what is so wrong about gay marriage???

[Brandon]

People were still gay and bi before this movement actually started.

What do you mean you liked America better? The gay liberation movement started before you were even born. How has America changed now that gays can marry in a whopping 4 states?

I like America better when people were voicing their opinion to the government about gay marriage, but gay marriage still wasn't being allowed. Now, states are either passing gay marriages, considering it, or whatever.

4 states doesn't seem like a noticeable difference, but I think that it's a significant difference. America just isn't the same as it used to be...

Why only a few states?

No, you don't need to marry someone to feel happy.
There's more to marriage than love; it does involve the state. Married couples get benefits that two people simply living together don't.

I know, but it just seems to me that people are making it out that "love" and "happiness" can't be achieved unless you get married. Just because you love someone doesn't mean you have to get married, even if the benefits are good. Just wanted to clarify that.

Oh well. I guess our views are completely different lol. And I'm saying all this in a respectful manner. Like I said, I'm not a homophobe, just an opinion,belief, whatever you wanna call it.

[DoesThisLookInfected?]

Originally Posted by Brandon

I like America better when people were voicing their opinion to the government about gay marriage, but gay marriage still wasn't being allowed. Now, states are either passing gay marriages, considering it, or whatever.

4 states doesn't seem like a noticeable difference, but I think that it's a significant difference. America just isn't the same as it used to be...

It's different for the better

I know, but it just seems to me that people are making it out that "love" and "happiness" can't be achieved unless you get married. Just because you love someone doesn't mean you have to get married, even if the benefits are good. Just wanted to clarify that.

So we should get rid of straight marriages too I guess...

Oh well. I guess our views are completely different lol. And I'm saying all this in a respectful manner. Like I said, I'm not a homophobe, just an opinion,belief, whatever you wanna call it.

I still see it as pretty bigoted to not want gay marriage. Or, at least, want to not have it. There still is no argument for gay marriage that isn't truthful and/or doesn't involve religion.

[ATP787]

Originally Posted by Brandon

4 states doesn't seem like a noticeable difference, but I think that it's a significant difference. America just isn't the same as it used to be...

What negative effect does gay marriage have on America?

Originally Posted by Brandon

I know, but it just seems to me that people are making it out that "love" and "happiness" can't be achieved unless you get married. Just because you love someone doesn't mean you have to get married, even if the benefits are good. Just wanted to clarify that.

Why shouldn't gay couples get the legal benefits that come with marriage? You're denying them their basic rights.

[Brandon]

What negative effect does gay marriage have on America?

Why shouldn't gay couples get the legal benefits that come with marriage? You're denying them their basic rights.

When did I say either of these things? I never said that gay marriage has a negative effect on America. The only thing that I said that closely resembles that is when I said that I didn't want America turning into a bi-sexual country. That's just what I think -- I'm not voicing my opinion over the millions of other people that are living in the US. I never even said that homosexuality is wrong -- all I said was that I didn't like it. And when did I say that homosexuals shouldn't be given their basic rights? Everyone is entitled to their own rights. If gay marriage is legalized, then I think that they should absolutely be given the legal benefits.

All I'm saying is that I don't like gay marriage. Do I have any sort of evidence to support why people should like/dislike what I like/dislike? Of course not. I have no reason for being against gay marriage, I just don't like gay marriage. Simple as that.

A lot of people say that George Bush was a terrible president. Does that make the people who have the belief right? No! It's just an opinion. When I say that America is turning into a bi-sexual, that doesn't make me right and it doesn't make me wrong either...

Besides, the whole "America turning bi-sexual" bit was just my humor.

[ATP787]

Originally Posted by Brandon

When did I say either of these things? I never said that gay marriage has a negative effect on America.

You said you liked America better when gay marriage wasn't allowed. Now you're saying it doesn't have a negative effect? What's the point of keeping gay marriage illegal if it doesn't have a negative effect on America?

Originally Posted by Brandon

Everyone is entitled to their own rights. If gay marriage is legalized, then I think that they should absolutely be given the legal benefits.

Yes, only you don't want gay marriage legalized in all states, in effect not giving them benefits that come with marriage.

[Brandon]

I don't think we understand eachother...

You said you liked America better when gay marriage wasn't allowed. Now you're saying it doesn't have a negative effect? What's the point of keeping gay marriage illegal if it doesn't have a negative effect on America?

It has a negative effect on me, as for America...I'm not to judge because I only resemble one individual in the whole entire US population. Where's the evidence to support that gay marriage won't have a negative effect on America?

Yes, only you don't want gay marriage legalized in all states, in effect not giving them benefits that come with marriage.

I don't want gay marriage to be legalized in all the states, you're right. I don't want gay marriage to be legalized in all the states, but that doesn't mean that if ALL the states were legalized...I'd live somewhere else and totally disrespect gay couples by trying to strip them of their legal benefits that come with marriage. I'm not saying that at all. If the general population vote on allowing gay marriage in all of the 50 states, then I say so be it. I'll accept the fact and move on even though I disagree with gay marriage. Just because I disagree with something, doesn't mean I disrespect them. So if gay marriage became legalized, then I expect the same benefits that straight couples get.

[no.ordinary.dreamer]

Nothing is wrong with gay marriage. The reason the law shouldnt be changed though is because if the law is changed it opens up ways for really old people to marry children and teenagers and for pedophiles to marry children and for people to marry other family members and stuff like that

[ATP787]

Originally Posted by Brandon

It has a negative effect on me, as for America...I'm not to judge because I only resemble one individual in the whole entire US population. Where's the evidence to support that gay marriage won't have a negative effect on America?

You don't want gay marriage legalized in all 50 states. What possible negative effect on you could gay marriage have that warrants the denying of basic civil rights, such as being married in the eye of the state?

