what is so wrong about gay marriage???

[Khadra]

Originally Posted by mexico

Gay couples already have equal LEGAL rights under domestic partnership and civil union. That is what law should and can do. Civil Unions allow gays to receive the same health benefits and tax breaks married people get.

No they don't actually.

While domestic partners receive most of the benefits of marriage, several differences remain. These differences include, in part:

• Couples seeking domestic partnership must have a common residence; this is not a a requirement for marriage license applicants.
• Couples seeking domestic partnership must be 18 or older; minors can be married before the age of 18 with the consent of their parents.
• California permits married couples the option of confidential marriage, there is no equivalent institution for domestic partnerships. In confidential marriages, no witnesses are required and the marriage license is not a matter of public record.
• Married partners of state employees are eligible for the CalPERS long-term care insurance plan; domestic partners are not.
• There is, at least according to one appellate ruling, no equivalent of the Putative Spouse Doctrine for domestic partnerships. [3]

In addition to these differences specific to state law, should the Defense of Marriage Act be found unconstitutional or repealed, married persons in California might enjoy all the federal benefits of marriage, including Constitutionally-required recognition of their relationships as marriages in the rest of the United States under the Full Faith and Credit Clause. [4][dubious – discuss]
In addition to these differences specific to the United States, some countries that recognize same-sex marriages performed in California as valid in their own country, (e.g., Israel [5]), do not recognize same-sex domestic partnerships performed in California.
Many supporters of same-sex marriage also argue that the use of the word marriage itself constitutes a significant social difference,[citation needed] and in the majority opinion of In Re Marriage Cases, the California Supreme Court agreed, [4] suggesting an analogy with a hypothetical that branded interracial marriages "transracial unions".

[Pelios]

Originally Posted by Gidig

If you're implying that we should just be happy with what we've got, then I entirely disagree. Why can't we get married just like everyone else and call it marriage?

No I wasn't saying it like that.
The girl above me try to but it as if gay couples have no right and I just said what they did have.
I didn't mean to say that you should be ok with those rights.
But if you say everyone should be equal regardless, if you but it up for voting "if mexicans should be granted USA citizenship" I can bet anything that it wouldn't pass, why because people will vote base on that they believe is right to them.
The same for prop 8 people voted, based on what they believe was right.
Bottom point we do not live in a perfect world. Sometimes you win sometimes you lose.

[Khadra]

Originally Posted by mexico

Yes they do.

NO they don't. I just posted you the information which outlined the differences. Read it.

[Pelios]

A civil union is any state-recognized personal/romantic union that is not marriage. In California civil unions are pretty much marriage just diffrent name.

[Khadra]

Originally Posted by mexico

A civil union is any state-recognized personal/romantic union that is not marriage. In California civil unions are pretty much marriage just diffrent name.

It's the "pretty much" that is the problem. Anything less than total equality is unfair. The law should never favor a particular group. That is so wrong.

Originally Posted by mexico

No I wasn't saying it like that.
The girl above me try to but it as if gay couples have no right and I just said what they did have.
I didn't mean to say that you should be ok with those rights.
But if you say everyone should be equal regardless, if you but it up for voting "if mexicans should be granted USA citizenship" I can bet anything that it wouldn't pass, why because people will vote base on that they believe is right to them.
The same for prop 8 people voted, based on what they believe was right.
Bottom point we do not live in a perfect world. Sometimes you win sometimes you lose.

The problem is that it was ever put to a vote in the first place. Since when do we vote on whether or not we are going to allow people equal rights?

Also, the example you gave is not a good one because Mexicans are not American citizens so they do not have any claim to rights in the US. It's something completely different.

[bahamachicki]

I don't understand why there's such a problem with gay marriage. What does it matter? Who is the government to keep anybody (of legal age) from getting married to the person that they have fallen in love with. Most arguments go hand in hand with religious beliefs...so then what about separation of church and state?

[JustARandomGirl]

Nothing is wrong with it at all.
It's just people thinking they have the right to control others and tell them how to behave and what to do.
And they don't and as soon as we all figure that out the world will be a better place.

[anishift]

Ok, so I'm going to probably just post once here then leave, because this subject actually pisses me off. Haha.
Well, in response to quotes like this:

But if you are Christian, do you not believe what is written in the bible? If you are Christian, it doesn't seem as if you should be able to pick and choose which aspects of the Christian faith you are going to believe. It seems to me that Christians should believe all that is written in the bible, or they're not truly following the word of their God. And it is in fact written in the bible that same sex marriage should not be permitted.

Do YOU not believe what is written in the Bible? You pick and choose every day, you lie, you lust, etc. EVERYONE does. Homosexuality, according to the Christians, is a sin. Just like any other sin. I would imagine that homosexual Christians do believe it's wrong, just like you believe lying is wrong. You do it anyway. It doesn't mean you aren't a Christian. The difference between being a liar and a homosexual is this: You choose to lie. People don't choose to be gay

I have to disagree with that. What about the few words that are said at nearly every marriage? ""For better, for worse; for richer or for poorer; in sickness and in health; to love and to cherish 'til death do us part." No where in the bible do I see "For God created man and woman so that they could fulfill each others economical needs." Do you? If you can find a passage such as that, please do share.

No one needs to find a passage such as that. Marriage isn’t religious anymore. People get married who aren’t Christian all of the time, even people who aren’t religious. So first of all, I don’t care what God said. But second of all, until very recently, (despite what the Bible says) love DIDN’T have to be a part of marriage. In Europe many marriages were arrangements almost like treaties between two countries. Marriage comes along with a lot of benefits, yes it’s about love but marriage isn’t just a piece of paper with some words.

And even if marriage is no longer treated as a Christian sacrament among some, it did originate as a Christian sacrament. Doesn't matter how it is treated nowadays, it still did originate and still is a Christian sacrament. If not for the bible, and it's mentioning of marriage, whose to say marriage would even be heard of? Therefore, you cannot truly say marriage is not truly and will remain a Christian sacrament.

