Triggering: Abortion???

[L'espoir]

Originally Posted by PhoenixAlive

Would you also allow them to kill their babies after they were born?

No, because it's a different issue and that really is murder (unlike abortion, which isn't because abortion is legal)

[PhoenixAlive]

Originally Posted by Dement

No, because it's a different issue and that really is murder (unlike abortion, which isn't because abortion is legal)

And this is the point that I was trying to make to you. To people who believe as I do, there is no difference.

[footfoot]

Originally Posted by PhoenixAlive

Pregnancy is 9 months. Women who are raped suffer for a lot longer than that anyways. After your body is violated, nothing is ever the same again. Without exception, women who are raped NEED to be in psychotherapy for years after a rape, whether or not they want to be, because of the heightened suicide rate of raped women.

No-one said that a woman's life is worth less than a fetus's, and if a woman is impregnated by a rapist, her pregnancy should be monitored not only by an obstetrician, but by a therapist or psychologist as well. If it is found that the woman is seriously suicidal due to the rape and/or pregnancy, then it should be terminated. Although a tragedy, it is better that one life end than two.

Otherwise, yes. I condone a raped woman completing the pregnancy. 9 months is such a short time to give in order to allow a baby to grow to have the chance at a full life.

9 months is a very long time to carry a child as a result of rape. It forces one to not only mentally but physically live with the consequences of sexual violation. Not to mention that it isn't like any woman can just suddenly interrupt her life for a pregnancy. It affects work, relationships (what would her lover, parents feel?), as well as significantly her own future and present mental health. Thus, in effect, forcing a woman to carry an unwanted child by rape is cruel and unusual punishment two times over.

I fully condone medically necessary abortions. Again, it is better for one to die than two. I'm sure that most of the pro-lifers on this site would agree with me. However, if there was a chance that my baby would live, even if I died, I would want the doctors to save her. She was everything to me, even before she was born, and I can't stand the idea of her not being in this world. Of course, in this circumstance, I would never force my feelings on another mother.

If you won't force your feelings on another woman, why would you in any situation? It is fine if you believe abortion to be morally wrong, but it isn't fair to force this moral on another woman. She might find it morally reprehensible for mothers to smoke or drink with children in the womb but she can't legally stop them from doing it.

The adoption issue is a whole other debate.

There is a shortage of adoptable babies in Canada and the USA at the moment, which is why anyone who wishes to adopt has to consider adopting internationally. More adoptable children here at home would make life easier for the millions of willing parents who are unable to conceive a child.

I posted in a previous abortion debate the statistics of the foster home system and how it works, referenced from a government website. I don't know how to retrieve my post, so I'll just summarize that most children who enter the foster care system also leave it within one year. Most children in the foster care system are in fact fostered by a family member, and not some group home institution.

First: Sure there may be a shortage of BABIES to adopt but there are half a million foster kids in the system. Kids. Every year a child is in the system is another percent lost in their chance to be adopted because people don't want to adopt broken children or those they can't bond with (harder to do with children who have been in the system for a while).

The answer to this "shortage" is not "put more in the system!!". That's like feeding the monster instead of banishing it. We need to encourage people to adopt older children. Need to put into place systems that help kids adjust to life outside of the system so they are more adoptable.

SECOND : I do not believe that bolded statistic to be entirely true. Perhaps it is true for children under the age for 3, but it is certainly not true for the older children (the bulk of the foster care system is made up of 5-15 year olds). I think that statistic is probably confounded by children hopping to and from homes and in and out of the system (unstable biological homes).

Let's also not forget the 20,000 kids that age out of the system each year. These kids are often just left to their own devices when they turn 18. "Several foster care alumni studies show that without a lifelong connection to a caring adult, these older youth are often left vulnerable to a host of adverse situations" (link)

That is all to say that the foster care system should not be a go-to solution to any problem. For those people concerned about childrens' lives, why don't we find ways to help the lives of LIVING children before we spend billions of dollars on fetuses, which legally (before a certain point) are not considered living despite what some may personally feel?