There is no evidence to suggest it does have a negative effect. You don't see society falling a part in the 4 states that have gay marriage legalized, do you? This is precisely what white supremacists said about black people being in the military decades ago; they would have a negative effect and destroy the U.S. armed forces. Decades later, guess what. Black people are in the military, and the U.S. military is still the strongest worldwide. Imagine that.

Originally Posted by Brandon

I don't want gay marriage to be legalized in all the states, you're right. I don't want gay marriage to be legalized in all the states, but that doesn't mean that if ALL the states were legalized...I'd live somewhere else and totally disrespect gay couples by trying to strip them of their legal benefits that come with marriage. I'm not saying that at all. If the general population vote on allowing gay marriage in all of the 50 states, then I say so be it. I'll accept the fact and move on even though I disagree with gay marriage. Just because I disagree with something, doesn't mean I disrespect them. So if gay marriage became legalized, then I expect the same benefits that straight couples get.

This is completely irrelevant. This is about legalizing gay marriage, not your reaction to it if it were to become legalized.

You're referring to the aftermath of legalization. We need to legalize it first, and you're against that.

[Grizabella]

Originally Posted by no.ordinary.dreamer

Nothing is wrong with gay marriage. The reason the law shouldnt be changed though is because if the law is changed it opens up ways for really old people to marry children and teenagers and for pedophiles to marry children and for people to marry other family members and stuff like that

How does allowing law abiding citizens equal rights open the door to incest and pedophiles abusing children ?

[Brandon]

You don't want gay marriage legalized in all 50 states. What possible negative effect on you could gay marriage have that warrants the denying of basic civil rights, such as being married in the eye of the state?

As I've said before, I have no reason for being against gay marriage. I just am. The only negative effect that I can think of off the spot is just the fact that I'm living in a world where gay marriage is legalized. That's it. So I'll just say that it's only slightly negative, and more towards neutral if gay marriage was legalized. It's only negative to me because I disagree with it. I have no personal story...just absolutely no reason why I disagree with legalization of gay marriage, but perhaps we all believe in something without having reason to believe.

The way I see it, the traditional marriage is between a man and woman. That's how it's been for a very long time, and that's how I see it. I don't see it as denying of basic civil rights because I don't think that homosexuality wasn't as widely accepted as it is now. I don't think the government purposely tried to deny homosexuals their civil rights -- it just wasn't an acceptable thing back then. Now that society is bringing homosexuality into focus, the whole civil rights, eye of the church, thing is becoming an issue. I don't think homosexuals should be denied civil rights just because they are homosexuals. At the same time, I don't want America, as a whole, to legalize gay marriage, but only a select few states. I think that, like immigrants from another country, there should be a much more complicated process to become a true homosexual couple in America. That's just the way I see it.

You don't see society falling a part in the 4 states that have gay marriage legalized, do you?

No, that's because the majority of people voted to legalize gay marriage. There isn't gonna be a big problem when most people agree on the same subject. However, if a gay couple go somewhere else where the majority of people don't accept gay marriage, then THAT might be a problem. I can't tell the future, so I don't actually know what will happen until it actually happens.

This is precisely what white supremacists said about black people being in the military decades ago; they would have a negative effect and destroy the U.S. armed forces. Decades later, guess what. Black people are in the military, and the U.S. military is still the strongest worldwide. Imagine that.

Good point.

This is completely irrelevant. This is about legalizing gay marriage, not your reaction to it if it were to become legalized.

You're referring to the aftermath of legalization. We need to legalize it first, and you're against that.

It is completely irrelevant, but you were getting things mixed up and thinking I was saying one thing, while I was saying another. I was only defending myself.

[asphyxiated]

Originally Posted by Brandon

As I've said before, I have no reason for being against gay marriage. I just am. The only negative effect that I can think of off the spot is just the fact that I'm living in a world where gay marriage is legalized.

That's bull. People like you shouldn't be allowed voting privileges. Don't like living in a society where everyone is granted the same basic inalienable rights? Then get the hell out.
Against gay marriage? Then don't get one and shut up.

[ATP787]

Originally Posted by Brandon

As I've said before, I have no reason for being against gay marriage. I just am. The only negative effect that I can think of off the spot is just the fact that I'm living in a world where gay marriage is legalized. That's it. So I'll just say that it's only slightly negative, and more towards neutral if gay marriage was legalized. It's only negative to me because I disagree with it. I have no personal story...just absolutely no reason why I disagree with legalization of gay marriage, but perhaps we all believe in something without having reason to believe.

So basically, you're forcing your opinion onto others?

Originally Posted by Brandon

The way I see it, the traditional marriage is between a man and woman. That's how it's been for a very long time, and that's how I see it.

Slavery was the status quo for a very long time. Just because something has been around for decades doesn't make it right.

Religious marriage may be between a man and women; that's up to the church. From a legal standpoint, sex shouldn't matter.

Originally Posted by Brandon

I don't see it as denying of basic civil rights because I don't think that homosexuality wasn't as widely accepted as it is now. I don't think the government purposely tried to deny homosexuals their civil rights -- it just wasn't an acceptable thing back then. Now that society is bringing homosexuality into focus, the whole civil rights, eye of the church, thing is becoming an issue. I don't think homosexuals should be denied civil rights just because they are homosexuals. At the same time, I don't want America, as a whole, to legalize gay marriage, but only a select few states. I think that, like immigrants from another country, there should be a much more complicated process to become a true homosexual couple in America. That's just the way I see it.

You're contradicting yourself. Why would you allow homosexuality in a few states, and not in others? You either agree with it, or you don't.

