Re: what is so wrong about gay marriage???
 

Of course. I was in no way suggesting that all christians are against homosexuality. I was just pointing out that christians are the majority in the US and there are a lot of them who oppose gay marriage, which is why it would be very hard for a politician to succeed if they publicly supported gay marriage.


That's interesting. At least she believes in equal rights though, which is the most important thing. Was she raised with religion?

Re: what is so wrong about gay marriage???
 

As I mentioned before, a lot of the time a person's view on gay marriage or any issue is due to various cultural/societal factors, beliefs.

Re: what is so wrong about gay marriage???
 

Re: what is so wrong about gay marriage???
 

I think there is absolutely nothing wrong with gay marriage.
In actual fact my gay best friend (yes, stereotypical i know lol - he is also extremely camp) got engaged a few days ago :D

Re: what is so wrong about gay marriage???
 

Absolutely nothing is wrong with it.

Re: what is so wrong about gay marriage???
 

what do you mean by that??? cause i have this one friend who is always trying to convince me that im not realy bi,im just "possessed by some demon" who is aking me act this way and i kinda feel like your trying to say the same thing she is,that we are the way we are but we dont trully want to be,is that what your trying to say? if not sorry i mistook you.

Re: what is so wrong about gay marriage???
 

The pursuit of happiness is just better wording for the right to own property. The constitution also gives more power to the states, and leaves itself open to interputation. It's a complex topic, that I don't feel like explaining, but simply, if the states say no to gay marriage the federal government can't force it upon them .If you wish to know more about it, pm me.

I think what Holly meant was that some people are homosexual, but they don't want to be, they don't think it is right to be, so they go against who they really are. They try not to give into the urges to do the acts, to honor their God[s].

And Holly, I agree with you on that. I respect those people, although I could never do that, but I have the upmost respect for them.

Re: what is so wrong about gay marriage???
 

Majority of people say it because of religion. One thing I would like to point out though, is one argument is that people would just marry their best friend for the tax benefits. Though I don't agree with it, this is simply an argument I've heard.

Re: what is so wrong about gay marriage???
 

What? How would anyone think that makes sense...straight people could probably come up with and execute the same plan.

Re: what is so wrong about gay marriage???
 

Hm. Let me find a source that actually explains it. Since I too think it's stupid, I don't really know how to argue the point well. Nor do I see the side well enough to explain. So I'll edit it in in a moment.

The best thing I can find right now at two in the morning is this :

"It would weaken the definition and respect for the institution of marriage. The 50 percent divorce rate has already weakened the definition of marriage. We shouldn't be taking further steps to define what marriage is. A law allowing gay marriage would increase the number of joke or non-serious marriages, such as a couple of friends who want to save on taxes. Marriage is the most sacred institution in this country, and every society considers it the joining of a man and a woman. It makes biological sense since only a man and woman can pro-create."

Source : http://www.balancedpolitics.org/same_sex_marriages.htm

(Btw, balancedpolitics.org is amazing for finding both sides of an argument)

Re: what is so wrong about gay marriage???
 

no offense. but do you honestly think god will let you on to heaven on earth if you only follow some of what he has said. its like reading a series of books. if you only read the 2nd and 4th then you will be pretty lost. right? same goes for the bible. and it only makes sense to follow it all.
god did not make gay marriage a commandment because he hates gay people. he made it because he made us not for that purpose. if he's our father it only makes sense to uphold his ruling.

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Yeah, if you read the entire Bible, parrticularly the New Testament, you'd get that Jesus was all about the forgiveness. Oh, and as Paul pointed out, Chhristians aren't under the laws of the Old Testament. No one can follow them perfectly, and thats the point. You need to take in the whole message of the Bible, not just rule upon rule. Forgetting the gay stuff for a minute, you seem to be missing a lot of the message.

