what is so wrong about gay marriage???

[xXbrooke13Xx]

i personally am bisexual and have a girlfriend. i also have an aunt who is gay and was married at one point in time to another woman,it was weird at first but i got used to it,they ended up splitting up.

i've never really viewed marriage as the end product being children. i've always thought you got married to prove to each other and everyone around you how much you love one another and how much you care about the other person. to me marriage says you're willing to give up everything for that person because you care for them and love them so much,not because you want kids,even if you do want kids.

my religion has nothing to do with how i view gay marriage,im pagan for those of you who care/were wondering. we dont really discriminate against anyone except thoe who discriminate against us,and we give them a fair chance first anyways so.

but i kinda like debating and gay marriage happens to be in my top 3 for faav debate topics.

so what in the world is so damn wrong with two people of the same sex getting married???? please tell me,im open to others opinions i swear,as long as your open to mine.

[PhoenixAlive]

Absolutely nothing wrong with it, I totally agree with you.

What I do understand is that for some people with conservative or religious views, it is using the specific term marriage that they find offensive, because they believe that the term marriage is sacred and according to their religion, it cannot include gay couples. I used to think this way, however sometime in the past year someone I love who is part of the GLBTQ community changed my mind.

[xXbrooke13Xx]

i wrote this poem about love and,its hard to explain. i'll just post it on here and tell you why i wrote it.

[Grizabella]

The arguments against same sex marriage are obviously weak, and that's why most western countries, and slowly some of the states, are beginning to allow it.

[PhoenixAlive]

Originally Posted by Grizabella

The arguments against same sex marriage are obviously weak, and that's why most western countries, and slowly some of the states, are beginning to allow it.

I live in Canada, and I've always wondered why each state has to legalize same sex marriage individually. Why can't the country do it as a whole? That makes more sense to me.

[Grizabella]

Originally Posted by PhoenixAlive

I live in Canada, and I've always wondered why each state has to legalize same sex marriage individually. Why can't the country do it as a whole? That makes more sense to me.

From what I understand, the individual states are very sensitive about the federal government violating the right of the states to govern themselves...I guess there's confusion or tension in what areas the federal government should handle, and what areas the states should handle?

[PhoenixAlive]

That makes sense, I guess... But considering the fact that this is such a big issue (for both those for and against) I would think that the US government would hold a referendum, take a stand, as many other countries have already done. Human rights are being violated by the fact that same-sex marriage is not recognized in the US. For a nation as forward thinking and advanced as the US is, they seem to be behind the times on this issue... But that's just my opinion.

[Grizabella]

The states is often criticized for being behind the times. It's fallen behind the rest of the western countries in many social issues - universal health care, gay marriage, capital punishment...

[xXbrooke13Xx]

love knows not of race
love knows not of color
love knows not of gender
love knows not of religion
love knows not of beleifies
love knows not f what it can not have
for there is no limit for love

love is what it is,
love

shouldn't everyone have a chance at love?
shouldn't everyone have a chance at showing their love?


this is that poem i wrote. we had had a debate in my US History class that day,majority of my class are christians/catholics,then there was me and my two friends lol. we were like being attacked,only my friends know im bisexual,although im pretty sure the rest of them have figured it out,im not ashamed of it so i dont really hide it.

some of the girls(they were on the other side of the classroom from me and my friends,good thing too,my one friend and me were getting very mad) decided they would say something like "gays will burn in hell" "being gay is against the bible" "god wanted us to get married so we could have kids,you cant have kids in a gay marriage so its stupid". well me and my friends decided to come back at their "being gay is against the bible" comment with "nowhere, NOWHERE, in the bible does it directly come out and say BEING GAY IS NOT ALLOWED, now does it?" let me tell you, they did not like that, at all. they went off on us soooo bad. but we were just telling them the truth, because nowhere in the bible does it come out and say being gay is not allowed, right?

[PhoenixAlive]

Actually, it does... But that was in the old testament. After Jesus died for our sins, I believe this changed.