Originally Posted by Brandon

No, that's because the majority of people voted to legalize gay marriage. There isn't gonna be a big problem when most people agree on the same subject. However, if a gay couple go somewhere else where the majority of people don't accept gay marriage, then THAT might be a problem. I can't tell the future, so I don't actually know what will happen until it actually happens.

Put yourself back in the 1950's. Would you agree with the Supreme Court decision involved in Brown v. Board of Education?

Originally Posted by Brandon

It is completely irrelevant, but you were getting things mixed up and thinking I was saying one thing, while I was saying another. I was only defending myself.

Only, your reaction to a national legalization of gay marriage is irrelevant. The point is, you don't want it to happen to begin with.

[Brandon]

That's bull. People like you shouldn't be allowed voting privileges. Don't like living in a society where everyone is granted the same basic inalienable rights? Then get the hell out.
Against gay marriage? Then don't get one and shut up.

Don't be disrespectful.

Slavery was the status quo for a very long time. Just because something has been around for decades doesn't make it right.

Religious marriage may be between a man and women; that's up to the church. From a legal standpoint, sex shouldn't matter.

I think that comparing slavery and marriage is kind of a bad example, to be honest. I see your point, but at the same time...I don't. Slavory was 100% wrong. Marriage isn't.

Perhaps I haven't made myself clear enough on my viewpoints about gay marriage. And I'm assuming that the more I try and discuss my viewpoints, the more disagreement and anger people have towards me so this is my last post on this thread...

First of all, I'm not a homophobe. A lot of the homosexuals and bi-sexuals that I've known on here for a long period of time are awesome people. Therefore, there are a lot of gay people that I know that are great people. I think that everyone deserves an equal share of the basic rights, which is why I'm saying that I'm against gay marriage, but I can accept it if it comes to the point where gay marriage is legalized in most states.

Basically, I'm for gay people...but I'm against gay marriage. For what reason, I don't know. Hell, maybe I'm not against gay marriage after all and there's some unconscious reason why I think I'm against gay marriage when I'm actually not. All I know is that I'm just against gay marriage because of the fact that I've known marriages to be between a man...and a woman. That's it. You don't need to get all defensive and tell me to move out of the country. I'm not gonna move out of the country just because states are starting to legalize gay marrage. No, if the majority of people are voting for it, then it's benefitting the people and I can't complain. I'm an American, and I like when the American people are happy.

I'm just saying that I'm against gay marriage. Maybe I could of worded things differently, or just not answered any questions in the first place, but there's no need to get hostile.

So basically, you're forcing your opinion onto others?

If you think I'm trying to force my own opinion onto others, then I must be missing something here. That's fine, I guess, but I'm not trying to voice my opinion onto others. I'm just stating my own opinion.

You're contradicting yourself. Why would you allow homosexuality in a few states, and not in others? You either agree with it, or you don't.

I think that homosexuals should be given the chance to do the things they would like to do. I don't think I'm contradicting myself.

Put yourself back in the 1950's. Would you agree with the Supreme Court decision involved in Brown v. Board of Education?

I'm really rusty with history, lol. Uh...yes, because I grew up in Georgia in 1990. I've been around a variety of people since I was a little boy, so of course I'd go for it (if it's the one where schools were desegregated). Even if I was alive back then, I'd still probably want to desegregate schools.

[ATP787]

Originally Posted by Brandon

I think that comparing slavery and marriage is kind of a bad example, to be honest. I see your point, but at the same time...I don't. Slavory was 100% wrong. Marriage isn't.

How is it a bad example? In both situations, it was the status quo for years. In both situations, either party is lacking benefits. Slavery is wrong. Denying gays the right to marry is wrong. The situations seem parallel in some ways to me.

My main point was in response to, "that's how it's been for a very long time."

Originally Posted by Brandon

First of all, I'm not a homophobe. A lot of the homosexuals and bi-sexuals that I've known on here for a long period of time are awesome people. Therefore, there are a lot of gay people that I know that are great people. I think that everyone deserves an equal share of the basic rights, which is why I'm saying that I'm against gay marriage, but I can accept it if it comes to the point where gay marriage is legalized in most states.

You say you can accept gay marriage, but only want it legal in a select few states. That's not accepting gay marriage.

Originally Posted by Brandon

If you think I'm trying to force my own opinion onto others, then I must be missing something here. That's fine, I guess, but I'm not trying to voice my opinion onto others. I'm just stating my own opinion.

You don't want gay marriage allowed in all 50 states. You're taking your own opinion, which revoles solely around you, and forcing that upon those who want to get married. You specifically said you don't want gay marriage allowed. That's forcing your opinion upon others.

Originally Posted by Brandon

I think that homosexuals should be given the chance to do the things they would like to do. I don't think I'm contradicting myself.

Why would you allow gay marriage in a few states, but not all 50? That makes no sense whatsoever. This is yet another reason why I can compare this to slavery. Northern states were free, southern states were slave states. In this situation, some states allow gay marriage, others don't.

Originally Posted by Brandon

I'm really rusty with history, lol. Uh...yes, because I grew up in Georgia in 1990. I've been around a variety of people since I was a little boy, so of course I'd go for it (if it's the one where schools were desegregated). Even if I was alive back then, I'd still probably want to desegregate schools.

Here's the reason I ask.

You said that, "if a gay couple go somewhere else where the majority of people don't accept gay marriage, then THAT might be a problem."

When the Supreme Court ruled in Brown v. Board of education, there were many southern states that completely ignored that ruling. The ruling pissed off the southern states, caused violence, and furthered the debate on segregation.

You said you agreed with that ruling, even though portions of the country had majorities against it. So, what changed here now that gay marriage is unfavorable in certain states?

[thebigmole]

I think a better analogy is comparing the illegalization of gay marriage with the illegalization of interracial marriage.

[Gidig]

Originally Posted by Brandon

Source?

