Re: Abortion???
 

Re: Abortion???
 

I don't agree with abortion. Though under certain circumstances, I do agree with. If a woman was raped, then I think it's okay. They couldn't help the fact they were raped and ended up pregnant.

Now if they weren't raped it's a different story. If they felt mature enough to have sex they must face the consequences. Theres so many woman these days who have sex and say "If I get pregnant I'll get an abortion." Or "I'm using a condom or birthcontrol it's impossible for me to get pregnant" Thats not true at all. I think not even giving a baby a chance is cruel, if you can't take care of the baby, adopt it. There is so many loving families looking for a baby that can't have one of their own. I think adoption (Unless the woman was raped) is cruel and immature of a woman. Like I said earlier, if you think you're mature enough to have sex, you have to deal with the consequences.

Re: Abortion???
 

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Re: Abortion???
 

There are a lot of reasons a woman might not want to file a report - ESPECIALLY if the person who raped/harassed her was a personal acquaintance (as is often the case). There are stigmas attacked to rape victims that some people can't or don't want to go through.

As for lying about rape to get an abortion - if this were the only way to get a legal abortion, I'm sure incidents of illegitimate rape-excuse would skyrocket. Thus, just saying "abortion only legal in incidence of rape" is a very shortsighted and probably un-policable policy.

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liketheangel said: I agree. Assuming that adoption is the panacea to abortion is also very shortsighted. Just bringing a child into the world for the sake of bringing a child into the world can perhaps assuage your moral qualms but it doesn't guarantee this newborn a good life and it doesn't take into account the affects its birth will have on the mother and her relationships.

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The thing about abortion is that people tend to look at it as black and white. Murder vs. discontinuation of pregnancy.

Thing is: there are so many more factors than just the fetus. Can the woman financially, emotionally, physically survive a full-term pregnancy, let alone a birth and the possible care of a child? How will a birth affect the mother's relationships - such as with her lover, parents, support system, work.

Instead of wasting billions of dollars fighting over abortions legality we should be encouraging our government to explore why the abortion rates in their country are X high and what policies can be enacted to mitigate factors leading to abortion rates (e.g. high school pregnancies and sex ed programs that don't teach safe sex).

Re: Abortion???
 

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One possible reason women may not want to file the report is in about 80% of cases, women knew who the attacker was and 50% of cases was while in a relationship with the attacker prior to and during the attack. So, knowing this, along with rape trauma syndrome, where the acute phase has incredibly severe symptoms of anxiety and depression, women tend to not report. During this phase, they ask why they got attacked and since they more often than not knew the attacker, it's probably worse than any form of back-stabbing possible. Whether or not they'd file a report more often if they want an abortion I'm unsure on but there's a massive presumed population that don't file. Filing a report means they'd have to testify in court and that is something many are uncomfortable with because of the perceived humiliation and shame.

I don't think your ideas are practical at all because women who have been raped should be treated with empathy and care, especially in the days after the attack. They shouldn't be told while in a hospital recovering from physical injuries or elsewhere, "well, time to get a pregnancy test then you can file a report about it". There's a time to say to people to quit their whining and grow a backbone and then there's a time to show empathy. This case it's the latter.

Re: Abortion???
 

Re: Abortion???
 

It's not a baby, it's a fetus but semantics aside, although the baby and fetus are innocent life forms, one shouldn't have to go through with the pregnancy despite not wanting a baby at the present time. It's a shame when the contexts don't permit or make having the future baby too difficult but instead of carrying it for months and months, one should simply have the choice and the right to say they want to end it now. Adoption isn't always great, especially since orphanages last I heard are not the best of places in general plus many are getting shut down.

If the mother (and father) don't want it, then they can end it and the fetus got a chance at life. It wasn't a long life but it was one, so it fulfills your statement of "everyone deserves a chance at life".

And people including myself will say that is not possible because it does not constitute the legal view of murder (the one that matters), so you're creating your own definitions simply to support yourself and that are not legal terms.

Re: Abortion???
 

Re: Abortion???
 

Re: Abortion???
 