Let’s assume that were true, and that marriage existed ONLY in places where Christianity existed. Even if it were true, just because it originated as a Christian sacrament doesn’t mean it should be treated as one now, because it is NOT anymore. Also, marriage is just a word. If not for the bible, it would certainly still exist.

But unfortunately, everything I just said was hypothetical, because marriage did NOT originate as a Christian sacrament. Before the Europeans came to the Americas, do you think the native Americans were carrying around bibles? NO! Do you honestly believe that marriage was something that only existed in Europe? Marriage predates recorded history, and the native Americans had marriage! “It is highly unlikely that the basic concept of holding a ceremony to commemorate a life partnership began in any one culture.” I couldn’t have said that any better. Come on. Marriage is not a Christian institution, just because it is talked about in an old book does not mean that said old book created it or that it originated in said book. That’s completely wrong.

People may choose to believe that marriage is more so about economics rather than love, but that is not why marriage was originally brought about. Can you truly argue that the biggest part of marriage, is about companionship? Whether someone chooses to enter that commitment they make when they are married because of money, or because of love, the outcome of marriage still remains the same - it is being bonded to another person, whether money is involved or not. You may be marrying for money, but at the same time you are still vowing to love and to cherish the person you are marrying. If not for love, marriage would not hold such an importance to a lot of people.

No one is actually arguing that love is less important than the economic side of marriage. Just that love is not the ONLY reason. Otherwise, no one would really care to get married because then it WOULD just be a piece of paper. But it isn’t. It’s not just about love. But also, you just made a great argument for gay marriage. ^_^

Yet Christian beliefs did have a large affect on how the sacrament of marriage is celebrated, you said so yourself, didn't you? So while what you say is true, how can you disagree that the Christian beliefs haven't had a large affect on the way the sacrament of marriage is celebrated? Christian beliefs and customs play a part in marriage, whether it's a Christian marriage or not.

Sure. But just because they’ve had a large influence doesn’t mean the Christian way is the only way. It only plays a large part because Christianity is a large religion. Doesn’t mean we all have to practice marriage the way the Christians do.

On the subject of civil unions, it’s not the same. They don’t get the same rights, civil unions can’t be performed in all states, and civil unions are not recognized in all states. But that is just the beginning. Refer to previous posts, there are links to why civil unions are not the same as marriages.

Hmm, yet it's expected that Christians change beliefs that they have had for thousand of years in order to accommodate others? It's expected that Christians betray their beliefs that are clearly written in the bible in order to make gays feel more included? While I may not agree with many of the Christian beliefs, I would not be in favor of expecting a whole religion to change some of it's main beliefs and customs so that I could get my way. I'm not saying Christians aren't guilty of this as well, as they should respect what those who are not against gay marriage believe as well. But unfortunately, beliefs of Christians or any other Religions are not always going to be fair towards others. But hey, that's life.

Let me tell you what is expected of Christians. I don’t expect them to change their beliefs, I expect them to respect that not everyone shares their beliefs and not everyone should have to follow them. When Proposition 8 was put to the vote in California, people were standing around with their signs about God and how it’s wrong. What I expect from Christians is to keep their religious beliefs the hell out of their votes, because the Church and the States are supposed to be separated but unfortunately since the majority of people are Christian or some other religion, the vote really came down to religion. According to the religious gay marriage opens the door to people marrying animals. All I have to say to that is WHAT THE F***. Gays are not ANIMALS. So no. Next: It opens the door to old people marrying minors. No, it most certainly does not. Gay marriage doesn’t void the law that says you can’t get married until you are a legal adult. Next: It ruins the sanctity of marriage. Really? How much sanctity can a marriage POSSIBLY have if it is ruined by two people joining in a bond similar to your own, in love and happiness? I’ve got to wonder how much “Godliness” a marriage has if it is going to suffer due to the happiness of others.

This is clearly happening, yet these people deny that their agenda has any plans to infiltrate the church. There are 2000 years of church teachings set in stone, and the gay agenda want to come in and say "let me just cross out this part, delete that, modernize this...and we're good

I think that you are assuming. I think most gays would be happy to just be allowed to get married. The individual gay does not have an “agenda” to make the churches accept them. The media might, but the individuals do not. Also, having gay marriage is not forcing anyone’s views on ANYONE. You don’t have to like it, you don’t have to have any part of it. The views being forced on everyone are those of the religious, who want gay marriage not to happen because “the Bible says so.” And because of someone else’s religion, gays are not allowed to marry. Because of religion. It really all comes down to that. People are refusing to be objective about what gay marriage actually is, and just doing what they think they should because “the Bible says so.”

If gays were being treated as second class citizens, and as terribly as they let on, they would not have any rights whatsoever. I do agree that gays should be allowed to have the same rights as married couples, only as registered couples, but I do not agree that gays should be allowed to participate in the sacrament of marriage in a Christian church, as that is controversial to Christian beliefs.

Second class =/= no rights. Second class = less rights. Once again, you only believe what you believe because of your religion. Marriage is not Christianity’s personal sorority, that is just an arrogant thing to say. Well, my religion doesn’t want it. I’m going to vote to make it law. We’re not saying the Christian church should be forced to marry gays if they don’t want to. Just that gays should be married in the first place.

Then if they are fighting to be married by the state, again, WHY should they care what Christians will not allow in their church!? I would understand this if there were far more Christians who not only refused to marry gays in their churches, but were fighting to make marriage illegal to Christians all together. But most Christians are not fighting to completely outlaw gay marriage, they simply will not permit it in their church.

Most gays DON’T care what the Christians won’t allow in their church. The issue is that Christians are voting against gay marriage just because of their religion. THAT is why they are angry with the Christians (although the Christians are not the only ones against it, just the most outspoken ones) Most Christians I have met ARE fighting to outlaw gay marriage altogether. It’s unfair that people are (mainly) having to follow the Christian beliefs when they are not Christian and neither is the state.

