Re: Abortion is wrong.
 

Not gonna lie, I didn't read through all of the post, so sorry if my point has been made already.

I agree that you shouldn't get an abortion each time you become pregnant, but I do think that there are instances where abortion is necessary. The two conditions I can think of right now are:
1. If you became pregnant after being raped. There are morning after pills and such, but if you still became pregnant, I think that is 100% okay to have an abortion.
2. If you become pregnant, but your body (for some reason) cannot handle it and you begin to suffer. If the baby might kill the women (for some rare reason, I am not sure) then I think an abortion is fine. (A reason might be that the women does not have enough strength to support two lives)

Just a couple thoughts to add in.

-Amy

Re: Abortion is wrong.
 

Re: Abortion is wrong.
 

Well that's a nice theory however if I was a 14 year old girl and needed a "parental figure" to approve of my abortion, well let's just say I'm sure I could find one, even if they aren't quite a parental figure.

Now you started it so here I go. First you should really appreciate the fact that you are a guy and never have to go through the trama of being raped and then getting pregnant. Seriously thank your lucky stars every day for that. So I don't even know how to explain to you why it's perfectly acceptable for a woman in such a circumstance to have a abortion because you couldn't possibly understand the emotional harm.

And you know what I'd really wish you'd stop with this "I'm the embryo". Tell me do you know for a fact that your mother even considered abortion. Because if she didn't then your experience in your mother's womb was no different than mine. And you are not a embryo you were once a long time ago, before you were a human being, but now you're not so please stop saying you are. It just makes no sense, I honestly don't believe that you remember being in your mother's womb at the time most abortions occur. So no I don't think that you are any closer to this that I am and I still believe that because you are a guy I'm much closer to this topic than you'll ever be because it deals with MY rights NOT YOURS.

Re: Abortion is wrong.
 

Just the 'reverse sexism' is annoying. Many are forgetting there's two people in regards to this whole event - three if you count the father - the unexpected embryo and the girl who didn't expect to get pregnant. When anyone says terminate it, kinda - in an odd way - feels like they're saying abort me. Because that, all of that, is my past - the poverty, the run away father, the possible shame of getting knocked up, etc. That's my origins. That's where I come from, which is closer than a girl who gets pregnant may ever get - because she might have it stable.

---------

Big Mole, growing up like most people, and never having these questions in your life. No, you don't. You don't believe me? Hmm, let's see - it's because you weren't taken away from the woman you lived nine months in! So don't you ever DARE tell me that you had anything closely resembling that, because you don't and you never will know what that's like. Well, guess what? I remember. And I guess you never heard that guys could get raped too? Maybe not as often, but it does happen... thus, all we're really talking about is pregnancy as something that only girls go through.

Re: Abortion is wrong.
 

Ok I'm still confused about how you're experience of being adopted has ANYTHING to do with abortion. For the third time now you haven't answered a question I have asked. Do you know for a fact your mother considered abortion? Because if she did not then you have NO experience in this subject.

Oh and yes I do know that guys can be raped that's why I added the AND PREGNANT part because that part you won't ever have to experience. An expected pregnancy, and unexpected pregnancy, and a pregnancy that resulted from rape are all completely different emotional experiences.

Re: Abortion is wrong.
 

When you don't have the ability to take care of a child, the woman has two choices she can be weak by aborting or strong by putting the child up for adoption. My Mom was strong, she went with adoption. Like all women in this situation she was poor, my father ran off on her, she went through it alone because of the way the country thinks about pregnancy prior to marriage - a lot more so than here in the states. Not one of those led her to abort me out of fear, she remained strong and brave with no one there to help her through and helped provide a better life for me. THAT woman is a hero, she made the hardest decision anyone can make.

I have more experience than any girl who has a stable pregnancy could ever get. Because it's my origins. It's something both her and I went through, which is hard to explain - but, it's kind of like sharing souls for nine months. As someone personally connected to this I am naturally more attached to it than any girl who has never been pregnant or has a stable pregnancy & especially those who grew up with their natural parents. It runs through my veins and in my blood.