[xXbrooke13Xx]

it acualy really says gay marriage is not allowed?

huh i didnt know that,i wasnt christian for very long,as soon as i realized i could be what i wanted i changed my religion because i just did not beleive in the stuff my catecitsim(spelled wrong i know sorry idk how to spell it) teachers were trying to make me learn and beleive,i was all like umm,what about how this got here,you expect me to beleive that one guy made all this? well i think thats bs but you can beleive what you like and i wont hate you for it,i listened to their opinions but they would not listen to mine so i left and never looked back. if they would have answered some of my questions maybe i would have stayed but i decided being pagan fits me and my beleifs better.

i cant beleive the bible seriousy says that though,cause they never taught us that and when we said that to the kids in class they shut up real fast.

[Gidig]

If you live your life directly by the bible, you're living a life of contradiction. Really.
Plus, we have freedom of religion, expect the Christians (The anti-gay Christians) can stand and say we shouldn't be allowed to be married.

In the Bill of Rights it gives the States the power over their state if it is not stated in the constitution. But yeah. So since we can't get all of America to agree at once, we have to go one stupid little state at a time. *Is grumpy about gay-marriage*

[PhoenixAlive]

Yeah, luckily not all of us Christians are fundamentalist radicals who believe that every single word in the bible is to be taken literally without paying attention to the context and the time and place in the world where it was written.

[Gidig]

I didn't mean to put it that way, I'm sorry you took it like that.

There are many people who say that homosexuality is wrong because it's said so in the bible. Yet, many Christians are okay with war, or agree that occasionally it's okay to shoot someone. Yet I don't see the bible saying you can "kill thy neighbor". Plus, it says "love thy neighbor" not "love thy straight neighbor".

I'm just saying there are too many people who DO take it literally word for word.

[xXbrooke13Xx]

those people,ad no offense to anyone who is one of thos people,but they scare me,like seriously scare me.

[PhoenixAlive]

Originally Posted by Gidig

I didn't mean to put it that way, I'm sorry you took it like that.

There are many people who say that homosexuality is wrong because it's said so in the bible. Yet, many Christians are okay with war, or agree that occasionally it's okay to shoot someone. Yet I don't see the bible saying you can "kill thy neighbor". Plus, it says "love thy neighbor" not "love thy straight neighbor".

I'm just saying there are too many people who DO take it literally word for word.

I didn't take what you said personally at all, actually. No worries. I just don't like it when extremists make the rest of us look bad, and unfortunately that happens a lot.

Oh, in case you're interested, x7x13x, here are the passages in the bible which are against homosexuality.

Leviticus 20:13 and Leviticus 18:22.

"If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads."

Originally Posted by x7x13x

those people,ad no offense to anyone who is one of thos people,but they scare me,like seriously scare me.

They scare me too. I am so glad that our government is now completely separate from religion so that laws can't be made by people who think like this.

[TheKnight]

Originally Posted by x7x13x

so what in the world is so damn wrong with two people of the same sex getting married???? please tell me,im open to others opinions i swear,as long as your open to mine.

Well, in our country there is this thing called freedom of religion, but essentially, some people believe that God forbids gay marriage (which, if one reads the Bible, He does). That's about the extent of the argument.

[Grizabella]

Leviticus 20:13 and Leviticus 18:22.

"If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads."

That's actual homosexual acts. It doesn't say anything about just having homosexual feelings though.

[PhoenixAlive]

Originally Posted by Grizabella

That's actual homosexual acts. It doesn't say anything about just having homosexual feelings though.

You're right, but then people who are gay would never ever be able to have physical relationships without it being a sin against God. I think that's a bit unrealistic, don't you?

[xXbrooke13Xx]

Originally Posted by TheKnight

Well, in our country there is this thing called freedom of religion, but essentially, some people believe that God forbids gay marriage (which, if one reads the Bible, He does). That's about the extent of the argument.

thats the thing though,the thing that really irks me!! the US doesnt make laws based off of certain religions,yet tis one law seems to be based off of one certain religion,why? what makes them so damn special? why is the government pleasing the christians/catholics by not over-riding all of the states and saying you know what its pursuit of happiness,its not hurting or killing anyone that they are getting married(except for other gays when people decide they need to retaliate) so therefore it should be allowed should it not?

i swear if i ever become president,i will be hated by christans and catholics everywhere.