The government makes the laws, not the Christians, am I right?

Not when it comes to the vote (as with Proposition 8) and the majority of the voters are Christian or some other religion that can’t keep it’s nose out of people’s business.

Please, please, PLEASE read what I say before you respond - I already answered this. They don't care about what the hell Christians allow in their precious churches. Churches can do whatever the hell they want within their churches. They only care because a large group of Christians are trying to prevent SECULAR marriages from being legalized, something which the churches have absolutely no right to. Nearly every group opposing gay marriage is Christian - there are very few others fighting it so much. If churches would stay the hell away from secular laws, homosexuals wouldn't care about religious marriages.

Yep.

Exactly. Just as Christians are not going to change their beliefs in order to accommodate homosexuals, because that would be going against not the constitution, but the bible. So therefore, can't you at least understand where Christians are coming from?

Not everyone believes in or has to follow the Bible. Everyone has to follow the law, and Christians are basically forcing the Bible into the law by voting based on religion and not based on real information.

Okay, here's a simple resolution. Why not simply stop whining about others beliefs, and let people believe whatever the heck they want to believe?

Sounds like something I would like to say to Christians and other religious persons. How about THEY stop whining about other people’s beliefs and learn to accept that not everyone has to follow what they believe?

Christians are not trying to deny gays the right to be together, but gays DO NOT have the right to be married, for marriage is a sacrament for a man and a woman.

Wrong. Marriage isn’t always holy, and not everyone is Christian. Marriage isn’t Christian, so I honestly couldn’t care less what the Christian definition of marriage is.

Christians will not allow gays to be married in their church because it is against the word of their God.

They don't have to marry gays in their church. What does that have to do with gays being able to get married? Also, Christians do tons of things that go against the word of their God.

What Christian's believe is not going to change because the gays don't agree.

It doesn’t matter. We don’t care if they change their beliefs, we just expect them to respect that not everyone has to follow them.

I never said your laws weren't valid. But they are only valid IN CANADA.

“The Equal Protection Clause, part of the Fourteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution, provides that "no state shall ... deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws"

But if they do not make the laws, why are so many gays so damn worried that Christians are going to somehow abolish gay marriage?

The majority makes the laws in any vote, and the majority is always religion vs. non-religion. Mainly Christianity. Speaking the case of Proposition 8, the religious (along with a few outliers, but mainly the Christians and other religious persons) DID abolish gay marriage because they were the MAJORITY.

Christians are not going to change their beliefs to benefit gays! If you seem to hate Christians so awfully much, why do you care what they abolish in their church anyways?

We are not talking about hating Christians or what they abolish in their church. Most gays don’t give a DAMN what the Christians abolish in their church. It gets a little bit sticky, though, when the Christians start to abolish things in the state that don’t hurt anyone just because they CAN. Because they have the majority.

Part of having equal rights is to have the right to vote however you feel is best. If you believe that gay marriage should be made illegal, then of course that is how you would cast your vote. If you are saying that Christians should not vote for what they believe, then you are telling them not to believe what they do believe, which in my opinion, is just as bad as Christian's telling you that you cannot marry the same sex. Both sides are guilty of not treating each other as equal, and neither is willing to admit it.

No they aren’t. They are simply saying the Christians should keep their church separate from our government. They are forcing their beliefs on other people. If they can’t be objective about a vote such as Prop 8 maybe they shouldn’t have voted in the first place. But of course, they DO have the right to cast their vote for any reason, or no reason. It’s just that the fact is, marriage is secular. And the Christians, being the majority, are essentially making the votes on gay marriage non-secular.

The minority is being wronged. They aren’t allowed to get married (which, by the way, is not going to affect you personally). Them getting married doesn’t hurt ANYONE, but just because some people don’t like the idea they are choosing to shove that down other people’s throats because the Bible says so. Basically, all it’s doing is not allowing rights. Either way, gays will be together. All you’re doing is denying rights to people that have nothing to do with the church.

and I personally do not believe that ‘majority rules.’

Then why are you okay with the minority (gays) being ruled by the majority (Mainly Christian and other religions) even though them getting married doesn’t actually hurt anyone?

You are WAY off base with your ridiculous hypothetical situations. Freedom of religion is CLEARLY allowed to the people by the Bill of Rights. The right to be homosexual is also in the bill of rights, but it does not ensure them the right to get married in the bill of rights. Since their right to marry is not in the bill of rights, then there has to be a separate law to ensure that, and separate laws are up to the people.

Actually, you are way off base. ”The Equal Protection Clause, part of the Fourteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution, provides that "no state shall ... deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws"

Again, you don't speak for the whole movement when you say "they don't want to change the church". I'm sure there are probably plenty of gays who don't want that to happen. But the politicians, the ones IN CHARGE of the movement, do want this to happen.

The majority of the movement does not want to infiltrate the church. They just want to get married. The ones in charge don’t represent or speak for the whole movement either, their agenda is generally not the agenda of the individual homosexual. That’s like blaming terrorism of the Taliban and/or Al-Qaeda on every person in the Middle East just because the terrorists have so much power (in that they are recognized and given much attention, like politicians with their agendas). Just because they get so much attention doesn’t mean that it what everyone or even the majority is pushing for. They just want to get married.

In California, about 3/4 of marriages end in divorce (I think that was a statistic from 2004, will get back to you on that one). If anything is ruining the sanctity of marriage it is that. Just throwing that out there.

I gotta wonder what people have against others getting equal rights when it doesn’t infringe on their own.

1: There are other routes to take in order to obtain those benefits. And I still don't buy that gays are second class citizens because they don't get certain benefits offered to married couples. To me, second class citizens are the African Americans before the Civil Rights movement. And please don't say that gays today have it as bad as African Americans did back then, it is just demeaning/offensive to those African Americans.