You say that by asking that women not terminate their pregnancies to save the life of the unborn baby they carry we I don't believe that anyone ever said that. Pregnancy does not cause a woman to die, in most cases. And as I said before, I condone medically necessary abortions. Most women can go about their lives during pregnancy, interrupted only by the occasional doctor's appointment. So I really don't see your point here.

This has already been responded to by a poster, but i'll reiterate that pregnancy can be a humongous obstacle and inconvenience to a woman. She can lose her job (especially in this economy), not have the financial means to support a pregnancy in pre or post natal care, it affects her relationships (pressure that if she has the baby her lover will not support it), and generally it is a mental and physical load that some women can not or are not in the position to take.

[flippinmayonnaise]

I am not an incubator. Women are not incubators. We as a society halt the progress of living cells constantly, whether it be during the creation of the egg whites you munch on for breakfast or the antibiotics you chug to clear out an infection. Nothing supersedes medicine and health and good sense, so if one woman, or one couple make a decision to have a baby, that is fine. However, if one woman, or one couple decide to terminate a fetus, that is as acceptable. I consider myself willing to listen in almost all instances, but I have to qualify that statement with "almost" because of this instance: there is no reason without basis in emotion or religion (or in other words, areas of illogic) that is more valid than the right to choose for oneself how to treat one's own body.

I am certainly open to hear what others have to say, but I am definitely not one to control what someone other than myself decides to do with her body.

[L'espoir]

Originally Posted by PhoenixAlive

And this is the point that I was trying to make to you. To people who believe as I do, there is no difference.

Here is a bit of food for thought then, it's a point that I remember coming up a while ago...

Basically, some people think abortion is wrong because the cells (or whatever they are, I'm not great at the biology side of it) would otherwise grow into a person.. there is one problem with this though: If you go with this idea then that would mean you should never use contraception because in effect you are stopping and killing the sperm that could become a life. I'm not sure if I'm explaining this well but I hope it gets the point across

[forfrosne]

Originally Posted by Dement

Here is a bit of food for thought then, it's a point that I remember coming up a while ago...

Basically, some people think abortion is wrong because the cells (or whatever they are, I'm not great at the biology side of it) would otherwise grow into a person.. there is one problem with this though: If you go with this idea then that would mean you should never use contraception because in effect you are stopping and killing the sperm that could become a life. I'm not sure if I'm explaining this well but I hope it gets the point across

That's a pretty awesome point.

I think it depends how long on you are, and the circumstances. If you forgot to use contraception, tough luck, deal with it. If you're the victim of rape, then of course if you want it, you can have an abortion.

[L'espoir]

Originally Posted by RainOnMe

That's a pretty awesome point.

I think it depends how long on you are, and the circumstances. If you forgot to use contraception, tough luck, deal with it. If you're the victim of rape, then of course if you want it, you can have an abortion.

Thanks

As for your point, how would you know who is telling the truth or not though? Some people would lie about being raped, even though it's awful. What about people whose contraception failed? It wasn't their fault, should they be able to have one? What about people who haven't been taught sex education properly? They didn't understand so it wasn't their fault, should they be able to? Do you get my point, if you had abortion available only certain circumstances then it would be hard to decide which would be the right ones and once you did have some, people could easily lie about it...

[ThrashAttack]

If you forgot to use contraception, tough luck, deal with it

forget that. My future gf would look after it, id dissapear and get on with my own life. Or i would convince her to have it aborted.