Going back to the gay stuff, you say God hates gay people? Why? Assuming gay is a sin for a minute (though I'll talk about that after), I assume you are suggesting God hates gay people because they are sinners? So God doesn't love the world (sinners)? So John 3:16 is wrong? He didn't send his son to save sinners out of love? Jesus came to condemn the world? Sin actually is something everyone has, so God must hate everyone? Jesus didnt hang out or talk to the tax collectors, the prostitutes, and the socially considered 'sinners'? You aren't a sinner that God hates? Have you read the first 2 chapters in Romans? Is there nothing on that list applicable to you? You've ALWAYS obeyed your parents? According to the Bible, all have sinned, which includes you. You are a sinner, and have (and will again) fallen short of the glory of God.

For the record, a homosexual person is a fairly modern concept, from the last few hundred years. People in Bible times did not have sexua identities such as gay or straight. The Bible holds no mention of an orientation, if it does, its a bad translation of those verses. The Bible at the very most makes 5 comments on some form of male same-sex behaviour. Going through these briefly, 2 are found in Leviticus. Paul dispels the law for Christians, so at max these are influencial verses, not binding rules. Along with this, they are likely to be specfic to anal intercourse, due to the idea of lying with a man, like with a woman (implies intercourse). There is evidence its contextual, and purpose linked to cleaniness, which would make sense in such a time. Its also linked to the Jewish people trying to dustinguish themselves from the surrounding nations. The word that we have in english, abomination, is from a word that suggests something that was made wrong, but not inheritantly evil. This rule was only for the Jews. It also doesn't cover lesbianism. The Sages later went on to make man made laws against lesbianism, without the death penalty, because God never covered it in the actual law.

Next verse is in Romans 1. Its highly likely it is a reference to some form of orgy/idoltry practice, which was common in those times. Again, it only explicitly mention male same sex behaviour, and is likely to only be anal intercourse. The reference of women going against nature was read by the early church as women using strap ons to penetrate men. A man being penetrated lowered his status in society, its clear way in this ociety why you shouldnt do that whilst loving your neighbour. And if you keep reading into Romans 2, it starts off with 'Therefore'. These two books were basically tell the Jews to stop being so self righteous over the gentiles.

Then 1 Corithians, and in some Bibles, a vice list I think in Timothy? (I'm focusing on the Corinthians one though). Paul makes a vice list, which contextually appears to be able exploitation. One word he used is often translated as something like 'homosexual offenders'. The word he used was a combination word, which I think literally translates to 'male' and 'beds'. In historical context, and the theme of exploitation, one plausable explanation is this discusses camites. Boys older men had sex with. This is something most would disagree with. Paul didnt use common terms of the day that existed for adults who had sex with adults of the same sex. Also back to the penetration degrading the bottom man, would again have some explanation if it was a reference to adults.

None of this really comments on gay marriage, I just felt like pointing out, its not as clear cut as your preacher may make it sound. And at the end of the day, its between the gay and God, to decide how to take this information. And essentially, Biblically you can at the most only condemn sexually active gays, even if you are very conservative. You cant spin the Bible to condemn celibate gays (unless you mention lust, but that isn't a unique issue to gays, it was actually mentionned explicitly with straights. So back to this idea 'God hate gays', I see no groundings for your statement.

As a strong Christian, coming to the realisation I liked girls (regardless of my gender on TH, I'm technically a girl who likes girls) was one of the most horrific times of my life. I spent a year in prayer, reading the Bible (not just the gay verses), and wishing it wasn't happening to me, before I found any amount of peace. The point of this paragraph is more in reference to your comments elsewhere, where you claim I chose this. I can tell you, whatever other people have done. I didn't choose this. I wouldnt have, even if I wasn't religious at the time. Why? Social discrimination, homophobic abuse (including actual violence), the knowledge my Baptist conservative Pastor of a father would disown me, unequal rights, and on a more superficial note, getting a bf would just be so much easier :p I'm useless with girls, but great with boys.

Whether or not God made me gay is another issue. But it most certainly wasn't a choice.