Just because the gays don’t have it as bad as the African Americans did doesn’t mean that they aren’t second class citizens. There are different degrees of second class, but if it isn’t first class, it’s second class. Gays aren’t first class.

I am not claiming to speak for everyone on my side like you do, you guarantee that "no gays want to infiltrate the church", therefor you are trying to speak for your entire side when you CAN'T. Some of them clearly do want to infiltrate the church.

I really don’t see what this has to do with gays being able to have their marriages recognized and made legal by the state. It seems if anyone is getting sidetracked, that person is you.

Well you could have it backwards. Gays and the state are saying that there should be laws allowing them to marry. Thats the state butting in on religion, and there should be a separation right? I'm just saying there is a counter point to yours so it is not really valid.

No it is not. Marriage is not a religious institution.

-Now, who is the hypocrite? Liberalism wants to bring freedom to minorities, in fact they want to give them more freedom than anyone else. They want to give freedom to illegal immigrants who have no business being here while we pick up the tab. And in them giving more freedom than necessary, more than the average American citizen, it takes rights away from regular hard working people.

Gays aren’t illegal immigrants. They aren’t taking jobs or taking rights etc. from people. lol.

So by stopping ridiculous laws, or as you say "stopping freedom", they are actually working to preserve freedom for the average American.

Stopping illegal immigration is not equivalent to stopping gay marriage. Stopping gay marriage isn’t preserving anyone’s freedom.

- It doesn't. I just don't want is to spread through society. I don't want the gay agenda to work it's way into schools and everyday life. And gay marriage is a step in that direction.

As you have already said, there are politicians with an agenda, you will be hard-pressed to find gays with an “agenda” to change churches and schools. Besides, kids are ALREADY being taught about gays in school. For one thing, marriage isn’t really talked about in school in the first place. (I can’t remember a single time when a teacher taught about marriage.) Second of all, if a kid is going to public school the parent has to accept that through some teachers who don’t folllow the rules or by other kids, their children WILL learn about gays. However, you will mostly find that teachers don’t really talk about these things anyway. Gays getting married doesn’t mean all of the sudden teachers are going to start talking about marriage when they didn’t before. So they can send their kids to a private school, or risk them being corrupted by the real world. The real world has gay people in it and whether they believe in it or not, it’s something that they are going to know about if they go to a public school because in a public school there are lots of kids who come from families with differing beliefs etc. If parents are that worried about their kids learning things in school, maybe they should just homeschool them because if they are going to learn that being gay is right from ANYONE it will be from their peers, not their teachers.

Gay couples already have equal LEGAL rights under domestic partnership and civil union. That is what law should and can do. Civil Unions allow gays to receive the same health benefits and tax breaks married people get.

No they do not have equal legal rights. Domestic partnerships and civil unions are not the same as marriage.

I’m done now. ok. lol. The point is this type of thing shouldn’t be brought to the vote, because people will of course be swayed by their religion, (which is understandable) and the fact is that their religion doesn’t always allow equality. It’s a matter of equality and equal treatment under the law (Guaranteed by the Equal Protection Clause in the 14th Amendment. Equality shouldn’t be something people get to vote on. It should be absolute. Gays getting married doesn’t infringe on anyone’s rights and let’s be honest, if kids go to a private school they won’t learn about gays from their teachers. If they go to a public school then they still most likely won’t be taught about gays by their teachers, but will most likely learn about such things from their peers. Teachers really try to steer clear of these subjects. Even so, saying that “Sometimes people are attracted to others who are the same gender” isn’t really for or against gays, so it isn’t contradicting any beliefs that parents might give to their children, it is something they will inevitably learn about in the real world anyway. Enough about agendas. People will ALWAYS have agendas, straight, gay, whatever. Just because SOME politicians and a few gays have an agenda to infiltrate the church doesn’t mean they shouldn’t be allowed to get married. This is tiring, lol. Sorry if I offended anyone. I truly do not mean to do that and if I did then surely you should let me know.

[sturmeskind]

No one needs to find a passage such as that. Marriage isn’t religious anymore. People get married who aren’t Christian all of the time, even people who aren’t religious. So first of all, I don’t care what God said. But second of all, until very recently, (despite what the Bible says) love DIDN’T have to be a part of marriage. In Europe many marriages were arrangements almost like treaties between two countries. Marriage comes along with a lot of benefits, yes it’s about love but marriage isn’t just a piece of paper with some words.

The "marriage for love" thing is actually a pretty new development - and not a very religious one either. No one cared about love when my grandparents married.
In addition to that, there's marriage rites (or similar things) in every known culture of the past and present... originating mostly from political or economical reasons. The fact that we connect marriage with religion rather has to do with the development of culture rather than marriage being a solely religious matter - religion for a long time has been the "frame" of culture and that's why there's so many ceremonies.

Let’s assume that were true, and that marriage existed ONLY in places where Christianity existed. Even if it were true, just because it originated as a Christian sacrament doesn’t mean it should be treated as one now, because it is NOT anymore. Also, marriage is just a word. If not for the bible, it would certainly still exist.

But unfortunately, everything I just said was hypothetical, because marriage did NOT originate as a Christian sacrament. Before the Europeans came to the Americas, do you think the native Americans were carrying around bibles? NO! Do you honestly believe that marriage was something that only existed in Europe? Marriage predates recorded history, and the native Americans had marriage! “It is highly unlikely that the basic concept of holding a ceremony to commemorate a life partnership began in any one culture.” I couldn’t have said that any better. Come on. Marriage is not a Christian institution, just because it is talked about in an old book does not mean that said old book created it or that it originated in said book. That’s completely wrong.

See above. There's marriage or joining/bonding rites in every culture. It's not christian.