Let me reword then:

I just don't want America turning into a bisexual country, that's all.

Since allowing gay marriage would turn everyone gay

[PhoenixAlive]

Originally Posted by Adean

Too bad that religion can refuse to marry anyone they want already and that complaint is not valid?

Actually, they can't. In Canada at least. Because same-sex marriage is legally allowed, and we changed the definition of marriage, it is not considered a valid reason to refuse to allow a couple to marry. A priest can get into quite a lot of trouble from the Bishop (and he can be sued by the gay couple.)

I would think it would be the same way in the states in which gay marriage has been legalized?

[Khadra]

Originally Posted by PhoenixAlive

Actually, they can't. In Canada at least. Because same-sex marriage is legally allowed, and we changed the definition of marriage, it is not considered a valid reason to refuse to allow a couple to marry. A priest can get into quite a lot of trouble from the Bishop (and he can be sued by the gay couple.)

I would think it would be the same way in the states in which gay marriage has been legalized?

That is definately not true. Same-sex marriage is legal here, but religious institutions are not legally obligated to marry same-sex couples.

The right to freedom of religion enshrined in s. 2(a) of the Charter encompasses the right to believe and entertain the religious beliefs of one's choice, the right to declare one's religious beliefs openly and the right to manifest religious belief by worship, teaching, dissemination and religious practice: Big M Drug Mart, supra, at pp. 336-337. The performance of religious rites is a fundamental aspect of religious practice. It therefore seems clear that state compulsion on religious officials to perform same-sex marriages contrary to their religious beliefs would violate the guarantee of freedom of religion under s. 2(a) of the Charter. It also seems apparent that, absent exceptional circumstances which we cannot at present foresee, such a violation could not be justified under s. 1 of the Charter [emphasis added].15 http://www.carters.ca/pub/bulletin/c...5/chchlb07.htm

[PhoenixAlive]

Originally Posted by Khadra

That is definately not true. Same-sex marriage is legal here, but religious institutions are not legally obligated to marry same-sex couples.

Regardless, priests DO get in trouble for refusing to marry a same-sex couple. My uncle (a Roman-Catholic priest) refused to marry a gay couple and he had to attend an inquiry and file reports and was dressed down by the diocese in which he works. He ended up marrying them just to get peace. Its not as easy as you make it sound.

[Khadra]

Originally Posted by PhoenixAlive

Regardless, priests DO get in trouble for refusing to marry a same-sex couple. My uncle (a Roman-Catholic priest) refused to marry a gay couple and he had to attend an inquiry and file reports and was dressed down by the diocese in which he works. He ended up marrying them just to get peace. Its not as easy as you make it sound.

Well they aren't supposed to. I think there are some variations among the provinces. This is the first I've heard of a priest getting in any kind of trouble (which for the record I completely disagree with). Regardless, it's still not a good enough reason to keep same-sex marriage illegal. They should just make sure that religious institutions are protected.

[Gidig]

Originally Posted by PhoenixAlive

Regardless, priests DO get in trouble for refusing to marry a same-sex couple. My uncle (a Roman-Catholic priest) refused to marry a gay couple and he had to attend an inquiry and file reports and was dressed down by the diocese in which he works. He ended up marrying them just to get peace. Its not as easy as you make it sound.

Well then that's legally wrong and he should have fought it instead of giving in. As far as I know, there is no law saying you're required to marry a couple. That's his problem that he married them if he wasn't able to handle the crap they threw at him.

[PhoenixAlive]

Originally Posted by Gidig

Well then that's legally wrong and he should have fought it instead of giving in. As far as I know, there is no law saying you're required to marry a couple. That's his problem that he married them if he wasn't able to handle the crap they threw at him.

I never said that I didn't think they should have forced him to marry them. I personally think that in a country (or state) where gay marriage is legalized, priests should have to marry them.

I'm just saying that I've heard of this being done. And although it might not have been through legal means, it was definitely a case of intimidation and recourse from his (the priest's) superiors.

[Khadra]

Originally Posted by PhoenixAlive

I never said that I didn't think they should have forced him to marry them. I personally think that in a country (or state) where gay marriage is legalized, priests should have to marry them.

I'm just saying that I've heard of this being done. And although it might not have been through legal means, it was definitely a case of intimidation and recourse from his (the priest's) superiors.

Why? That's so wrong. What's the point of allowing freedom of religion if those people are forced to do things against their belief? Same-sex couples can find willing pastors to marry them or just get married in a court.

[PhoenixAlive]

Originally Posted by Khadra

Why? That's so wrong. What's the point of allowing freedom of religion if those people are forced to do things against their belief? Same-sex couples can find willing pastors to marry them or just get married in a court.

Let's say I am Catholic, have been raised in one church community for my whole life, and I believe in the holy sacrament of marriage, however I am also gay. Why should I and my partner have to run away from our own community and get married in shame? Gay marriage is legal and if a couple has a sentimental attachment to the church and the people of that church, they should not have to go door to door and beg someone else to marry them.

[Grizabella]

Originally Posted by PhoenixAlive

Let's say I am Catholic, have been raised in one church community for my whole life, and I believe in the holy sacrament of marriage, however I am also gay. Why should I and my partner have to run away from our own community and get married in shame? Gay marriage is legal and if a couple has a sentimental attachment to the church and the people of that church, they should not have to go door to door and beg someone else to marry them.

Because as much as you have rights, so does the Church. Catholic dogma says that gay marriage is immoral, and they should be allowed to follow their beliefs within their own system.

[Gidig]

While I'm all for gay-marriage, I don't think someone who doesn't want to marry me to another girl should be required to by law.