Re: what is so wrong about gay marriage???
 

Actually, I doubt that the ratio of joke marriages to serious marriages would increase. We already have joke marriages with people running off to Las Vegas and getting married, old people marrying young people for sex/money, money marriages, benefits, and a whole bunch of other reasons.

Re: what is so wrong about gay marriage???
 

I see nothing wrong with gay marriage. By the State.
However, if you want a religious ceremony and your religion doesn't believe in gay marriage, there should be no reason that they're forced to allow two men or two women marry. That's their beliefs, and no one should be allowed to change them.

Re: what is so wrong about gay marriage???
 

I think the problem with gay marriage is a problem with the State in general. The State basically took a spiritual thing and added a legal contract to it. Gay people that wish to marry (so far as I have understood) want the legal aspect, whereas religious people see it as their wanting the spiritual aspect. The solution is to split the two. Legal contracts (ie legal benefits and privileges) have no place in the marital realm, and marriage (a spiritual binding of two people in religious opinion) has no place in the legal realm.

In essence, one side sees it as a contract, and wants to be able to have that contract.

The other side sees it as much more then a contract.

Re: what is so wrong about gay marriage???
 

Too bad that religion can refuse to marry anyone they want already and that complaint is not valid?

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Yeah it is already split. I mean people get married without having a big religious ceremony all of the time, atheists for example. Well actually it's not completely split because even if you want the religious ceremony you still have to get the contract for it to be recognised by the law, and that's pretty important. So you can't split it entirely. No matter what happens churches are never going to be forced to marry any couples they don't want to all gay couples want is the contract and they hope to get lucky enough to find a church to marry if them if that's what they want.

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It's called a court. People get married in courts all the time.

Re: what is so wrong about gay marriage???
 

Ok, homosexuality is something I don't agree with. However, I'm not judgmental enough to shun them because of their decision. I'm a sinner just like they are and one sin is enough to separate us from God. Therefore I consider myself equal with everyone else in the world. I said "decision" a few lines up and I do believe homosexuality is a choice. God didn't create it because that's counter to His nature. In Leviticus 18:22 it states "Do not practice homosexuality; it is a detestable sin." In 1 Timothy 1:10 "the sexually immoral, men who practice homosexuality, enslavers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine." I do agree we can't get away from sin but I disagree we should continue in it. Yes, we Christians should watch how we talk to people about topics. I think it's situational on our approach to talking to people about Christ. Amongst each other we can be direct when it comes to encouraging and correcting, however.

Re: what is so wrong about gay marriage???
 

So are you saying that animals choose to be homosexual, since there is documentation of homosexuality in the wild? Also if we took God out of the equation would you still believe it was a choice?

Re: what is so wrong about gay marriage???
 

Leviticus 18:22: Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.

Says nothing about homosexuality. Can be interpreted in multiple ways.

Timothy 1:10: for adulterers and perverts, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine

BibleGateway.com: A searchable online Bible in over 100 versions and 50 languages.

I don't see anything specifically about homsexuality in there.

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I'm also saying that animals choose to be this way. If we took God out of the equation I still think people would have a choice.

About the "lie" that's a matter of which translation you use. God is speaking to Moses in Leviticus. Here's the website for the passage in its context.
My Bible Study Tools - Personalized Online Bible Study and Bible Reading

Re: what is so wrong about gay marriage???
 

Would you say that everything in Leviticus needs to be taken at face value?

And might I ask, if homosexuality truly is a choice, why choose it? Gays get beaten, made fun of, mocked, and even killed. Why would anybody choose to make themselves love somebody of the same sex and then be forced to endure that?

Re: what is so wrong about gay marriage???
 

I'm not saying everything in Leviticus needs to be taken at face value. I don't know why people choose to be homosexual. I'd assume it's a belief like why people choose different religions. Christianity isn't just about belief though, it's about faith. Anyone can believe God exists but it's accepting Christ that gets you into Heaven. Even the demons believe in God but they're not going to Heaven.
My Bible Study Tools - Personalized Online Bible Study and Bible Reading
The demons verse is verse 19.