My own two cents? YAY for gay marriage. They (We? Last word's not spoken on that one yet) definitely have the right to marry,

[Kokoro]

Nothing. Nothing is wrong with gay marriage.

Love is love and if you love someone of the same sex you can get married.
People feelings need to be taken into consideration. I think same-sex marriage is a great thing.


I do think the main problem is that people are really threatened by what they're not. Which is why its a problem. If people weren't so threatened by a person's sexuality then there would be no issues against it.
Although people are entitled to there opinion in this case their opinions are far from right. Gay Marriage FTW!

[slickguy55]

I think that you are assuming. I think most gays would be happy to just be allowed to get married. The individual gay does not have an “agenda” to make the churches accept them. The media might, but the individuals do not. Also, having gay marriage is not forcing anyone’s views on ANYONE. You don’t have to like it, you don’t have to have any part of it. The views being forced on everyone are those of the religious, who want gay marriage not to happen because “the Bible says so.” And because of someone else’s religion, gays are not allowed to marry. Because of religion. It really all comes down to that. People are refusing to be objective about what gay marriage actually is, and just doing what they think they should because “the Bible says so.”

I’m not assuming crap. I am watching it happen before my eyes everyday. You’re right, the gays don’t have an agenda to change the church, they (and their cockroach political leader) have an agenda to destroy religion completely. You will deny that because you don’t realize that drastic things happen at a slow crawl. But there are 159 MILLION Christians in this country that will NEVER let that happen. You are so incredibly ignorant with your pathetic argument that says we believe what we believe because the “bible says so”. We believe what we believe because of the moral direction of the country, and the structure of the life of average citizens which is the backbone of the nation.

Not when it comes to the vote (as with Proposition 8) and the majority of the voters are Christian or some other religion that can’t keep it’s nose out of people’s business.

We live in a democracy I thought? The people decide what happens, and the people decided that THEY DON”T WANT THIS CRAP. And you sit there in shock and awe because you believe that most people support gay marriage. Again, your ridiculous “I’m rebellious because I’m anit-religion” attitude is out spoken. The vote didn’t go your way so you start blaming a certain group of people, which you make clear with this post; and that is discrimination, the same discrimination you think you righteously fighting against. So get the hell over the fact that you believe our opinion is invalid because of what we believe and because of the moral direction we want for the country.

Wrong. Marriage isn’t always holy, and not everyone is Christian. Marriage isn’t Christian, so I honestly couldn’t care less what the Christian definition of marriage is.

Marriage came from religion and it IS religious, no matter how badly you don’t want that to be true. And the “atheists get married” argument is invalid because marriage is about a man and a woman developing a family. So no, actually you are the one who is wrong.

“The Equal Protection Clause, part of the Fourteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution, provides that "no state shall ... deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws"

So she’s typing on her computer in Canada, how is she in the jurisdiction of the United States? Here’s the answer: she isn’t. So your wrong again.

We are not talking about hating Christians or what they abolish in their church. Most gays don’t give a DAMN what the Christians abolish in their church. It gets a little bit sticky, though, when the Christians start to abolish things in the state that don’t hurt anyone just because they CAN. Because they have the majority.

You keep on bitching about the Christians being too powerful. The congress is controlled by dems, most of them liberal, and they go against Christian teachings. Christians are powerful because of their population, and if they control that majority of the country, shouldn’t the laws somewhat agree with their beliefs? Does that make too much sense for you?

No they aren’t. They are simply saying the Christians should keep their church separate from our government. They are forcing their beliefs on other people. If they can’t be objective about a vote such as Prop 8 maybe they shouldn’t have voted in the first place. But of course, they DO have the right to cast their vote for any reason, or no reason. It’s just that the fact is, marriage is secular. And the Christians, being the majority, are essentially making the votes on gay marriage non-secular.

Why? Because our country is a democracy and it bothers you when the majority of our country doesn’t agree with you? You are just foolish. You are the type that would rather live in a dictatorship operated by your political spectrum. You have no respect for common people and their opinions, you don’t get your way so you bitch and accuse to majority of the voters of being blind and uninformed. In reality you are the one who is uninformed and out of touch with the reality of our country.

The minority is being wronged. They aren’t allowed to get married (which, by the way, is not going to affect you personally). Them getting married doesn’t hurt ANYONE, but just because some people don’t like the idea they are choosing to shove that down other people’s throats because the Bible says so. Basically, all it’s doing is not allowing rights. Either way, gays will be together. All you’re doing is denying rights to people that have nothing to do with the church.

You are confusing us not wanting gay to be married with us forcing a group of people to become Christian. The rights can be obtained by a civil union so therefore no one is being denied rights, the only thing that is happening is that Christians are trying to save the image and meaning of marriage, something that came from them.

Actually, you are way off base. ”The Equal Protection Clause, part of the Fourteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution, provides that "no state shall ... deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws"

And they CAN OBTAIN THOSE RIGHTS THROUGH CIVIL UNION. So they are being denied shit, except the ability to ruin the image of something created by religion.

The majority of the movement does not want to infiltrate the church. They just want to get married. The ones in charge don’t represent or speak for the whole movement either, their agenda is generally not the agenda of the individual homosexual. That’s like blaming terrorism of the Taliban and/or Al-Qaeda on every person in the Middle East just because the terrorists have so much power (in that they are recognized and given much attention, like politicians with their agendas). Just because they get so much attention doesn’t mean that it what everyone or even the majority is pushing for. They just want to get married.

If the entire middle east elected the Taliban to run their country and supported their view points then yeah, it would be the same. But that’s not true, meaning your ridiculous comparison is a poor one.

In California, about 3/4 of marriages end in divorce (I think that was a statistic from 2004, will get back to you on that one). If anything is ruining the sanctity of marriage it is that. Just throwing that out there.

And how will allowing gay marriage improve that?

Just because the gays don’t have it as bad as the African Americans did doesn’t mean that they aren’t second class citizens. There are different degrees of second class, but if it isn’t first class, it’s second class. Gays aren’t first class.