I am still very much connected to that moment in time when I was taken away as are others. I won't be afraid to admit that I repressed a couple of times to PRIMAL degrees for a woman I've never even seen. I've felt it true to my core though. I was frozen solid once, afraid and angry. The other time I broke down and cried while just wanting to be back with her. Keep in mind, I never met her. These experiences many adoptees can account for and have told of. So, there is an inherent connection - a connection that's felt in the heart for someone we never met. That says a lot, that alone speaks volumes. How do I know I remember being the embryo? Because I grew nine months inside her and that's how she flows through me. Look in any books about adoptees and orphans, you will see the IMMENSE research that has been put into the embryotic stage of life - and how, contrary to what people may think, are alive.

I miss her, I always will. But, I am thankful for what she did for me and I'm happy to be alive.

Re: Abortion is wrong.
 

Re: Abortion is wrong.
 

I would have been with you in that post I really would have been. But you made a mistake in your first sentence and you lost me again. It is NOT weak to have an abortion, and I'm sure every woman out there who has done it would take SERIOUS offense to that statement. It (as I have said at least twice) is not in any way an easy decision. It is a difficult and hard choice that the woman makes because she feels it is the right choice for her and her child. I don't think you understand the degree of strength it takes for a woman to realize that she cannot have a child, by having a child I'm talking going through with the pregnancy. That means not having the money to go through with the prenatal care (yes yes I know your mother was poor but since you have failed twice to tell me how old she was I can't really factor her in because I don't know if she was old enough to get a job and care for herself let alone medical bills).


I get that this means something to you but it really means something to me. I get VERY upset when talking about this, I don't know why but I take any insults to women who have had abortions very personally. So I do have a level of emotional attachment to the situation, who are you to tell me it's not as deep as yours when you can't even know for sure that your mother even considered abortion. You are assuming because she was poor and alone she did, but she could have been like you, or she could have been very religious and it might not have even crossed her mind.

Re: Abortion is wrong.
 

Re: Abortion is wrong.
 

If a woman gets an abortion out of fear of someone finding out she got pregnant, or she doesn't feel like spending the money but may be able to attain it through support, or plain out like the ignorant comment way below stated simply because she doesn't want to be pregnant for no other reason than just 'cuz not now.... I do have a problem with that and consider that weak.

Keep in mind, as I keep trying to reiterate, not all women who do it are weak. I've never even used weak when stating a woman who got raped, just I think it would be more psychologically painful for her than giving it life and knowing she gave it a better life. Only those who give up without really trying are weak in my eyes, because there's alternatives that should be taken into account first. There's a distinct difference and that's why I said I don't think it should be illegal, only reserved for the extreme cases....

But, guess for you abortion just means any case without trying anything else first? Not using it as the last choice if necessary.

You say it's as deeply personal for you, but what you continue to avoid is how. Just cuz'? That's not as deep as it running through your blood. Now if you were an adoptee, orphan, or your parents told you that they were considering abortion or giving you away when you were a baby - you don't have as strong a connection as everyone else. A connection? Yes, maybe, perhaps. But it would in no way reach the level of the groups of people I just named.

Re: Abortion is wrong.
 

I'm sorry but I think being a woman is a pretty damn strong connection. You see here's where we differ. I don't believe that an embryo is a person, I don't believe it is a human being, and therefore I do not factor it's feelings (since it doesn't have any) into the situation. That might seem harsh to you but it's what I believe because it's what the basic development facts tell me. At the time that the majority of abortions occur the "child" is in the embryotic stage, or the very beginnings of the fetal stage, and to me that is not a person and should not get more rights than a very alive very much person that is carrying that embryo.

Here's an analogy I like. Of course it only works if you don't think that illegal immagrants deserve the same rights as legal citizens. But here we go would you give the same rights to an illegal citizen as a legal one, even if the illegal citizen is going through the process of becoming a citizen do you give them those rights before they are one? I wouldn't because they are not a legal citizen and they are not the same.