[Khadra]

Originally Posted by PhoenixAlive

Let's say I am Catholic, have been raised in one church community for my whole life, and I believe in the holy sacrament of marriage, however I am also gay. Why should I and my partner have to run away from our own community and get married in shame? Gay marriage is legal and if a couple has a sentimental attachment to the church and the people of that church, they should not have to go door to door and beg someone else to marry them.

Because that is infringing on other people's rights. We can't have everything we want in the world. The church is not a business and they do not owe anyone anything. Why would you want to be married by someone who doesn't want to marry you and is only being legally forced to anyway?

One more thing... this is very counterproductive in the gay rights movement. Getting religious people to agree to let same-sex couples have the right to marry is hard enough. If you try to force them to do the marrying they will never agree (which I honestly don't blame them for).

[Oiseau the Little Bird!]

Originally Posted by Brandon

As I've said before, I have no reason for being against gay marriage. I just am.]

"Oh, I'm just against it." Why? You can't have a reasonless opinion.

[Magic.]

Even if I wasn't bisexual I'd still believe that gay marriage is good.
I don't think it's the right of some to deny rights to others just because they don't like it. If you don't agree with gay marriage, don't get one, but don't deny others that choice.
With the religion thing ... I don't know if it's the same in America but just because someone declares themself as a Christian on a form doesn't mean they are one. Just saying the figures are probably a little out ...

[slickguy55]

Originally Posted by Khadra

Absolutely nothing!

I've never heard an argument against same-sex marriage that wasn't a religious one. I don't know why exactly, but a lot of religious people seem to feel they have the right to stomp on other people's rights just because their bible (which may or may not be true) says it's wrong to be gay.

And very few politicians will touch this issue because it would kill their campaign.

Well let me give you a first then...

First off, this is my first post. I am going to tell right now that most of you will disagree with a lot of what I say. I knew that coming here, and I accept that. The reason I am here is because my politics are very important to me. I remember posting on this website years ago, because I was upset about something i guess, I don't even remember what my problem was. But years ago I remember wandering into the political forum and being shocked by how extremely liberal it was. And since this is a site that helps people with problems there are likely to be many sad, vulnerable, and naive young people here who are very impressionable. So I am here to give them the other side of the story, and let them know its ok to be against something that most members of their age group blindly support (not talking only about this topic). So now that I got that out of the way I can begin...

Same sex marriage is wrong because it deceives the true homosexuals in America. They feel that there are politicians that care for them, when in reality they are using their struggle to achieve a political agenda.

The overall agenda of the liberal-socialists, in order to achieve complete success, requires the infiltration of both the family and the church. You can not deny that liberalism is trying to change the church, trying to make the church members be alright with same sex marriage, and it is working. Christians are not the same anymore, they are slowly accepting gay marriage. The agenda is trying to un-do 2000 years of basic church teachings. And for those of you who blame it on the "christians" are uneducated, EVERY major religion in the world rejects homosexuality. This is because gay marriage makes a joke out of family values, and the natural family order. And the natural family order is what gives this country it's values, and if that is destroyed then our country will lost it's core values. Not to mention that this "infiltration of the church" will be a step towards silencing to church's opinion, a lot like the way Communist Russia and other socialist countries attempted to do.

And you say, "what a sec, I thought your argument wasn't going to be religious". It is not religious. I am not saying "GOD WILL STRIKE YOU DOWN", because I don't believe that. I am saying that gay marriage compromises the value of family and 200 years of church teachings, two things that have been a moral guide to this country for 2 centuries.

Originally Posted by PhoenixAlive

I never said that I didn't think they should have forced him to marry them. I personally think that in a country (or state) where gay marriage is legalized, priests should have to marry them.

That is INSANE. You think that priests, leaders of a religion AGAINST gay marriage, should be FORCED to do the Governments will. You think that the bill of rights should be ignored, freedom of religion should be ignored, and that the Government should be able to FORCE religions to do their will? Do you know nothing about history, about dictatorships? Because your comments show that you support dictatorship, because that is the sort of thing that they due. What kind of sick country do you want this to be? Geez, I knew people here would be misinformed and slightly uneducated, but that comment is absolutely insane.

Originally Posted by Brandon

I like America better when people were voicing their opinion to the government about gay marriage, but gay marriage still wasn't being allowed. Now, states are either passing gay marriages, considering it, or whatever.

4 states doesn't seem like a noticeable difference, but I think that it's a significant difference. America just isn't the same as it used to be...

You don't need to feel like the only person who feels this way. In fact a good majority of American citizens are still against gay marriage. I know that sounds surprising considering how gay friendly the media is, but it is true, look it up.

Now they will say "if most people are against it, why is it being legalized in some states". This is because the votes by the PEOPLE are being ignored. Even in California, a state that us SUPER liberal, the people voted against a gay marriage bill. The reason that the people's voice doesn't matter is because corrupt State Supreme Courts dominated by liberals are over turning the people's voice, taking matters into their own sick/twisted hands.

[thebigmole]

Originally Posted by slickguy55

Well let me give you a first then...

First off, this is my first post. I am going to tell right now that most of you will disagree with a lot of what I say. I knew that coming here, and I accept that. The reason I am here is because my politics are very important to me. I remember posting on this website years ago, because I was upset about something i guess, I don't even remember what my problem was. But years ago I remember wandering into the political forum and being shocked by how extremely liberal it was. And since this is a site that helps people with problems there are likely to be many sad, vulnerable, and naive young people here who are very impressionable. So I am here to give them the other side of the story, and let them know its ok to be against something that most members of their age group blindly support (not talking only about this topic). So now that I got that out of the way I can begin...

Same sex marriage is wrong because it deceives the true homosexuals in America. They feel that there are politicians that care for them, when in reality they are using their struggle to achieve a political agenda.