[Khadra]

Absolutely nothing!

I've never heard an argument against same-sex marriage that wasn't a religious one. I don't know why exactly, but a lot of religious people seem to feel they have the right to stomp on other people's rights just because their bible (which may or may not be true) says it's wrong to be gay.

And very few politicians will touch this issue because it would kill their campaign.

[Heretic]

25% of Christians make the other 75% look bad.

Homosexuality is outlined in the Bible, but that was more than two thousand years ago, and beyond that, the Bible itself has so many contradictions and questionable statements that taking it literally is downright ignorant.

[xXbrooke13Xx]

you know what i think needs to happen?

i think we need to get a gay president in office,or at least someone in office who would support gay marriage without a problem.

[Grizabella]

Originally Posted by x7x13x

you know what i think needs to happen?

i think we need to get a gay president in office,or at least someone in office who would support gay marriage without a problem.

Has Obama made his stance on the issue known?

[Khadra]

Originally Posted by x7x13x

you know what i think needs to happen?

i think we need to get a gay president in office,or at least someone in office who would support gay marriage without a problem.

That would be nice but it's not likely to happen anytime soon. The majority of Americans are still christian, so a politician supporting gay marriage would never get voted in. Or at least, even if the politician did support gay marriage he/she would never admit it. It would be the end of their political campaign.

Originally Posted by Grizabella

Has Obama made his stance on the issue known?

I'm pretty sure he supports civil unions of some type, but definitely not gay marriage.

[xXbrooke13Xx]

not yet that i know of,but he needs to soon,if he doesnt then everyones just going to assume that hes against it. he seems like the kind of person whod be okay with it,and i mean hes all about change right? well why not change life for the gay community and allow them the thing they really want but are being denied just because certain religions think its wrong,maybe someone should write to him.

[thebigmole]

I have a question to add to this thread though I don't know if it will get answered since only one person has posted who is against gay marriage. But I'll ask anyway

To those who oppose gay marriage, if we took the word marriage out would it then be ok? I don't know if you know this or not but in the US (at least) every couple needs to get a marriage lisense before they are married so that they can have all of the legal benefits. So if we allowed gay couples to get those lisenses but just took the marriage word out would you still have a problem?

[sushi_error]

Originally Posted by Khadra

That would be nice but it's not likely to happen anytime soon. The majority of Americans are still christian, so a politician supporting gay marriage would never get voted in. Or at least, even if the politician did support gay marriage he/she would never admit it. It would be the end of their political campaign.



I'm pretty sure he supports civil unions of some type, but definitely not gay marriage.

True, but there are still many Americans who oppose gay marriage, but are not Christians. And let's not forget that there are other religions out there that are also against gay marriage, but Christianity has been the most out-spoken.

[Khadra]

Originally Posted by sushi_error

True, but there are still many Americans who oppose gay marriage, but are not Christians. And let's not forget that there are other religions out there that are also against gay marriage, but Christianity has been the most out-spoken.

I recognize that there are other religions against gay marriage, but I've honestly never heard of anyone opposing gay marriage that isn't religious. If you can tell me the name of someone that is opposed to it and not religious, let me know. Also, christians are still the majority of the population in total, not just more than atheists, but more than all other religions/non-religions combined.

EDIT: Here are some stats, courtesy of wikipedia

According to a 2007 survey,[11] the following is the order of religious preferences in the United States:

• Christian: (78.4%)
  • Protestant (51.3%)
  • Roman Catholic (23.9%)
  • LDS (1.7%)
  • Jehovah's Witness (0.7%)
  • Orthodox (0.6%)
  • other Christian (0.3%)
• no religion (16.1%)
• Jewish (1.7%)
• Buddhist (0.7%)
• Muslim (0.6%)
• Hindu (0.4%)
• other (1.2%)

[sushi_error]

Originally Posted by Khadra

I recognize that there are other religions against gay marriage, but I've honestly never heard of anyone opposing gay marriage that isn't religious. If you can tell me the name of someone that is opposed to it and not religious, let me know. Also, christians are still the majority of the population in total, not just more than atheists, but more than all other religions/non-religions combined.