Listen we will never agree because we differ on the "rights of the embryo/fetus" But I will always win because abortion will never be illegal again.

Re: Abortion is wrong.
 

Wait..., you're telling me that when you were developing and had no brain as an embryo, just a clump of dividing cells, you have a memory of that? You have a memory of something even though at that time, you had no brain? Show me this research saying that an embryo is able to remember something despite lacking a brain and most of the rest of the basic body form. For this reason, I don't believe for a moment you remember anything of being in your mother's womb.

The last line is what I agree with, and as I agree with that, I support abortion if the parents are unfit (financially, mentally, physically and/or marriage-wise), don't want the child, etc... . Why should the parents take in the child if they can hardly support themselves? Naturally adoption is an option, however, I suppose there may be an element of guilt, of giving away something that was part of the mother (and emotionally to the father and mother) for numerous months and hope that when someone takes it, they treat it properly. The child could grow up in an abusive environment, be left on the streets, etc... . Abortion eliminates those possibilities that the parents may not want to face.

For adoption, you give away a part of yourself, something living. For abortion, the parents are likely to consider the fetus as not being alive at that point and so it is easier to do. It could also be that with adoption, the biological parents who if they did want the child at one point in time would be emotionally attached to it and be fearful if it was treated abusively in the hands of a stranger. Abortion eliminates this. You can call it selfish if you want, however, as you mentioned above, being responsible is thinking of the baby. I'm expanding that statement to cover a young child also.


You're the embryo? ALL of us were embryos at one point in time and all of us currently are human beings. If you want to argue that humans are an embryo, then we all are embryos. It is not the case of you, the lone embryo, versus the humans. Why? Because that makes no sense one bit. If you indeed are an embryo, then you cannot be typing, you'd be a tiny little wee lump of cells, no brain, no hands, no fingers, no feet, etc... . I assume you are typing with your fingers (or prosthetic limbs) and have a working brain and sensory organs. Therefore, you are NOT an embryo using the traditional definition of an embryo. If you define an embryo in some other way, then all humans will be, according to you, an embryo.



How is the embryo part true? Regardless if Josh uses the traditional or whatever his definition may be, ALL humans would be either humans or an embryo. It would not be him being the embryo and mostly everyone else a human.

As you seem to know quite a bit on this embryo business, why don't you provide some sources for it? You're making that claim, so instead of just saying that there is evidence, why don't you give some links or names of books supporting your claim, as according to you, there is a lot of this.

Re: Abortion is wrong.
 

Your comment, "but I will always win because abortion will never be illegal again," is hilarious. Because I have never, not once stated to make it illegal. I have never even proposed that. All I have ever proposed was making it the last resort, trying all other options as best as one could, without hitting the kill button. I have even stated under some situations it would be the best option, but those are for extreme cases.

You're a girl, you get pregnant, you're sexist - don't care. All I know is I'm more connected to this than you because I am that embryo and RESEARCH that I have paid close attention to and read up on in order to understand why I feel the way I do for someone I never even laid my eyes on tells me that I was alive during those nine months and that is why I remember her so intensely. There's notes and heavily recorded research that have gone into these studies of the embryotic stage of development that I can personally account for because it's the only thing that makes even the most remote of sense. It is something that you, should thank God, you'll never have to go through - even though I'm still happy to be alive.

Re: Abortion is wrong.
 

That's your mindset, you should not be able to push YOUR morals on everyone else. A woman should be able to choose, ESPECIALLY when she gets raped. We both can not begin to comprehend the emotional trauma a WOMAN feels when she gets raped and ends up getting pregnant because of it...

But, guys can't get pregnant if they're raped. I understand that guys can get raped, as I am one, but when a guy gets raped, they don't have 9 months to deal with it having a kid inside of them. Again, we can't comprehend it, it probably has to be the worst thing ever...