In my opinion, abortion is wrong. I'll never have one. And if someone I know has one, I'll never think of them in the same way. And no one is going to convince me that it's right or ok or any of that.

I have a son who was just a "bunch of cells" that would have been legal to have aborted. He's very much alive today... A living, breathing, happy little fella' that I would give my own life for. I'd never, ever take his life. Not for all the money, happiness, friends, freedom, anything in the world.

If you kill something that is alive (and yes, even if you consider it a "bunch of cells", those cells are still alive and growing all the time), you're a murderer.

And no one is going to change my mind. :)

Re: Abortion???
 

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A fetus is not a Baby yet, yes its a lving thing but a fetus cannot think or act like a newborn child can.

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I was talking about the Fetus. Yes i know its a living thing but if you cannot bring up a child in a safe and secure way then maybe killing it may be an option.

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Pregnancies can still result from (malfunctioned) protected sex. These women/men took preventative actions and still got pregnant. They obviously didn't want a child. How are you going to find out if women had unprotected sex? You can't judge one way or the other, just as with the rape issue.

As for your adoption comment, I've already addressed why that is NOT a cure-all for unwanted pregnancy.

Re: Abortion???
 

What if someone was a mother as you are and while pregnant, complications arose. Would you rather have one death or two deaths? Suppose this was you when you were pregnant, would you rather have the one death then try again later or have your life end alongside the fetus'?

I guess you're not a big fan of police who uphold and protect the society where you and your son are because after all, if need be, they do kill others. You can only be a murderer one way and that is the legal way. Legally, it's not murder. You can call it killing all you want but labeling an abortionist as a murderer due to his/her job is a flawed argument. Furthermore, your flawed argument allows for you to call a person who plucks a flower out of the ground a murderer, even if it's a child who for whatever silly reason does so. It makes no sense.

The point at which it becomes a baby, as far as I know is ambiguous and completely subjective unless you can find some credible scientific evidence to support your assertion. Otherwise it's a flimsy statement and I can just as easily say after 25.5 weeks it's a baby.

If you're not going to address the arguments presented and simply restate over and over what you believe, then that's not what a debate is. That's a broken record.

Re: Abortion???
 

My partners, Cousin gave birth about 2/3 months ago, her baby was only 25 weeks old born, she only weighed just about a 1lb, nearly 3 months on and she is 4lbs, babys can survive from 25's.

I don't think I'd ever have an abortion even if it was rapist's baby :/

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23 weeks? That is so amazing. What a little fighter! :)

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A flower, really? Come on, now.

I honestly don't know what I would do in that situation. And I hope it never comes down to something like that. If I found out I was pregnant today and heard of complications tomorrow... I would already consider that "bunch of cells" my son/daughter. That's like asking me if either me or my son had to die, which would I want to die... I can tell you right now that it most definitely wouldn't be him. He is my future. I realize that not everyone thinks that way, but that's just how I feel. I just wish people could realize what they're throwing away. I don't hate anyone that gets abortions... I just hate that precious little lives are being wasted.

I'm not really talking about medically necessary abortions. I'm talking about the "I got knocked up by accident and don't want the baby" kind of abortions.

Amen! Couldn't have said it better myself. There is nothing in the world that will change the fact is in murder.

And know what? I might be preggo right now, but If I am, I'm not going to have an abortion. No way.

That's fine, you can say what you believe. But just because someone says it is, doesn't make it true. You killed someone/something, It's murder. You can't say, "Oh well... hm hm, well Watson, we didn't exactly murder him we just kind of threw him down some flights of stairs. It was an accident and wasn't planned, It just happened dear Watson... It just happened."

I'd like to see someone on the stand for murder and say, "yeah, I shot him, but It wasn't murder." :hehe:

Re: Abortion???
 

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Well, it disgusts me that people think it is okay to force a woman to suffer the emotional and physical distress of pregnancy when she didn't have a choice in the matter. Rape is a horrible crime. Rapists force women to have sex with them because they want it. And you want to force women to have babies because you want them to. That's basically what you're saying. That women who are raped should have to have their rapist's baby because you think it's right. A rape lasts one night. And you want to force that woman to keep suffering for another nine months. Why is it that you think a woman's life is worth less than a fetus that can't survive on its own?