That is ridiculous. Since they can obtain benefits from a civil union, there is nothing you can show that proves gays are treated as second class citizens.

Gays aren’t illegal immigrants. They aren’t taking jobs or taking rights etc. from people. lol.

Maybe you should read the entire debate I had with that person. Instead you just take one sentence from a random post, take it out of context, and try to use it to support your point. It is a popular tactic with ignorant liberals who can’t argue with their own thoughts.

As you have already said, there are politicians with an agenda, you will be hard-pressed to find gays with an “agenda” to change churches and schools. Besides, kids are ALREADY being taught about gays in school. For one thing, marriage isn’t really talked about in school in the first place. (I can’t remember a single time when a teacher taught about marriage.) Second of all, if a kid is going to public school the parent has to accept that through some teachers who don’t folllow the rules or by other kids, their children WILL learn about gays. However, you will mostly find that teachers don’t really talk about these things anyway. Gays getting married doesn’t mean all of the sudden teachers are going to start talking about marriage when they didn’t before. So they can send their kids to a private school, or risk them being corrupted by the real world. The real world has gay people in it and whether they believe in it or not, it’s something that they are going to know about if they go to a public school because in a public school there are lots of kids who come from families with differing beliefs etc. If parents are that worried about their kids learning things in school, maybe they should just homeschool them because if they are going to learn that being gay is right from ANYONE it will be from their peers, not their teachers.

No wonder you don’t know shit about marriage. Maybe you should do some research on marriage in society amongst the actual majority of the citizens in the middle ages if you don’t believe it is religious; instead of watching too many god damn movies like Braveheart or something where they marry for land, and then taking incidents like that as your accepted view of what marriage was in those times .The bolded point is by far the most ignorant thing you have said. Parents don’t have to sit back and accept a god damn thing. Their tax dollars pay for the schools, so if they disagree with something then the last thing that they HAVE to do it accept it. We control the government, the government does not control us.
And as I said, there are 159 million Christians. If 159 million people don’t want their kids learning this crap in school then they should not be forced to pay for a private school just to save their child’s mind from the numerous amounts of liberal bullshit in our schools.

[thebigmole]

Originally Posted by slickguy55

I’m not assuming crap. I am watching it happen before my eyes everyday. You’re right, the gays don’t have an agenda to change the church, they (and their cockroach political leader) have an agenda to destroy religion completely. You will deny that because you don’t realize that drastic things happen at a slow crawl. But there are 159 MILLION Christians in this country that will NEVER let that happen. You are so incredibly ignorant with your pathetic argument that says we believe what we believe because the “bible says so”. We believe what we believe because of the moral direction of the country, and the structure of the life of average citizens which is the backbone of the nation.

We live in a democracy I thought? The people decide what happens, and the people decided that THEY DON”T WANT THIS CRAP. And you sit there in shock and awe because you believe that most people support gay marriage. Again, your ridiculous “I’m rebellious because I’m anit-religion” attitude is out spoken. The vote didn’t go your way so you start blaming a certain group of people, which you make clear with this post; and that is discrimination, the same discrimination you think you righteously fighting against. So get the hell over the fact that you believe our opinion is invalid because of what we believe and because of the moral direction we want for the country.

Marriage came from religion and it IS religious, no matter how badly you don’t want that to be true. And the “atheists get married” argument is invalid because marriage is about a man and a woman developing a family. So no, actually you are the one who is wrong.






So she’s typing on her computer in Canada, how is she in the jurisdiction of the United States? Here’s the answer: she isn’t. So your wrong again.

You keep on bitching about the Christians being too powerful. The congress is controlled by dems, most of them liberal, and they go against Christian teachings. Christians are powerful because of their population, and if they control that majority of the country, shouldn’t the laws somewhat agree with their beliefs? Does that make too much sense for you?

Why? Because our country is a democracy and it bothers you when the majority of our country doesn’t agree with you? You are just foolish. You are the type that would rather live in a dictatorship operated by your political spectrum. You have no respect for common people and their opinions, you don’t get your way so you bitch and accuse to majority of the voters of being blind and uninformed. In reality you are the one who is uninformed and out of touch with the reality of our country.


You are confusing us not wanting gay to be married with us forcing a group of people to become Christian. The rights can be obtained by a civil union so therefore no one is being denied rights, the only thing that is happening is that Christians are trying to save the image and meaning of marriage, something that came from them.



And they CAN OBTAIN THOSE RIGHTS THROUGH CIVIL UNION. So they are being denied shit, except the ability to ruin the image of something created by religion.
If the entire middle east elected the Taliban to run their country and supported their view points then yeah, it would be the same. But that’s not true, meaning your ridiculous comparison is a poor one.


And how will allowing gay marriage improve that?




That is ridiculous. Since they can obtain benefits from a civil union, there is nothing you can show that proves gays are treated as second class citizens.







Maybe you should read the entire debate I had with that person. Instead you just take one sentence from a random post, take it out of context, and try to use it to support your point. It is a popular tactic with ignorant liberals who can’t argue with their own thoughts.

No wonder you don’t know shit about marriage. Maybe you should do some research on marriage in society amongst the actual majority of the citizens in the middle ages if you don’t believe it is religious; instead of watching too many god damn movies like Braveheart or something where they marry for land, and then taking incidents like that as your accepted view of what marriage was in those times .The bolded point is by far the most ignorant thing you have said. Parents don’t have to sit back and accept a god damn thing. Their tax dollars pay for the schools, so if they disagree with something then the last thing that they HAVE to do it accept it. We control the government, the government does not control us.
And as I said, there are 159 million Christians. If 159 million people don’t want their kids learning this crap in school then they should not be forced to pay for a private school just to save their child’s mind from the numerous amounts of liberal bullshit in our schools.