The overall agenda of the liberal-socialists, in order to achieve complete success, requires the infiltration of both the family and the church. You can not deny that liberalism is trying to change the church, trying to make the church members be alright with same sex marriage, and it is working. Christians are not the same anymore, they are slowly accepting gay marriage. The agenda is trying to un-do 2000 years of basic church teachings. And for those of you who blame it on the "christians" are uneducated, EVERY major religion in the world rejects homosexuality. This is because gay marriage makes a joke out of family values, and the natural family order. And the natural family order is what gives this country it's values, and if that is destroyed then our country will lost it's core values. Not to mention that this "infiltration of the church" will be a step towards silencing to church's opinion, a lot like the way Communist Russia and other socialist countries attempted to do.

And you say, "what a sec, I thought your argument wasn't going to be religious". It is not religious. I am not saying "GOD WILL STRIKE YOU DOWN", because I don't believe that. I am saying that gay marriage compromises the value of family and 200 years of church teachings, two things that have been a moral guide to this country for 2 centuries.



That is INSANE. You think that priests, leaders of a religion AGAINST gay marriage, should be FORCED to do the Governments will. You think that the bill of rights should be ignored, freedom of religion should be ignored, and that the Government should be able to FORCE religions to do their will? Do you know nothing about history, about dictatorships? Because your comments show that you support dictatorship, because that is the sort of thing that they due. What kind of sick country do you want this to be? Geez, I knew people here would be misinformed and slightly uneducated, but that comment is absolutely insane.



You don't need to feel like the only person who feels this way. In fact a good majority of American citizens are still against gay marriage. I know that sounds surprising considering how gay friendly the media is, but it is true, look it up.

Now they will say "if most people are against it, why is it being legalized in some states". This is because the votes by the PEOPLE are being ignored. Even in California, a state that us SUPER liberal, the people voted against a gay marriage bill. The reason that the people's voice doesn't matter is because corrupt State Supreme Courts dominated by liberals are over turning the people's voice, taking matters into their own sick/twisted hands.

Your first mistake in this post is slaming liberals so much. It does not make you look good, nor does slamming conservatives make liberals look good.

The part I bolded is in my opinion bullsh*t. I'm sorry but I don't see how a gay couple that has kids does anything to infringe on family values. First off there is no such thing as a typical family anymore. There are single parents, kids whose parents are divorced and then those parents remarry and the kids end up with two families. I don't see why a family that has two parents of the same sex is such a horrible type to add to the bunch. I mean I guess I just don't know what family values are I suppose.

And name a state where the people's voice has been ignored on this issue. Prop 8 has been upheld, and these other states are blue states, the people voted those politicians into office. That's how our government works, it's not a true democracy the people don't vote for every thing they vote for representatives to make those decisions for them.

I just don't understand how someone could have the mindset that discriminating against someone is okay.

[delilah]

i understand christians saying 'marriage' is sacrad, but why are athiests allowed to get married in churches with the title of marriage, when they are technically sinners for not believing, but gays arent?

if it really bothers christians THAT much, i believe civil unions should be allowed, so that gays can have the same legal benefits.

[xXbrooke13Xx]

Originally Posted by delilah

i understand christians saying 'marriage' is sacrad, but why are athiests allowed to get married in churches with the title of marriage, when they are technically sinners for not believing, but gays arent?

if it really bothers christians THAT much, i believe civil unions should be allowed, so that gays can have the same legal benefits.

why should what christians think even matter???
if the couple isnt christia then who the hell gives a shit.
if theyre happy together and want to get married,let them!!!
its their business,not anyone elses for crying out loud!!
christians may have ruled the world a while ago,but people,we are in the 21st century now,news flash! CHRISTIANS DO NOT RULE THE WORLD OR EVEN RUN IT,NOR ARE THEY THE RELIGIOUS MAJORITY ANYMORE.

[ATP787]

Originally Posted by x7x13x

why should what christians think even matter???
if the couple isnt christia then who the hell gives a shit.
if theyre happy together and want to get married,let them!!!
its their business,not anyone elses for crying out loud!!
christians may have ruled the world a while ago,but people,we are in the 21st century now,news flash! CHRISTIANS DO NOT RULE THE WORLD OR EVEN RUN IT,NOR ARE THEY THE RELIGIOUS MAJORITY ANYMORE.

He/She was referring to churches, not marriage from the state. Why should an atheist be allowed to get married in a church?

And uhh, Christians are still the religious majority.

Originally Posted by delilah

if it really bothers christians THAT much, i believe civil unions should be allowed, so that gays can have the same legal benefits.

Civil unions are a joke. They don't offer the same legal benefits as marriage. Gay's deserve marriage. Screw civil unions.

[slickguy55]

Originally Posted by thebigmole

Your first mistake in this post is slaming liberals so much. It does not make you look good, nor does slamming conservatives make liberals look good.

The part I bolded is in my opinion bullsh*t. I'm sorry but I don't see how a gay couple that has kids does anything to infringe on family values. First off there is no such thing as a typical family anymore. There are single parents, kids whose parents are divorced and then those parents remarry and the kids end up with two families. I don't see why a family that has two parents of the same sex is such a horrible type to add to the bunch. I mean I guess I just don't know what family values are I suppose.

And name a state where the people's voice has been ignored on this issue. Prop 8 has been upheld, and these other states are blue states, the people voted those politicians into office. That's how our government works, it's not a true democracy the people don't vote for every thing they vote for representatives to make those decisions for them.

I just don't understand how someone could have the mindset that discriminating against someone is okay.

Your first mistake is assuming that a am conservative because of a view point on one topic. It really doesn't make you look good.