EDIT: Here are some stats, courtesy of wikipedia

According to a 2007 survey,[11] the following is the order of religious preferences in the United States:

• Christian: (78.4%)
  • Protestant (51.3%)
  • Roman Catholic (23.9%)
  • LDS (1.7%)
  • Jehovah's Witness (0.7%)
  • Orthodox (0.6%)
  • other Christian (0.3%)
• no religion (16.1%)
• Jewish (1.7%)
• Buddhist (0.7%)
• Muslim (0.6%)
• Hindu (0.4%)
• other (1.2%)

I know all of that. I am only saying that there are many Americans who are not Christians, but are against gay marriage for one reason or another. You also have to take into account people who are against homosexuality due to cultural/societal factors.

[Khadra]

Originally Posted by sushi_error

I know all of that. I am only saying that there are many Americans who are not Christians, but are against gay marriage for one reason or another.

There are MANY? Where is your proof? And what difference does it make if their numbers and efforts are too insignificant to have an impact?

[sushi_error]

Originally Posted by Khadra

There are MANY? Where is your proof? And what difference does it make if their numbers and efforts are too insignificant to have an impact?

The majority of Americans ARE Christians, but there is still a good amount of people who do not practice Christianity. Based on your statistics, how many of 78% of American Christians are actually against gay marriage? Those statistics are null as they only show American's religion demographics, not who actually is for or against gay marriage.

I disagree with your last sentiment as I believe that everyone, Christian or not, plays a huge role on how American society functions. I hope that makes some sense. And the main point of my argument is that there are various non-Christian religions that are against homosexuality and I think there are times when people do not keep in mind. It doesn't matter if the numbers are small, they are still there.

[Casey.]

Originally Posted by Grizabella

From what I understand, the individual states are very sensitive about the federal government violating the right of the states to govern themselves...I guess there's confusion or tension in what areas the federal government should handle, and what areas the states should handle?

Yes. Almost exactly right.

Originally Posted by x7x13x

thats the thing though,the thing that really irks me!! the US doesnt make laws based off of certain religions,yet tis one law seems to be based off of one certain religion,why? what makes them so damn special? why is the government pleasing the christians/catholics by not over-riding all of the states and saying you know what its pursuit of happiness,its not hurting or killing anyone that they are getting married(except for other gays when people decide they need to retaliate) so therefore it should be allowed should it not?

I'm going to explain this, let me know if it doesn't make sense, alright? Most people know the U.S had a civil war right? It was in the 1860s. Some states were for a strong federal government, like the government being able to make gay marriage legal in all states. Some were for a strong State Government, each state making their own laws, as long as it didn't go against the federal laws, the U.S Constitution for example. The Founders chose to make it so that the States had the most power. So if a state doesn't want Gay Marriage, they can't be forced into it. I hope that makes sense.

Originally Posted by thebigmole

I have a question to add to this thread though I don't know if it will get answered since only one person has posted who is against gay marriage. But I'll ask anyway

To those who oppose gay marriage, if we took the word marriage out would it then be ok? I don't know if you know this or not but in the US (at least) every couple needs to get a marriage lisense before they are married so that they can have all of the legal benefits. So if we allowed gay couples to get those lisenses but just took the marriage word out would you still have a problem?

That's like a civil union, no?

My opinion, is that gays should be allowed to marry, as I want to get married when I find the right person, be it a girl or a guy, one day.

[InSovietRussiaORGASMGotU]

Originally Posted by x7x13x

i personally am bisexual and have a girlfriend. i also have an aunt who is gay and was married at one point in time to another woman,it was weird at first but i got used to it,they ended up splitting up.

i've never really viewed marriage as the end product being children. i've always thought you got married to prove to each other and everyone around you how much you love one another and how much you care about the other person. to me marriage says you're willing to give up everything for that person because you care for them and love them so much,not because you want kids,even if you do want kids.

my religion has nothing to do with how i view gay marriage,im pagan for those of you who care/were wondering. we dont really discriminate against anyone except thoe who discriminate against us,and we give them a fair chance first anyways so.

but i kinda like debating and gay marriage happens to be in my top 3 for faav debate topics.

so what in the world is so damn wrong with two people of the same sex getting married???? please tell me,im open to others opinions i swear,as long as your open to mine.