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*Jumps up and down, dances and points*

That is EXACTLY it. And I have never seen ANY good argument around that.

Re: what is so wrong about gay marriage???
 

Ok, after a little more thought I realized animals can't choose, obviously. Therefore I'm not sure why animals wind up being this way. It doesn't help to write on here after a long day I guess.

Homosexuality is also in the New Testament and it's not allowed either. There are passages in the NT that shouldn't be taken literally either, otherwise everyone would be walking around blind, not as many fingers, etc. If someone wants to know what the Bible is talking about, research the text before drawing conclusions. That's not toward you, it's just a general statement.

Yes, it would make sense for people to change their sexuality but that is what they choose to endure.

Re: what is so wrong about gay marriage???
 

Do you choose who you are attracted to? Do you go out and see a girl and say I'm going to be attracted to that girl? I highly doubt it, attraction is not a choice, you cannot make yourself love someone whether they are of the opposite sex or not. And it is certainly not a belief. I mean why on earth would a person from a very strict Catholic family choose to be gay, they wouldn't. It's just the way people are, just like I didn't choose to have brown hair and pale skin.

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You're saying its natural for animals to gay, just not humans? Why would human instinct in this matter differ from any other animal?

So basically you're picking and choosing which passages should and should not be taken literally? Just whatever fits the current status quo? I have researched the Bible, and I've come to the conclusion that you cannot take the majority if it literally. This is coming from a fellow Christian, by the way.

They choose to endure almost daily pain and suffering just to like people of the same sex? That's a ridiculous and nearly insulting idea. Let me ask you: could you honestly change your sexuality right now if you really wanted to?The majority of people are straight, or at least bi. I don't see the problem.

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That doesn't make sense. People won't turn bisexual when gays can marry, just like gays don't turn straight.

Oh, and http://answers.yahoo.com/question/in...4213700AAL4Jhk

Re: what is so wrong about gay marriage???
 

How Many People are Homosexual in the US? - Gay Adoption FAQs

Gay and Lesbian Families in the United States: Same-Sex Unmarried Partner Households

Why would it turn into a bisexual country? And even if it did (which it won't), why is there something wrong with that?

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Wait a sec so allowing all of the gay couples out there to get married is going to turn everyone bi? I don't know if you are one of those weird people who doesn't believe that people are born gay but just because gay couples can get married isn't going to increase the number of gay children. And of course the majority of America is straight, if the majority were gay or bi I'm pretty sure gay marriage would already be legal.

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The idea that an entire country could turn homosexual is absurd. But, let's assume that everyone in the US suddenly became gay. People marry who they love, they are happy, and the population is sustained through artificial insemination. What's the problem?

Aren't love and happiness the two most important things? Why would you want anything but that for the people of your country?

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I Don't get why this is a big concern? There's worse problems in the United States.

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I'm just saying that I liked how America was before all this gay marriage stuff started getting passed and such. I see marriage as the traditional man and woman, and the idea of women and women and men and men getting married is just something that I'm probably not going to get used. It might be because I don't WANT to get used to seeing gay married couples, or maybe it's just because I can't. Either way, I view America as turning bi-sexual just because now some states are turning around allowing gay marriage. Maybe it IS absurd, but it's just the way I think.

Of course love and happiness are two important things. In my defense, you don't have to marry someone just to love someone and feel happy.

And of course I want people to feel love and happiness for the other person. If you wanna have a gay marriage, I say go for it. But I don't want gay marriages to be allowed in all the 50 states (only a select few), and I don't think you should be able to move out of that state until within a certain amount of time.

Absolutely. It's not a big concern. If gay marriages happens in all the 50 states, then it's something that I just have to accept even though I'm completely against it. I'm not concerned at all about the future, I'm just saying my point of view.

Re: what is so wrong about gay marriage???