[EmisaurusRex]

i'm pro-life, but i'm not going to judge someone who has an abortion or people who are pro-choice or anything like that.
and, by pro-life, i don't mean making it illegal because i realize that the last time that happened a lot of women died doing their own abortions. i don't wish for them to go about it in an unsafe way...i realize that making it illegal isn't going to stop people from having them.
and, i've never been in a situation like that...soo...i guess i can't really say for sure since i've never been there.
but, i don't think i'd ever have an abortion, even if i was raped. and maybe that seems bogus, i just...i don't think i could do that. it isn't like my egg asked to me fertilized or anything and become a baby. not that i would have asked to be raped...but...blah...i'm not making much sense.
anyways...i'm against it, but...i'm not going to judge or anything. everyone is entitled to their opinion.

[forfrosne]

Originally Posted by Dement

Thanks

As for your point, how would you know who is telling the truth or not though? Some people would lie about being raped, even though it's awful. What about people whose contraception failed? It wasn't their fault, should they be able to have one? What about people who haven't been taught sex education properly? They didn't understand so it wasn't their fault, should they be able to? Do you get my point, if you had abortion available only certain circumstances then it would be hard to decide which would be the right ones and once you did have some, people could easily lie about it...

As is the situation right now unfortunately. Yes, I get your point, but I do stick with what I said. It should be based on a case-to-case basis.

[shimmeringfaerie]

Originally Posted by ThrashAttack

forget that. My future gf would look after it, id dissapear and get on with my own life. Or i would convince her to have it aborted.

Forcing a woman to have an abortion is just as bad, if not worse, than not giving her the option of abortion. And as for disappearing and getting on with your own life, there is a little thing called 'child support'. I feel sorry for the women who get pregnant and then have their pathetic, immature partners run out on them because they won't take responsibility for their own actions.

Originally Posted by onepuzzlepiece

i'm pro-life, but i'm not going to judge someone who has an abortion or people who are pro-choice or anything like that.
and, by pro-life, i don't mean making it illegal because i realize that the last time that happened a lot of women died doing their own abortions. i don't wish for them to go about it in an unsafe way...i realize that making it illegal isn't going to stop people from having them.
and, i've never been in a situation like that...soo...i guess i can't really say for sure since i've never been there.
but, i don't think i'd ever have an abortion, even if i was raped. and maybe that seems bogus, i just...i don't think i could do that. it isn't like my egg asked to me fertilized or anything and become a baby. not that i would have asked to be raped...but...blah...i'm not making much sense.
anyways...i'm against it, but...i'm not going to judge or anything. everyone is entitled to their opinion.

Honestly, your point of view sounds more like you are pro-choice. I also don't think I would ever get an abortion, but having never been in the position, it's hard to say for sure. But since you don't want to make it illegal and think that women should have the choice, that's definitely more pro-choice ideas, even if you are pro-life for yourself.

[emma01]

Originally Posted by Dement

Thanks

As for your point, how would you know who is telling the truth or not though? Some people would lie about being raped, even though it's awful. What about people whose contraception failed? It wasn't their fault, should they be able to have one? What about people who haven't been taught sex education properly? They didn't understand so it wasn't their fault, should they be able to? Do you get my point, if you had abortion available only certain circumstances then it would be hard to decide which would be the right ones and once you did have some, people could easily lie about it...

If you lie about being raped, you would somehow have to describe a racist, and if it turned out you lied about being raped, the cost would be huge and you would get in a lot of trouble, it would be illegal! It would just be stupid!

[shimmeringfaerie]

Originally Posted by emma01

If you lie about being raped, you would somehow have to describe a racist, and if it turned out you lied about being raped, the cost would be huge and you would get in a lot of trouble, it would be illegal! It would just be stupid!

If a woman was desperate though, she would do it. It's entirely possible. I agree that no one should lie about being raped, but I know that it would happen if that was the only way you could get an abortion. And how could you prosecute a woman for lying when she has been put in a position where she feels that she has no other choice?

[ThrashAttack]

Over here in the Uk child support its not compulsery i dont think.