And the part you bolded is not bullsh*t. It disturbs the family and the natural order of things. If kids see gay couples in public and grow to accept it, it disturbs the family. A man and a woman have kids, a man and a man do not. And don't give me that crap about single parents. A single mom has a kid, it still comes from the father, in other words it doesn't disturb the natural order. If this is widely accepted it will weaken the family because it makes the definition of 'family' different, and this country is built on family morals, so therefore it would change the very moral mindset of the country for the worse. Clear enough for you? Are you hanging in there?

And what states? Well lets see, the people in Iowa had laws in place banning gay marriage, and these laws made by THE PEOPLE were over turned by crazy liberals on their supreme court. And California, ONE OF THE MOST LIBERAL STATES IN AMERICA, put it to a vote, and it LOST. And make no mistake about it, it will be overturned in California, therefore ignoring the people. Those facts clear enough for you? You didn't hear these things on MTV, so they must not be true, right? Look it up. Educate yourself.

And who says I'm discriminating anyone? Be as gay as you want. Just stay the hell out of churches, and away from kids, because you have NO right to control those things.

[Khadra]

Originally Posted by slickguy55

Well let me give you a first then...

First off, this is my first post. I am going to tell right now that most of you will disagree with a lot of what I say. I knew that coming here, and I accept that. The reason I am here is because my politics are very important to me. I remember posting on this website years ago, because I was upset about something i guess, I don't even remember what my problem was. But years ago I remember wandering into the political forum and being shocked by how extremely liberal it was. And since this is a site that helps people with problems there are likely to be many sad, vulnerable, and naive young people here who are very impressionable. So I am here to give them the other side of the story, and let them know its ok to be against something that most members of their age group blindly support (not talking only about this topic). So now that I got that out of the way I can begin...

Same sex marriage is wrong because it deceives the true homosexuals in America. They feel that there are politicians that care for them, when in reality they are using their struggle to achieve a political agenda.

The overall agenda of the liberal-socialists, in order to achieve complete success, requires the infiltration of both the family and the church. You can not deny that liberalism is trying to change the church, trying to make the church members be alright with same sex marriage, and it is working. Christians are not the same anymore, they are slowly accepting gay marriage. The agenda is trying to un-do 2000 years of basic church teachings. And for those of you who blame it on the "christians" are uneducated, EVERY major religion in the world rejects homosexuality. This is because gay marriage makes a joke out of family values, and the natural family order. And the natural family order is what gives this country it's values, and if that is destroyed then our country will lost it's core values. Not to mention that this "infiltration of the church" will be a step towards silencing to church's opinion, a lot like the way Communist Russia and other socialist countries attempted to do.

And you say, "what a sec, I thought your argument wasn't going to be religious". It is not religious. I am not saying "GOD WILL STRIKE YOU DOWN", because I don't believe that. I am saying that gay marriage compromises the value of family and 200 years of church teachings, (uhh that would be a religious argument) two things that have been a moral guide to this country for 2 centuries.

I'm getting really tired of the "it's not natural" argument. NOBODY has refuted the evidence that suggests it is natural yet, and I've posted it numerous times. Would you please do so? (find evidence below)

· Birth order – having older male siblings increases the odds that subsequent male children will be gay. This is thought to be due to maternal antibodies that feminize the brain.
· Identical twins have a 50 to 70% chance of being gay. Side note – some people argue this proves that being gay is not genetic. These people lack an advanced understanding of genetics and development. Being gay is not controlled by one simple gene. If it was, that mystery would have been solved.
· There are correlations to being left handed.
· Fruit flies can be made gay by changing a single gene. Note: Humans are not fruit flies.
· Being gay occurs in many animals, most notably penguins in zoos that mate for life and will not convert to heterosexuality, no matter how many fabulous looking female penguins are presented.
· Women with gay children have higher fertility rates.
· If two brothers are gay, there is a higher rate of other family members being gay.
· Pheromones – straight women and gay men are attracted to a pheromone produced in the sweat of men. Gay women and straight men are attracted to a pheromone produced in the urine of women. This study was done using PET and MRI scans, looking at areas of the brain that reveal sexual arousal, not the opinions of the participants. It was also published in a very prestigious journal, Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences

And actually, I can and will deny that liberals are trying to change the church. Well maybe some are but I don't think most are. I know I personally couldn't care less what the church does in it's own policies. I just want it to stay the heck out of government. I am all for freedom of religion. Allowing same-sex marriage is not an infringment on religion. However, prohibiting same-sex marriage IS an infringment by the church on the state.

And how on earth can you use religion to back up your point? Yeah the major religions condemn homosexuality, but they are also VERY OLD. Society changes. We learn and GROW. Progress is a good thing. Just because something has been done for a long time doesn't make it right. If you want to live in the past go ahead, but you have no right to make others do the same. Some of us prefer to move on and let people be happy.

Originally Posted by slickguy55

That is INSANE. You think that priests, leaders of a religion AGAINST gay marriage, should be FORCED to do the Governments will. You think that the bill of rights should be ignored, freedom of religion should be ignored, and that the Government should be able to FORCE religions to do their will? Do you know nothing about history, about dictatorships? Because your comments show that you support dictatorship, because that is the sort of thing that they due. What kind of sick country do you want this to be? Geez, I knew people here would be misinformed and slightly uneducated, but that comment is absolutely insane.

I just wanted to say I am a liberal but I absolutely agree with you on this point. How anyone can suggest priests be forced to marry gay couples is beyond me. I hope you realize that poster does not represent the majority of gay rights supporters though.

[Xujhan]

Originally Posted by slickguy55

Your first mistake is assuming that a am conservative because of a view point on one topic. It really doesn't make you look good.