You are assuming again. You are assuming that every single Christian in this country is against gay marriage. Let me enlighten you, there are some Christians who are gay and there are some Christians who are liberal and they are either all for gay marriage or don't really care. Not all Christians are stuck in the past, the see that gay couples deserve the same rights as hetero couples, which is something they DO NOT get from civil unions. Also since you obviously don't know this, civil unions are only allowed in very few states.

Now let's see the origin of marriage, "It is very hard to be able to establish a true date on the first marriages although the Old Testament in the Bible does mention a little about marriage as it was considered a family and household affair. The oldest male relative was the caretaker of the girls and the prospective husband would ask the father for the girl after first bringing him gifts to win his approval. The mother was dominated by the father and had no choice in the matter. The father would transfer the daughter to the prospective husband in public as this showed that he approved this transfer and that the groom had the father's approval. After this transfer the bride and groom ate a meal together with the families and then the groom took the bride home. In the Old Testament of the Bible there is no mention of a formal exchange of vows or of a preacher or priest being present at this union."
Look at that religion wasn't involved with marriage at first, even the Bible says so. I will concede that marriage is NOW almost completely a religious institution, however the religious part of marriage means nothing unless the couple gets the correct legal part as well, you know a marriage lisence, that thing that has nothing to do with religion and should be available for everyone. I mean can you give me a good reason why a marriage lisence should be denied to homosexual couples? Hmmm? It has nothing to do with the church, completely has to do with the legal issues nothing else, so where's your reason? Is it because you think that if we give homosexual couples that then it will just plow the way for them to "take over the church"? Think logically about that and you will see that it will never happen, because that would be something that your 159 million Christians would agree on and prevent from happening, so don't worry so much.

I must be honest every time you mentioned morals in you post I wanted to scream. I don't know who died and made Chrisitanity the authority of morals but you need to understand we live in a country that is supposed to have Separation of Church and State. You Christians can get you morals from wherever you like but I wish you could respect that the rest of us get our morals from either their own religions, or for us atheists, common sense.

[ATP787]

Originally Posted by slickguy55

I’m not assuming crap. I am watching it happen before my eyes everyday. You’re right, the gays don’t have an agenda to change the church, they (and their cockroach political leader) have an agenda to destroy religion completely. You will deny that because you don’t realize that drastic things happen at a slow crawl. But there are 159 MILLION Christians in this country that will NEVER let that happen. You are so incredibly ignorant with your pathetic argument that says we believe what we believe because the “bible says so”. We believe what we believe because of the moral direction of the country, and the structure of the life of average citizens which is the backbone of the nation.

Pure BS. I know several gay people, and they are very Christian; to suggest they're out to "destroy religion completely" is delusional.

By the way, I'm one of those 159 million Christians, and I'm very much for allowing gays to marry.

[DoesThisLookInfected?]

Originally Posted by slickguy55

I’m not assuming crap. I am watching it happen before my eyes everyday. You’re right, the gays don’t have an agenda to change the church, they (and their cockroach political leader) have an agenda to destroy religion completely. You will deny that because you don’t realize that drastic things happen at a slow crawl. But there are 159 MILLION Christians in this country that will NEVER let that happen. You are so incredibly ignorant with your pathetic argument that says we believe what we believe because the “bible says so”. We believe what we believe because of the moral direction of the country, and the structure of the life of average citizens which is the backbone of the nation.

The moral direction of this country? The only reason it SEEMS worse is because it's more publicized. To be honest, this country is getting morally BETTER. People are more accepting, depending less on religion, not being so

We live in a democracy I thought? The people decide what happens, and the people decided that THEY DON”T WANT THIS CRAP. And you sit there in shock and awe because you believe that most people support gay marriage. Again, your ridiculous “I’m rebellious because I’m anit-religion” attitude is out spoken. The vote didn’t go your way so you start blaming a certain group of people, which you make clear with this post; and that is discrimination, the same discrimination you think you righteously fighting against. So get the hell over the fact that you believe our opinion is invalid because of what we believe and because of the moral direction we want for the country.

No, we DO NOT live in a democracy. America IS NOT a democracy. Athens was. We live in a republic. Because the general people don't have the knowledge to make up every law.

Marriage came from religion and it IS religious, no matter how badly you don’t want that to be true. And the “atheists get married” argument is invalid because marriage is about a man and a woman developing a family. So no, actually you are the one who is wrong.

So, are you against infertiles being married?

So she’s typing on her computer in Canada, how is she in the jurisdiction of the United States? Here’s the answer: she isn’t. So your wrong again.

So Canadians don't have a valid opinion?

ou keep on bitching about the Christians being too powerful. The congress is controlled by dems, most of them liberal, and they go against Christian teachings. Christians are powerful because of their population, and if they control that majority of the country, shouldn’t the laws somewhat agree with their beliefs? Does that make too much sense for you?

I doubt there are more than 5 members of Congress that aren't religious.

Why? Because our country is a democracy and it bothers you when the majority of our country doesn’t agree with you? You are just foolish. You are the type that would rather live in a dictatorship operated by your political spectrum. You have no respect for common people and their opinions, you don’t get your way so you bitch and accuse to majority of the voters of being blind and uninformed. In reality you are the one who is uninformed and out of touch with the reality of our country.

Look above, we don't live in a democracy.

You are confusing us not wanting gay to be married with us forcing a group of people to become Christian. The rights can be obtained by a civil union so therefore no one is being denied rights, the only thing that is happening is that Christians are trying to save the image and meaning of marriage, something that came from them.

No, a civil union doesn't have all of the same rights. And the meaning of marriage? What the hell? The meaning

And they CAN OBTAIN THOSE RIGHTS THROUGH CIVIL UNION. So they are being denied shit, except the ability to ruin the image of something created by religion.

If the entire middle east elected the Taliban to run their country and supported their view points then yeah, it would be the same. But that’s not true, meaning your ridiculous comparison is a poor one.