It's not murder because it isn't unlawful killing. We've already had this discussion. You can say it is killing, but you can't say murder because the law doesn't support you (in most places).



Also, everyone who is "pro-life" seems to continue to ignore everything that is said by everyone who isn't. You keep going on about accidental pregnancies and for the majority of this thread, we've been discussing rape, medically necessary abortions, or young girls who've never been taught about sex. You keep saying that adoption is the best path, ignoring the fact that kids who are adopted often feel unwanted and like they don't belong or grow up in horrible foster homes. You keep saying that a fetus deserves a chance at life, whilst forgetting that you want to take a woman's life away at the same time. If you're going to continue to argue pro-life, then be willing to argue against all the points rather than just continuing with "it's murder"; that argument is getting kinda old.

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Thank you. It seems like non of the "pro life" arguers have addressed the issues other than "it is murder".

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If i got a girl knocked up during a one night stand i wouldent want it becouse i wouldent be ready for a child. Dont get me wrong i would like a kid but only in a few years or so when i could support one.

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Read what you said: "If you kill something that is alive (and yes, even if you consider it a "bunch of cells", those cells are still alive and growing all the time), you're a murderer." It does include a live plant.

In that post I was quoting you failed to specify what kind but fair enough on your view.

... . I'm saying it's true because it's what the law says, not what I believe. There have been numerous debates in law about this and the center point is two-fold. First, both sides accept the legal definition of murder and the various forms of it. Second, whether a fetus is a person, not a human or lump of cells but a person. Your posts aren't accepting either part and so this is why I'm saying your view makes no sense as you're arguing on a completely different plane.

For your scenario, read this on involuntary manslaughter. It also can help you figure out what murder is so you can use the proper legal definition of it before attempting to say abortion is or isn't murder. It's been explained plenty of times and you ignore it each time so maybe the link can make it clear.
http://legal-dictionary.thefreedicti...y+manslaughter

Re: Abortion???
 

Okay, I've been trying really, really hard to stay away from this thread, because I've done this debate a few times on TH and it just gets too frustrating. But here goes.

Pregnancy is 9 months. Women who are raped suffer for a lot longer than that anyways. After your body is violated, nothing is ever the same again. Without exception, women who are raped NEED to be in psychotherapy for years after a rape, whether or not they want to be, because of the heightened suicide rate of raped women.

No-one said that a woman's life is worth less than a fetus's, and if a woman is impregnated by a rapist, her pregnancy should be monitored not only by an obstetrician, but by a therapist or psychologist as well. If it is found that the woman is seriously suicidal due to the rape and/or pregnancy, then it should be terminated. Although a tragedy, it is better that one life end than two.

Otherwise, yes. I condone a raped woman completing the pregnancy. 9 months is such a short time to give in order to allow a baby to grow to have the chance at a full life.



I am pro-life, and I'm going to address these issues for you now, since you seem to think no-one else on my side of the debate has.

I fully condone medically necessary abortions. Again, it is better for one to die than two. I'm sure that most of the pro-lifers on this site would agree with me. However, if there was a chance that my baby would live, even if I died, I would want the doctors to save her. She was everything to me, even before she was born, and I can't stand the idea of her not being in this world. Of course, in this circumstance, I would never force my feelings on another mother.

The adoption issue is a whole other debate. I myself was adopted at the age of 1 and raised by a Roman Catholic Priest and his sister. I don't harbor any ill feelings towards my biological parents. I love my family, and I feel special because I was chosen to be a part of it. Because my parents had to work so hard to get me, they networked with several other families who adopted children. I don't know a single one of them who feels unloved or unwanted. I think that these feelings are projected by non-adopted people and it is a media-driven view of adoption fostered by Orphan Annie and such characters.

There is a shortage of adoptable babies in Canada and the USA at the moment, which is why anyone who wishes to adopt has to consider adopting internationally. More adoptable children here at home would make life easier for the millions of willing parents who are unable to conceive a child.