And the part you bolded is not bullsh*t. It disturbs the family and the natural order of things. If kids see gay couples in public and grow to accept it, it disturbs the family. A man and a woman have kids, a man and a man do not. And don't give me that crap about single parents. A single mom has a kid, it still comes from the father, in other words it doesn't disturb the natural order. If this is widely accepted it will weaken the family because it makes the definition of 'family' different, and this country is built on family morals, so therefore it would change the very moral mindset of the country for the worse. Clear enough for you? Are you hanging in there?

And what states? Well lets see, the people in Iowa had laws in place banning gay marriage, and these laws made by THE PEOPLE were over turned by crazy liberals on their supreme court. And California, ONE OF THE MOST LIBERAL STATES IN AMERICA, put it to a vote, and it LOST. And make no mistake about it, it will be overturned in California, therefore ignoring the people. Those facts clear enough for you? You didn't hear these things on MTV, so they must not be true, right? Look it up. Educate yourself.

And who says I'm discriminating anyone? Be as gay as you want. Just stay the hell out of churches, and away from kids, because you have NO right to control those things.

That is discrimination. "You do not have the right" is always discrimination. Either everyone has a right to something, or no one has it. Any attempt to deprive someone of their equality is discrimination, and that's exactly what you're promoting.

So, from what I can tell your two major arguments are as follows:

-Homosexuality is damaging to children and familes
-Homosexuality does not have the favour of the majority in America

I'll argue the second point first, since it's much easier to dispute. You are right; from what I gather homosexuality isn't supported by a majority of Americans. Yet. But if you're appalled by the liberalism on this site, you should realize that this is the tone of our generation. TeenHelp is reasonably representative of our generation, and our generation is the one about to take center stage in the world. More people our age have liberal ideals - morally, if not always politically - than in any generation previous. Soon we all are going to define our culture, and part of that definition will be an emphasis on acceptance and equality despite our differences. Put bluntly, religious bigotry and the people who embrace it are dying out, and good riddance.

As for your assertion that homosexuality destroys family values , I challenge you to back that up with any logical argument. So far you've done nothing but cry about how it's unnatural, which sounds more like a witch-burning mentality than any belonging in the twenty-first century. Whether you admit it or not, your argument against homosexuality is religious. To an atheist, we are incapable of doing anything outside the "natural order", because being ourselves natural anything we do becomes part of that order. Only religion attempts to cling to concepts like absolute right and absolute wrong. The only way you can prove a non-religious argument against homosexuality is by showing how it is harmful to others, not only claiming that it is, and good luck doing that.

[thebigmole]

Originally Posted by slickguy55

Your first mistake is assuming that a am conservative because of a view point on one topic. It really doesn't make you look good.

And the part you bolded is not bullsh*t. It disturbs the family and the natural order of things. If kids see gay couples in public and grow to accept it, it disturbs the family. A man and a woman have kids, a man and a man do not. And don't give me that crap about single parents. A single mom has a kid, it still comes from the father, in other words it doesn't disturb the natural order. If this is widely accepted it will weaken the family because it makes the definition of 'family' different, and this country is built on family morals, so therefore it would change the very moral mindset of the country for the worse. Clear enough for you? Are you hanging in there?

And what states? Well lets see, the people in Iowa had laws in place banning gay marriage, and these laws made by THE PEOPLE were over turned by crazy liberals on their supreme court. And California, ONE OF THE MOST LIBERAL STATES IN AMERICA, put it to a vote, and it LOST. And make no mistake about it, it will be overturned in California, therefore ignoring the people. Those facts clear enough for you? You didn't hear these things on MTV, so they must not be true, right? Look it up. Educate yourself.

And who says I'm discriminating anyone? Be as gay as you want. Just stay the hell out of churches, and away from kids, because you have NO right to control those things.

Well aren't you a lovely person. First, I never called you a conservative all I said was that slamming liberals was going to make you look bad, which also points to you being a conservative but whatever. Then I said that it's the same in reverse, showing that I'm not found of slamming conservatives.

Also I said "in my opinion" for a reason, I did not state it as a fact because I'm aware that it's just my opinion. But I guess I just don't know what family values are. Since the majority of marriages end in divorce is that a family value, how about all of the parent's out there that let their kids do whatever they want and dress however they want, those values? I know not every family is like that but I don't know one of my friends who doesn't have some issue with their family that I definitely don't think should be considered a value, such as the parents kicking them out of the house, or not giving a crap about how they do in school or neglecting to pay college application fees. And what is the definition of family. Is it two parents of the opposite sex and some kids? So then single parent's must not be families, and I can't imagine what you would consider step families, does it fit the definition to have two sets of parents?

In Iowa those people voted those "crazy liberals" into office, they put them there which means they trusted them to make decisions for their state. Also I don't know if you've ever picked up a paper but the Californian Supreme Court has already voted to uphold the Prop 8 vote. It might be changed one day, but for right now the people are getting what they want.

So your facts are a little wrong, I've never watched MTV in my life and I'm in the process of educating myself at a private University that I chose out of the 18 colleges I was accepted to, what are you doing out of curiosity?

Oh and telling gay people to stay away from churches (there are gay pastors you know) and kids (which is just ridiculous, should the gay kids stay away from kids as well?) is discrimination, just like telling black people to sit in the back of the bus.

[no.ordinary.dreamer]

Originally Posted by Grizabella

How does allowing law abiding citizens equal rights open the door to incest and pedophiles abusing children ?

If they have never been caught before/yet they are considered a law abiding citizen. It also gives them loopholes to use in their favor.

[Grizabella]

Originally Posted by no.ordinary.dreamer

If they have never been caught before/yet they are considered a law abiding citizen. It also gives them loopholes to use in their favor.

What on earth are you talking about? Allowing same sex couples to marry has nothing to do with pedophiles not being caught. You didn't answer my question - WHAT loopholes? Gay couples marrying somehow translates into loophole for pedophiles to molest children?