[emma01]

Originally Posted by ShimmeringFaerie

If a woman was desperate though, she would do it. It's entirely possible. I agree that no one should lie about being raped, but I know that it would happen if that was the only way you could get an abortion. And how could you prosecute a woman for lying when she has been put in a position where she feels that she has no other choice?

if someone is raped, an investigation is led (now im not sure if that is the case where you live, but here it is (NZ) ) and they would not close a case like that, rapists are usually caught, and its not often the case is closed unsolved, people who lie about being raped would be caught!

[Melody Pond]

Originally Posted by ThrashAttack

Over here in the Uk child support its not compulsery i dont think.

Yep it is...

The CSA works alongside the Child Maintenance Enforcement Commission (CMEC) and has the power to enforce maintenance payments directly through the parent’s employer, by freezing assets and forcing the sale of property. The non resident parent can also be imprisoned for failure to pay maintenance.

http://www.childsupportlaws.co.uk/wh...d-support.html

[ThrashAttack]

I knew that...

I think its pretty bs though, fathers should have the choice to pay or not.

[shimmeringfaerie]

Originally Posted by emma01

if someone is raped, an investigation is led (now im not sure if that is the case where you live, but here it is (NZ) ) and they would not close a case like that, rapists are usually caught, and its not often the case is closed unsolved, people who lie about being raped would be caught!

How do you know that rapists are usually caught? Do you have figures to support that? And I understand that an investigation would be carried out, but a woman could still get around it. She could say that she was drugged at a party and doesn't remember anything. She could say he grabbed her from behind in the park near her house and she never saw his face. I'm sorry, but I think it's a bit naive to think that people would never lie and would get caught every time if they did. It's just not how the world works.

Originally Posted by ThrashAttack

I knew that...

I think its pretty bs though, fathers should have the choice to pay or not.

Are you kidding? You choose to have unprotected sex with a woman and then just leave her to support a child on her own? It takes two people to have sex. Why on earth should the woman have to take all of the responsibility?

[ThrashAttack]

Are you kidding? You choose to have unprotected sex with a woman and then just leave her to support a child on her own?

Its called looking after no 1

[Lotus Eater]

When it comes down to things, I think I wouldn't ever be able to get an abortion.

I do agree that it is wrong to put an end to a life but we would have to consider a number of factors and pressures here. Family and parental pressures would have to be taken into consideration. Sometimes it's a matter of making a choice between your family and/or the child (i.e. parents may kick you out if you keep it. I know this may not sound like a huge deal to some of you who would come out and say that they would just leave but others may take it harshly). Some may not be able to support a child. Others may not want a child to begin with or may fall pregnant as a result of rape. There are many factors to take into consideration here.

I don't support abortion but I do think that it is not up to us to judge anyone who has had to consider it. You may say something now, but when you're in that situation, there are so many fears and pressures, you're going to make the decision that seems best at the time. Or one out of fear. Everyone reacts to situations differently. Some have more outspoken consciences. Others may be helpless and pressured into having an abortion.

Many women who have undergone abortion live to regret their decision for years to come. Imagine having to live with that guilt and regret for the rest of your life. Imagine wanting to keep your child but being forced to give it up. It's bound to haunt you for the rest of your life.

It's really not an issue anyone can understand until they've been in that situation. At the end of the day, it's a mother's choice.

[shimmeringfaerie]

Originally Posted by ThrashAttack

Its called looking after no 1

Actually, it's called immaturity and selfishness. Most people grow out of the 'only thinking about themselves' stage. In fact, most people probably wouldn't appreciate their friends not caring about them or thinking of them as equals, let alone their partners. And I can't imagine you would be saying the same thing if you were in a position where the mother of your child left you to bring up the baby.

[ThrashAttack]

You dont even know me so you cant talk.

[shimmeringfaerie]

Okay, firstly, I don't need to know you to be able to comment on what you say. And secondly, it actually seems like you are just saying stuff like that to stir people up, so I'm not going to indulge that anymore. Since I saw a post of yours less than a week ago saying that you would be willing to work with a girl who might be pregnant with your kid, it seems strange that you would turn around now and say you wouldn't pay child support.