I posted in a previous abortion debate the statistics of the foster home system and how it works, referenced from a government website. I don't know how to retrieve my post, so I'll just summarize that most children who enter the foster care system also leave it within one year. Most children in the foster care system are in fact fostered by a family member, and not some group home institution.

You say that by asking that women not terminate their pregnancies to save the life of the unborn baby they carry we I don't believe that anyone ever said that. Pregnancy does not cause a woman to die, in most cases. And as I said before, I condone medically necessary abortions. Most women can go about their lives during pregnancy, interrupted only by the occasional doctor's appointment. So I really don't see your point here.

Re: Abortion???
 

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I can answer this. Pro-lifers believe that because unless there are medical problems a fetus will undoubtedly become a human being (which really is true). So therefore, they equate terminating a pregnancy and forcibly halting the growth of the baby with killing it. Now, for most people, killing unless it is an act of self-defense is wrong and considered murder. Unless the pregnancy has severe medical complications which risk the mother's life, there is no self defense in abortion. Continuing with that reasoning, unless the mother's life is in risk, terminating a pregnancy is murder and should be illegal.

Does that help you to better understand the pro-life view?

Re: Abortion???
 

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Would you stand aside while thousands of babies just out of the womb were being killed? Would you say to a mother who asked for this to be done, "Well, that's okay. Its your choice and making killing your baby illegal would be taking away that choice" ?

To pro-lifers there is no difference between a baby outside the womb, and a baby inside the womb. So, we can't stand by and allow what we perceive as murder to go on without trying to have it legally stopped.

I'm sorry if I didn't explain properly, but do you understand?

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Would you also allow them to kill their babies after they were born?

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I know that women who are raped require years of psychotherapy etc. My point was that they go through heaps of physical and emotional trauma based on one night. So making them go through an additional 9 months of having to relive that and remember that every time you think about the baby you are carrying would make it so much worse. Don't you think that having a constant physical reminder would make it impossible to recover? Therefore setting back their recovery time. I'm not saying that is true of all women who get pregnant via rape; I admire those who are willing to carry through with the pregnancy regardless. But I certainly wouldn't think badly of those who didn't want to and I wouldn't force that emotional suffering on them.

Also, what if the woman's rapist is still around? And she knows that he will get violent when he finds out that she is pregnant? Ignoring the "she should report him etc.", since some girls aren't willing to do that and it doesn't always result in a conviction, is abortion okay then? Or would you rather that she risk getting beaten and miscarrying anyway?

Okay. But many of the other pro-lifers here continue to say that abortion is murder. That means, based on their statements, that they believe a woman is committing murder when she has a medically necessary abortion. And making abortion illegal would be killing women who need it. I brought up the point because a lot of pro-lifers contradict themselves, particularly on this point.

But that is only your experience. I've seen many others on TH who say that they feel like they don't belong and don't truly know who they are because they don't know who their birth parents are.

And I think adoption could be good for some people, depending on the circumstances. If a teenager, like 17 or 18, got pregnant and could carry through with the pregnancy and put the baby up for adoption, I think that would be great. But I would never force anyone to go through with the pregnancy if they felt like they couldn't. Some people know that if they went through with the pregnancy, they would want to keep the baby, and wouldn't be able to support it properly. Having an abortion instead means that that child doesn't have to grow up below the poverty line.

(Note: what I say here mostly relates to women who are raped or have their pregnancy "forced" on them in some way)

I understand "life" as more than just the physical act of existing. And women can not just "go about their lives" while they are pregnant. I posted about this earlier. Morning sickness can be so bad that women have to skip work altogether. If they don't have the support of the father, they risk financial troubles, losing their job, having to give up their social lives for a child that they didn't want. If they were raped and their husband/boyfriend can't deal with their partner carrying someone else's child, then they can lose their partner. I already mentioned the emotional trauma for women who were raped. Young girls who get pregnant through lack of sex education (which isn't their fault, btw) can get kicked out of home.