Re: Abortion is wrong.
 

[quote=YourNightmare;157806]
How is the embryo part true? Regardless if Josh uses the traditional or whatever his definition may be, ALL humans would be either humans or an embryo. It would not be him being the embryo and mostly everyone else a human. [quote]

And when I said my thing about winning that wasn't for you it was more for me. I don't know why you think that all women who have abortions didn't consider all other options first, but I think you'd be hard up to find someone who hadn't.

And once again you are not an embryo now so PLEASE STOP CALLING YOURSELF ONE. It makes no sense, especially since, as nightmare pointed out, the embryo has no brain therefore no memories. I think you may be using the wrong name, for I have no doubt you've done your research but maybe you are referring to the fetal stage.

Re: Abortion is wrong.
 

YOURNIGHTMARE:

You're asking me to make sense of something that shouldn't make sense. Read any adoption books... go to page thirty in the following link. Educate yourself before you post, same goes for everyone else questioning how alive the unborn child may be.

"JOURNEY OF THE ADOPTED SELF: THE PRENATAL SELF

Keep in mind that that's just ONE book.

----------------

If the parents are unfit financially, physically, etc. there is no legitimate reason for them to give the child up for abortion rather than adoption. At least this way they're giving life and providing a better opportunity than taking life away.

I can expect the fear of what may have happened, because, believe me that is the dual side of the coin. Adoptees also feel that, that eternal wondering of where their parents may be and how they are. I'm willing to bet if someone took a survey of orphans and adoptees - the vast majority would say they're happy to be alive rather than dead.

As for why I'm the embryo? Because it's something I feel inside me. I don't have memory in the sense of the common definition, but I do have feelings that can't be explained away in any other sense - this is an intense feeling for a woman I've never even seen. There has to be something that explains this and books do, in fact, explain this as I have provided the sample for above. Those who live with their natural parents, never have to question intensely their origins and that moment in their life - thus, in effect, they have lost that moment in time that others are bound to. Upon reuniting, it is also stated that some significantly regress back to the state of being a child - once again, this is for a woman that according to you they have "no memory" of... which makes no sense at all in your terms.

-----------

DOES:

I have never spoken one word against rape victims. I have never called them weak. Only that I believe it would be more psychologically draining for them to abort than to give the child up for adoption. I'd say the rape would stick with her, but you add that on top of the possible guilt she may feel after the abortion? I seriously think it would haunt her a lot more for the rest of her life.

I don't try to be a dictator, even though it may seem that way. I just talk strongly especially concerning things that I am deeply connected to. You can choose whether you want to agree or not, but I'll always speak my mind without holding back.

Re: Abortion is wrong.
 

Honey I dare you to find one woman who had an abortion after being raped and getting pregnant who feels guilty about it.

Re: Abortion is wrong.
 

I think that what he means to say by calling himself "the embryo" is that he was in the situation of an embryo which could have been aborted if his biological mother had chosen to take that route. He is alive today because she chose to give him up for adoption. I hope that makes it clearer, and Josh please correct me if thats not what you meant.

Re: Abortion is wrong.
 

Comically I find you always go back to this rape thing while ignoring the women who get an abortion that HAVEN'T been raped. What's this pre-occupation with rape for you?

Re: Abortion is wrong.
 

Yeah, that's part of what I mean. I have many different alternate realities which are felt, that books also speak of, one of those is what if my mother had aborted me - which she could have easily done.

Another part is that I, somehow, remember what it feels like to be the unborn baby which the link I provided states how this can be. How an unborn child can "remember" living within it's mother... I'm talking about heart memory and emotions, not plain out cognitive thinking.

Re: Abortion is wrong.
 

Believing something doesn't make you right.

You believe it should be illegal, if you had your wishes, it'd be hard to disagree with you.
Also, abortions will still go on, even if it were illegal, just like they did before Roe v. Wade. It's just, they'll be so much less safe, and more mothers would die from bad abortions. Just like making drugs illegal does not help the drug problem (but that's a different debate).