NO, THEY CAN'T OBTAIN THOSE RIGHTS THROUGH CIVIL UNION!

That is ridiculous. Since they can obtain benefits from a civil union, there is nothing you can show that proves gays are treated as second class citizens.

No, see above...

No wonder you don’t know shit about marriage. Maybe you should do some research on marriage in society amongst the actual majority of the citizens in the middle ages if you don’t believe it is religious; instead of watching too many god damn movies like Braveheart or something where they marry for land, and then taking incidents like that as your accepted view of what marriage was in those times .The bolded point is by far the most ignorant thing you have said. Parents don’t have to sit back and accept a god damn thing. Their tax dollars pay for the schools, so if they disagree with something then the last thing that they HAVE to do it accept it. We control the government, the government does not control us.
And as I said, there are 159 million Christians. If 159 million people don’t want their kids learning this crap in school then they should not be forced to pay for a private school just to save their child’s mind from the numerous amounts of liberal bullshit in our schools.

What crap? It's pretty much a fact that they don't choose to be gay. It should be allowed to be in schools. It's utter bullshit any other way!

[slickguy55]

Originally Posted by DoesThisLookInfected?

What crap? It's pretty much a fact that they don't choose to be gay. It should be allowed to be in schools. It's utter bullshit any other way!

Every other reply was just you ridiculously taking me out of context, which I mentioned was a typical tactic for liberals who cant argue with their own thoughts and ideas, like you. And thats not a bash either, because if you take someones words out of context because its the only way you can form an argument, then that truly means you are incapable of using your own thoughts and ideas, and thats the tactic you just used.

Any other way is not bullshit. What bullshit is is telling 7 year olds that they might be gay when they don't even have sexual urges and their parents who pay the tax dollars of the schools may disagree with teaching that bullshit in the first place. Thats what bullshit is, but I don't expect you to understand that because you are some 15 year old who I'm thinking might be homosexual and gets picked on for it, there for your opinion is biased when it comes to what should be taught.

[Xujhan]

Originally Posted by slickguy55

Every other reply was just you ridiculously taking me out of context, which I mentioned was a typical tactic for liberals who cant argue with their own thoughts and ideas, like you. And thats not a bash either, because if you take someones words out of context because its the only way you can form an argument, then that truly means you are incapable of using your own thoughts and ideas, and thats the tactic you just used.

Any other way is not bullshit. What bullshit is is telling 7 year olds that they might be gay when they don't even have sexual urges and their parents who pay the tax dollars of the schools may disagree with teaching that bullshit in the first place. Thats what bullshit is, but I don't expect you to understand that because you are some 15 year old who I'm thinking might be homosexual and gets picked on for it, there for your opinion is biased when it comes to what should be taught.

And your opinion is any less biased? At this point I wouldn't be too surprised if you turned out to be Ann Coulter in disguise.

[DoesThisLookInfected?]

Originally Posted by slickguy55

Every other reply was just you ridiculously taking me out of context, which I mentioned was a typical tactic for liberals who cant argue with their own thoughts and ideas, like you. And thats not a bash either, because if you take someones words out of context because its the only way you can form an argument, then that truly means you are incapable of using your own thoughts and ideas, and thats the tactic you just used.

Ridiculously taking you out of context? I read what you said, and I replied to that. If my ideas are the same as a group of people, am I conforming?

Any other way is not bullshit. What bullshit is is telling 7 year olds that they might be gay when they don't even have sexual urges and their parents who pay the tax dollars of the schools may disagree with teaching that bullshit in the first place. Thats what bullshit is, but I don't expect you to understand that because you are some 15 year old who I'm thinking might be homosexual and gets picked on for it, there for your opinion is biased when it comes to what should be taught.[/quote]
No, they don't tell you that you might be gay, just that it's OKAY to be gay. And that there are gay people in the world. I don't see what's wrong with that at all.

[slickguy55]

Yeah ok, thats really a huge difference. And yes, you did ridiculously take me out of context.

Xujhan- How could my opinion be equally biased? I pointed out that he is bias for being in the middle of a situation. And I'm not in the middle of the situation, I just see it, and form an opinion. And because I feel strongly about it, it doesn't mean I'm biased. But if your personally involved with one side of the struggle, then yes you are biased as I stated, but thats not me. See the difference? Probably not, it's ok.

[LittleMsFOB]

damn this is a controversial post lol. I did a report on gay marriage, and my opinion is that it should be legal. 1. Marriage affords a ton of legal protections that civil unions don't. 2. Many people are opposed to gay marriage b/c of their religious beliefs, but in the US at least, the gov't can't sponsor a specific religion. It's against the Constitution. Because not all religions condem gay marriage, it is unconstitutional to ban gay marriage based on some religion's opinions.

[DoesThisLookInfected?]

Originally Posted by slickguy55

Yeah ok, thats really a huge difference. And yes, you did ridiculously take me out of context.

How? I looked at what you posted, and replied. How much context is there?

Xujhan- How could my opinion be equally biased? I pointed out that he is bias for being in the middle of a situation. And I'm not in the middle of the situation, I just see it, and form an opinion. And because I feel strongly about it, it doesn't mean I'm biased. But if your personally involved with one side of the struggle, then yes you are biased as I stated, but thats not me. See the difference? Probably not, it's ok.

Basically, what I'm getting out of this is that gays can't form a valid opinion on gay marriage...

[Double X]

But Christians can of course...

[Sparks]

I don't believe there's anything wrong with gay marriage. Marriage doesn't mean anyone expects you to have kids, it's a religious/legal matter resulting in a piece of paper that makes authorities view you as a legitimate couple.
Christians believe marriage is sacred and all that stuff, but why would you want to have something to do with the church when it's the reason gays are seen as wrong in the first place?
Go have a happy gay relationship, you don't need a piece of paper or chanting weirdos to make your love legitimate.