[ThrashAttack]

Ok, first of all get off your high horse and come back to the real world , secondly from reading what everyone else has said since then i have changed my mind about the whole thing and thirdly i am not doing this to stir people up.

Its my opinion so dont even try to change it...

[footfoot]

Originally Posted by ThrashAttack

Ok, first of all get off your high horse and come back to the real world , secondly from reading what everyone else has said since then i have changed my mind about the whole thing and thirdly i am not doing this to stir people up.

Its my opinion so dont even try to change it...

Wait, what could someone have said to change your mind to NOT want to support a woman pregnant with your child?

I'm not trying to change your opinion, I just want to know what you base it on.

[ThrashAttack]

All the hard work, everything about it

[forfrosne]

Originally Posted by ThrashAttack

All the hard work, everything about it

Sorry, but that makes absolutely no sense. Are you saying that you don't agree with abortion because it's hard work?

[L'espoir]

Originally Posted by RainOnMe

Sorry, but that makes absolutely no sense. Are you saying that you don't agree with abortion because it's hard work?

He is explaining why he wouldn't want to stick by a girlfriend if she got pregnant and didn't want to abort it

[ThrashAttack]

Sorry, but that makes absolutely no sense. Are you saying that you don't agree with abortion because it's hard work?

I never even said i dident agree with abortion, so i dont even know where you got that from pal.

[Xujhan]

Originally Posted by RainOnMe

I think it depends how long on you are, and the circumstances. If you forgot to use contraception, tough luck, deal with it. If you're the victim of rape, then of course if you want it, you can have an abortion.

Do you realize how terrible it is to use a child as punishment for irresponsibility? Forcing parents to raise a child they don't want almost guarantees that child a shitty life. The only excuse to be pro-life is because of moral concerns regarding abortion itself, never because of some judgment on the character of the potential parents.

[forfrosne]

Originally Posted by Xujhan

Do you realize how terrible it is to use a child as punishment for irresponsibility? Forcing parents to raise a child they don't want almost guarantees that child a shitty life. The only excuse to be pro-life is because of moral concerns regarding abortion itself, never because of some judgment on the character of the potential parents.

I've been thinking about it a bit since then, and I've changed a bit. I don't really see why you can't have an abortion if you want one. But I still think you should do the moral thing and keep it, then just give it to another family, maybe some that can't have kids.

[Xujhan]

Originally Posted by RainOnMe

I've been thinking about it a bit since then, and I've changed a bit. I don't really see why you can't have an abortion if you want one. But I still think you should do the moral thing and keep it, then just give it to another family, maybe some that can't have kids.

I'd be much more inclined to agree with that if the adoption agencies were short on children and the world population weren't already staggeringly high. Until those things change though, I don't see adoption as any kind of morally superior alternative.

[ThrashAttack]

Abortion should be there if you need it.

Oh and my views about me not wanting to be there arnt going to change and no one can convince me to change.

[Ghost On The Highway]

Originally Posted by Dement

Here is a bit of food for thought then, it's a point that I remember coming up a while ago...

Basically, some people think abortion is wrong because the cells (or whatever they are, I'm not great at the biology side of it) would otherwise grow into a person.. there is one problem with this though: If you go with this idea then that would mean you should never use contraception because in effect you are stopping and killing the sperm that could become a life. I'm not sure if I'm explaining this well but I hope it gets the point across

I've heard that argument several times before, and I'm pretty sure it's the basis behind the Catholic church's stance against contraception. In my opinion there is a difference, namely that contraception prevents pregnancy from ever starting while abortion disrupts a process that, left unaltered, would result in the creation of a human life. The union of sperm and egg is a life-producing process, each component on its own cannot create life. Taking this to the extreme, it would be a "sin" to have sex in the week after a woman's period, because there is no chance that conception may occur.

