhell]

Originally Posted by ThrashAttack

In my personal opinion i think it is disgusting , there is a time and place for that type of thing.

That really made me laugh. A time and a place. It's a baby for god sake. If its hungry then you feed it- you dont let it wait.

And people keep suggesting bottle feeding instead. The bond created for mother and child through breastfeeding shouldnt be broken just because someone doesnt like it.

To me, its really natural and shouldnt cause a problem.

However, i also dont think its too hard to turn around a bit, theres no need to flaunt it. Mind you, when the baby's heads there, theres not really much to see

[ThrashAttack]

That really made me laugh. A time and a place. It's a baby for god sake. If its hungry then you feed it- you dont let it wait.

Well, if you botherd to scan your tiny little eyes through this Thread you would see that i took back that statement.

[delete]

I would love to breastfeed my future children for the first 10 or so months of their life, but i would have enough common courtesy to cover up a little. Would this make me a bad mother? No. I just would feel embarassed, and i wouldn't want to offend people, as i think it is plain rude to have your boobs all whipped out nursing a baby. I am a very motherly person, and although i understand why some people don't care, it isn't polite, and it is offensive to have sexual "things" out in public. I would simply cover up, be more discreet, or maybe go to a car. And my mother bottle/breastfed my sister, and she seems fine. Same with me :P But what i would find odd is having a conversation with someone who whips the girls out right in front of me to nurse. Whatever, you can think it is beautiful, but in the end, it is deemed rude not to cover up, and just whipping it out saying you are oppressed is like saying fuck you. There is nothing wrong with being discreet and breastfeeding, and the bond between mother and child is beautiful, but i don't want to see how well you two bond by boobs being whipped out w/o discretion lol. Cover up? yes, so it's discreet. Bathrooms? No way in hell, unless it's a REALLY nice bathroom. Just whipping 'em out b/c it's natural? No, i mean, i bet cave people tried to nurse away from teh group, so why can't mothers be discreet or cover up a bit eh? animals try to nurse away from the herd, there's nothing wrong with nursing with a shawl to give you and your baby privacy, and keep the bond personal and sentimental

[Maloo]

Originally Posted by PhoenixAlive

So, you don't think that people with babies under the age of 6 months should be able to go to restaurants with their child? My husband and I couldn't afford a babysitter, and lived in a different city than our families, so we should never have been able to go out to eat? Can you not see how ridiculous this is?

Have you ever gone 6 whole months without eating out once?

If it's so ridiculous, then why do I know so many families who don't have a problem doing this?

And yes, I have gone for 6 months without going out somewhere to sit down and eat, really not a big deal.

For one new point as for why I disagree with breastfeeding in public, listening to it is really gross, especially while I'm eating. It's like going to eat with someone who makes a lot of noise when they eat. It's gross and you don't want to hear it, right? Same concept.

[Hdjdjdjduvieg]

Public breast feeding is completely inappropriate in my opinion. No one, be it at a restaurant, the workplace, or any public area, wants to see you whip out your boobs and start having your baby suck your nipples. Use a bottle if it is public. If not, wait until you get home. I find it rude that people actually do it in public.

[Brandon]

Surprised to see this thread still going . I'd just like to add a link that talks about breast feeding. By the way, it's completely satire.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AxZBV...64&feature=sub

Anyways, my opinion still stands: I think there's an appropriate time and place to breast feed.

[ThrashAttack]

Surprised to see this thread still going . I'd just like to add a link that talks about breast feeding. By the way, it's completely satire.

I agree, its time this was closed

[NonIndigenous]

I don't think I'd care much. Im just trying to imagine it. If something like that was happening in McDonalds maybe (for example), I probably wouldn't sit next to someone breastfeeding. But I wouldnt find it offensive and tell them to put it away.

Ive seen a lot of things that are "strange" to me, I don't care much anymore. I sort of respect people want to do their own thing, and it's their business. I sort of expect the same respect back though... for example (stupid example), if someone wants to pee fine, just dont do it on me, my car, or around my house.