I think one common reason is that gay marriage would be against one's religious beliefs. Some people are lenient enough to allow it whereas others are not so lenient. But there are other reasons, some including cultural beliefs where homosexuality may not be allowed, and those who adhere to their culture and practice it, may also stand by that. Another reason is people who are very conservative adhere to the definition of a marriage consisting of one man and one woman, something a gay marriage violates.

Originally Posted by Khadra

According to a 2007 survey,[11] the following is the order of religious preferences in the United States:

• Christian: (78.4%)
  • Protestant (51.3%)
  • Roman Catholic (23.9%)
  • LDS (1.7%)
  • Jehovah's Witness (0.7%)
  • Orthodox (0.6%)
  • other Christian (0.3%)
• no religion (16.1%)
• Jewish (1.7%)
• Buddhist (0.7%)
• Muslim (0.6%)
• Hindu (0.4%)
• other (1.2%)

This list is very nice if you are concerned about the percentages of the US population for different religions. However, it does not indicate the percentage of the US or of each religion that opposes gay marriage. Christianity teaches to oppose gay marriage but not all Christians do. Your stats would be valid if they are of how many oppose gay marriage, however, they are not. You can guess how many are opposed but that guess would need some evidence for, otherwise I can guess a completely different number.

[Khadra]

Originally Posted by YourNightmare

This list is very nice if you are concerned about the percentages of the US population for different religions. However, it does not indicate the percentage of the US or of each religion that opposes gay marriage. Christianity teaches to oppose gay marriage but not all Christians do. Your stats would be valid if they are of how many oppose gay marriage, however, they are not. You can guess how many are opposed but that guess would need some evidence for, otherwise I can guess a completely different number.

I never claimed it to be a perfect representation, but it is a pretty clear one. The bottom line is that christian groups in the US are the main force behind the anti-gay marriage movement in the US. Yes, other people from other religions oppose gay marriage, but they don't make nearly the fuss about it as the christians are doing. You can be politcially correct if you want and list the religions against gay marriage, but we all know the major movements are christian based in the US.

[xXbrooke13Xx]

Originally Posted by Casey

Yes. Almost exactly right.

I'm going to explain this, let me know if it doesn't make sense, alright? Most people know the U.S had a civil war right? It was in the 1860s. Some states were for a strong federal government, like the government being able to make gay marriage legal in all states. Some were for a strong State Government, each state making their own laws, as long as it didn't go against the federal laws, the U.S Constitution for example. The Founders chose to make it so that the States had the most power. So if a state doesn't want Gay Marriage, they can't be forced into it. I hope that makes sense.

That's like a civil union, no?

My opinion, is that gays should be allowed to marry, as I want to get married when I find the right person, be it a girl or a guy, one day.

the states choosing their laws thing i get an d i like,but this kind of goes against pursuit of happiness does it not? gays are being severly harmed,sometimes even killed,just because some people dont want them to get married. pursuit of happiness states that as long as your not hurting anyone else in pursuing your happiness then it shouldnt matter,so then why does it in this particular sitation? gays arent hurting anyone now are they?

[PhoenixAlive]

Originally Posted by x7x13x

the states choosing their laws thing i get an d i like,but this kind of goes against pursuit of happiness does it not? gays are being severly harmed,sometimes even killed,just because some people dont want them to get married. pursuit of happiness states that as long as your not hurting anyone else in pursuing your happiness then it shouldnt matter,so then why does it in this particular sitation? gays arent hurting anyone now are they?

Perhaps your government simply wants to avoid (or postpone) causing a stir. Especially with his new presidency, Obama wouldn't want to alienate the people who voted him in quite yet. And there are a lot of less controversial issues to be dealt with that can show he is making use of his time in office. I'm sure that right now, much more time and energy is going into stimulating and rebooting the economy than dealing with any sort of equality issues.

Originally Posted by Khadra

I never claimed it to be a perfect representation, but it is a pretty clear one. The bottom line is that christian groups in the US are the main force behind the anti-gay marriage movement in the US. Yes, other people from other religions oppose gay marriage, but they don't make nearly the fuss about it as the christians are doing. You can be politcially correct if you want and list the religions against gay marriage, but we all know the major movements are christian based in the US.