[Xujhan]

Originally Posted by Ghost On The Highway

I've heard that argument several times before, and I'm pretty sure it's the basis behind the Catholic church's stance against contraception. In my opinion there is a difference, namely that contraception prevents pregnancy from ever starting while abortion disrupts a process that, left unaltered, would result in the creation of a human life. The union of sperm and egg is a life-producing process, each component on its own cannot create life. Taking this to the extreme, it would be a "sin" to have sex in the week after a woman's period, because there is no chance that conception may occur.

But sex is also a process which, left unaltered, would result in human life. By extension, every month a woman goes without trying to get pregnant would make them equally guilty. It's just drawing another arbitrary line in the chain of causality; at conception, instead of childbirth (or elsewhere).

[footfoot]

Originally Posted by Ghost On The Highway

I've heard that argument several times before, and I'm pretty sure it's the basis behind the Catholic church's stance against contraception. In my opinion there is a difference, namely that contraception prevents pregnancy from ever starting while abortion disrupts a process that, left unaltered, would result in the creation of a human life. The union of sperm and egg is a life-producing process, each component on its own cannot create life. Taking this to the extreme, it would be a "sin" to have sex in the week after a woman's period, because there is no chance that conception may occur.

Not to mention, if I may quote from Legally Blonde the Broadway Musical: "All masturbatory emissions could be called reckless abandonment".

Originally Posted by ThrashAttack

All the hard work, everything about it

Morally, how do you justify dropping a responsibility to a child/woman because it is too much work? I completely understand how having a child at 18 is a lot of responsibility, too much for a lot of teenagers, and why one would turn to adoption or even abortion, but I guess the flippancy with which you treat the subject is rubbing me the wrong way. I suppose part of it is that women can't afford to be flippant about this issue. Either abortion is legal or women are forced to carry through with pregnancies and their consequences while their sexual cohorts get away clean (of course, even with abortion there are physical, mental burdens to be had).

[FlyingTrue]

Just saw this on the front page of CNN's website. A new major controversy in Mexico right now relating to this argument. A ten-year-old girl was raped by her stepfather and is now 17.5 weeks pregnant as a result. What to do here?

http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/americ...ion/index.html

[footfoot]

Originally Posted by FlyingTrue

Just saw this on the front page of CNN's website. A new major controversy in Mexico right now relating to this argument. A ten-year-old girl was raped by her stepfather and is now 17.5 weeks pregnant as a result. What to do here?

http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/americ...ion/index.html

We've already debated the heck out of whether abortion is ok when a girl is raped or underage, but I think another issue this article points out is accessibility:

The article insinuates that the girl was not informed of her abortion rights purposely until past the date at which she could legally have one. The time-sensitivity of such issues is very important and can be used, such as here, against a woman/victim.

In cases such as rape and underage pregnancies I think especially time limits should be extended.

[ThrashAttack]

I completely understand how having a child at 18 is a lot of responsibility, too much for a lot of teenagers, and why one would turn to adoption or even abortion, but I guess the flippancy with which you treat the subject is rubbing me the wrong way.

I want to get on with my own life thanks, i feel the kid would be in better hands with my gf and her family.

1. I dont even look after myself properly ( ie i cant live on my own yet)
2. Im 18 but i act like im 8
3. I have no idea how to look after a kid

So when you see it from my point of view you will understand that it would be best for me not to see the kid and for it to live with my future gf.

[footfoot]

Originally Posted by ThrashAttack

I want to get on with my own life thanks, i feel the kid would be in better hands with my gf and her family.

1. I dont even look after myself properly ( ie i cant live on my own yet)
2. Im 18 but i act like im 8
3. I have no idea how to look after a kid

So when you see it from my point of view you will understand that it would be best for me not to see the kid and for it to live with my future gf.

I don't see how all that doesn't apply to an 18 year old girl. Except, as the mother, it's easier to dump the child on her (legally and otherwise).