Re: Abortion is wrong.
 

FOR THE HUNDRETH TIME, I AM NOT SAYING ABORTION SHOULD BE ILLEGAL. ONLY HELD AS THE LAST POSSIBLE RESORT.

What's so hard to understand about this? In some cases, it's needed to make sure that the girl lives through the pregnancy and that the baby isn't born with serious birth defects that would lead more to living in hell than living a life.

Re: Abortion is wrong.
 

Re: Abortion is wrong.
 

Wait a minute you're the one who brought it up. I was responding to what you said. And if you look back on this thread I only mentioned it after other people did. I think you are fishing now.

Re: Abortion is wrong.
 

Then you weren't the one who brought it up? Too many user names, all I know is people are mixing words I say. Because all of what I say keeps on being linked back to rape victims, when I just mean your regular run-of-the-mill girl who does it without looking for other options. That's why I never stated it should be illegal, because for some it's the only last resort. While others have a chance and don't even take it. It's not only rape victims who get abortions, you know that don't you? Hopefully you do, because that's the crowd I'm speaking about - not the raped, but those who are "oh my god, my parents will find out - kill it!" or "oh no, my future's ruined - kill it!" when they could just as easily opt for adoption and have nothing hold them back but selfish tendencies of not wanting to deal with it.

Re: Abortion is wrong.
 

Oh I know. A very small number of abortions are results of rape. However I don't thinka number even exists of women who have abortions without considering all of their options. I mean I really want to know where you are getting this information from. Why do you think that the women who get abortions just decided to do it the second they found out they were pregnant?

Re: Abortion is wrong.
 

Ok, but he never will experience it, nor will I, but people have abortions in that situation because the opposite is right.

You think it should be illegal, only exceptions are in circumstances of the death of the mother or sever problems for the infant... That's still against abortion, and I still think you are wrong.

Re: Abortion is wrong.
 

I second this. We have ALL been embryos.
I respect your opinion but can you please repect other peoples because your not neccesserily right and neither is anyone else thats why its on the DEBATE forum.

I think Abortion is right if it's better for the potential human.
You mention about adoption alot which yes is a fair idea but you seem to forget about the pregnancy stage and those mental AND physical effects it can have on the mother. I don't even know why im posting this because you are unlikely to be open minded about the female point of view anyway.

Re: Abortion is wrong.
 

Because that's how I've heard some girls talk about it. Hell, you can even find one of those girls on this very thread who said she'd abort the baby just because she doesn't want to be a mother right now and wants to live her life just for her for a while. Those are the girls I'm talking about, that's the line of thinking I find disturbing to say the very least. Because they can just as easily put the child up for adoption and very likely get support at least from their families - or at least should try to, then if there's no other choice humanly possible abort... but, those doing it for purely "not right time for me" or "my parents will be angry, people at school will know" frankly disturb me.

Illegal isn't the same thing as last resort. And Does, at my age, I know plenty of guys who are already fathers and people who have families. It's not out of the question to raise or put up for adoption. It's not this "oh my god, world exploding - ahh!" run and screaming thing. It's a situation where I've seen plenty already act responsibly. I also think this is part of the cut off, earlier sex is a lot of the time for enjoyment - then later, in twenties, it becomes more of a responsibility, seeing and understanding that.

I'm a strong speaker, as I keep saying. I don't hold any bars up... but, let me ask you this - would you respect someone willing to take a life so that they alone can have a better future? Even if there's the possibility of everyone in that person's life still being there for them prior to taking that life?

Re: Abortion is wrong.
 

I don't understand. What are these mental and physical effects which would make it implausible for a woman to give 9 months in order for her baby to live, and then give the baby up for adoption? (I mean, I've been through a rough unplanned pregnancy, but is not wanting some pain and discomfort and dealing with some not-so-supportive people enough justification to not give a baby a chance at life with parents who do have the resources to take care of him or her?)