There are many, many Christians (including myself) who support the gay movement. The ones who don't are mainly the outspoken minority who make the rest of us look bad. Also, don't forget the many Christian denominations which have publicly changed their policies regarding homosexuality and same-sex marriage. The world is changing, and religion is changing with it. Don't paint us all with the same brush.

[thebigmole]

Hey Khadra my mother is agnostic and she is against gay marriage. She's all for civil unions and equal rights and everything but like many she she's marriage between a man and a woman (just cause that's the way it's always been) and she doesn't want gay marriages thrown into her face, like she doesn't want to open that paper and see pictures from a gay ceremony. We've argued extensively on this, I told her people used to think the same way about interracial unions etc. It's just what she believes but it's not based in religion at all.

Originally Posted by PhoenixAlive

Leviticus 20:13 and Leviticus 18:22.

"If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads."

A) doesn't mention lesbians (its very specific), B) A law onbly for the Jews, they never enforced it outside Judasm, C) specific about some (uncertain of context) act of penile intercourse, aa probably anal sex. Not all gay men who are sexually active have anal.

Taking the word marriage out doesn't cut it. History has shown time after time 'equal but seperate' doesn't work. Not to mention, what about religious gays who want to get married? There are religios sects and denominations that are fine with gays.. look at the Quakers.

Why no gay marriage? Attitudes can take awhile to change, particularly attitudes that have been firmly made in childhood. People don't want to question themselves

Oh, more importantly, its Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve. Filthy gays....

Secular people who are against gay marriage are only so due to the religios climate they grew up in. There is no good secular reason to make marriage exclusively between man and woman. Just because someone isn't religious doesn't mean a certain religious view point hasnt effected them.

And this 'thrown in your face' nonsense is ridiculas. Everytime I turn on my tv, I get lame ass heterosexuality thrown in my face (I personally find it boring and annoying), straights should return the decency and put up with it. But its nice to hear how people think their right not to see something in a paper they dont want to particularly see out weighs the rights of people for their actual lives.

[thebigmole]

Originally Posted by Invert

A) doesn't mention lesbians (its very specific), B) A law onbly for the Jews, they never enforced it outside Judasm, C) specific about some (uncertain of context) act of penile intercourse, aa probably anal sex. Not all gay men who are sexually active have anal.

Taking the word marriage out doesn't cut it. History has shown time after time 'equal but seperate' doesn't work. Not to mention, what about religious gays who want to get married? There are religios sects and denominations that are fine with gays.. look at the Quakers.

Why no gay marriage? Attitudes can take awhile to change, particularly attitudes that have been firmly made in childhood. People don't want to question themselves

Oh, more importantly, its Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve. Filthy gays....

Secular people who are against gay marriage are only so due to the religios climate they grew up in. There is no good secular reason to make marriage exclusively between man and woman. Just because someone isn't religious doesn't mean a certain religious view point hasnt effected them.

And this 'thrown in your face' nonsense is ridiculas. Everytime I turn on my tv, I get lame ass heterosexuality thrown in my face (I personally find it boring and annoying), straights should return the decency and put up with it. But its nice to hear how people think their right not to see something in a paper they dont want to particularly see out weighs the rights of people for their actual lives.

But taking out and replacing the word marriage isn't making it separate. Religious ceremonies are already separate from the legal side of marriage. I was saying that we take the word marriage out of the legal side for ALL couples. Then it's just equal, no separate. As for gay couples who want a religious ceremony, well then they've got to work to find the church that will let them, we absolutely CANNOT force churches to do anything because that would be infringment on the 1st Amendment. And honestly the ceremony has nothing to do with a marriage, it has nothing to do with getting all the legal benefits that come along with it.

Also as for the "thrown in your face" thing, I wasn't agreeing with my mother. But I do understand to an extent where she is coming from. If we really want this transition to work then there needs to be compromise on both sides. If gay marriages start to become very public and you can't open a paper without seeing one we will just be alienating the other side and we shouldn't want to do that, it will solve nothing.