Re: Abortion is wrong.
 

I don't understand that either... women give birth all the time, if it was that stressful I'd think all women would be in asylums after they give birth. Unless it's an extreme situation, which I've said those particular rare occurrances are already and perfectly understandable regarding abortion. If there's something wrong inside of them that could potentially harm them, it's perfectly reasonable... but once again, these are the rare cases. How can thousands of women go through it and not one?

How can run line themselves up with killing something purely for their own personal gain? Which I have seen some state and this is the group I'm always referring to.

Re: Abortion is wrong.
 

Re: Abortion is wrong.
 

Girls can get kicked out of their house for getting pregnant, and if I were a girl, I'd rather (even if it were against the law) get an abortion (and kill an unborn embryo) before my parents knew about it than have my parents know about the kid, and kick me out of the house...

Re: Abortion is wrong.
 

I completely agree with this and this is why I would have an abortion if it was an unplanned pregnancy because I want the first child I have to be because I'm starting a family.

Re: Abortion is wrong.
 

The funny thing is, again, this would fall into the rare. Yes, parents would be angry. What you did was irresponsible, I can't say it wasn't. But, the chances are strong that they'll only at most be angry at you and perhaps ground you for a long time.

As someone who has grown up with that fear of being kick out, I can say that once I became an "emerging adult" I can see it was all in my head.

Who's to say if or if not the parents will kick her out or just be extremely angry at her for a while?

Comically I probably sound as bizarre as Efron talking about why sex should be seen as important and a responsible act in "seventeen again"... or at least seems that way.

-----------------

LIFE OF THE UNBORN...

LINK:
"The Prenatal Self"

Turn to page thirty to find out what'd you'd be aborting, frankly it'll probably shock you to find how much actually goes on in there. I know I didn't even expect what I read. I too, for a long time, until I started regressing and read about this research thought that the baby was only finally alive once it came out of the Mom. But, research is now showing that it starts long before that. It's something that anyone even remotely considering an abortion should read.

Re: Abortion is wrong.
 

And even if her parents did kick her out (which most wouldn't) there are many, many women's shelters, emergency accommodations, and other free resources for expectant and single mothers.

Re: Abortion is wrong.
 

Including aunts, uncles, grandparents, etc. But, as said, I'd really consider it rare that a parent would kick their own kid out of the house - even though when I was younger, especially fifteen/sixteen (I thought a speeding ticket would get me thrown out! Anything could get me thrown out back then in my mind), it's more of a irrational fear while growing up.

Re: Abortion is wrong.
 

I'm male, therefore I'm not entitled to make the final decision, and by that ruling, you aren't either, Josh. You have every right to declare your opinions, but ultimately, this is the mother's choice.

Rape, accidental pregnancy from failed birth control, and severe injuries or afflictions to mother and/or child are all valid reasons to get an abortion. And it's not like women take the decision lightly. I highly doubt there is any woman in the world who felt the decision to get an abortion was "easy".

Re: Abortion is wrong.
 

Arbiter, you're also speaking in the "extreme situations," which I've seen that I and others agree and align with and actually stress.

It's the fears of disapproval, stigma, going through it although there's no risks, not wanting to because it's just not time - that group alone is the group I refer to and don't agree with and I've seen enough of those people thinking and talking that way that I just felt like it needed to be addressed. It's more trying to "educate," and stress that there are better alternatives when one can't raise a child than abortion that one needs to take into account. And that, as hard as it is to believe, there is some form of life in there - which I've provided a link to just one of the books that addresses it.

The actual thread title should be: "Abortion should be the last resort, opt for adoption."

Re: Abortion is wrong.
 

I do not think abortion is wrong, but I definately think that if a father wants a say in the survival or death of their baby they should be allowed rights. Personally if I were pregnant and the father wanted me to keep the child rather than abort it, I would keep it. A father should have just as many parenting rights as a mother.