Triggering: Abortion is wrong.

[JoJoWildHorse]

Originally Posted by Josh

Abortion's wrong. Clear and simple. Yesterday I spotted a thread at the pregnancy forum that really disturbed me - about someone getting or considering getting an abortion.

Abortion is wrong, yes. But have you thought about the many women and girls who have had no other choice? Who've been forced into it. Whether they are forced by the father or their parents?

You chose to have sex. You have to deal with the consequences. Your parents find out? Big deal. The "pregnancy pain" worries you? Big deal. You didn't have to have sex. But, you did - you have a life growing inside you now and you have to follow it through.

Yes, I chose to have sex, but that doesn't mean that I was afraid of the consequences. I was happy when I found out I was pregnant. I was excited. My fiance was a different story. He was angry. He told me that either I got an abortion or I would be kicked out onto the streets. I was 17, still in school, and 13 hours away from any family that I have. On top of that, he told me that he would sue me if I tried to give "his baby" up for adoption. I did not know about the options I know about now.

Embryo stage of life DOES exist. I can testify to this and so can numerous other adoptees, who's only memory of our mothers exist in that stage of life. I can't explain what happens, why it happens, only that I know it does and research has proven that this is the case. You're killing life.

I do not deny that after that first second of when sperm and egg meet is life.

I had no other choice.

Abortion's only right under one condition - such as a couple who keep trying to have a child only to lead to children being born with severe birth defects. Or if medically it's able to predict if the child will be born with any painful defects. If you're responsible enough to have sex, from that point onwards you have to grow up. Being responsible is not getting an abortion out of fear of giving birth, your parents finding out, or what your classmates may think - that's immature.

I was not afraid of what my classmates would think. I was happy. I didn't care about the pain of birth. It is something that almost every woman goes through at some point or another.

All I knew was that I had a life inside me that was a piece of both me and my fiance and that we had created it. I honestly thought that he was going to feel the same way.

Being responsible is doing what's best for the baby.

I did what was best for my baby. I chose to send my baby up to heaven rather than have him born into a house that was emotionally, and eventually physically abusive. I would not put my child, my son, my baby, my angel into that situation.

And as for how old you are - ever hear of adoption? You don't need to raise it, just don't kill it. It's not that hard, why anyone would choose abortion above adoption as a solution beyond selfish reasons is way beyond me unless there's chance of pain for the child.

You're right, there is such thing as adoption. I knew that I was not ready to have a child. I knew that I didn't have the means to take care of my baby, and I did not want to abort him. But... As I said above, I was 17, still in school, 13 hours from any family, being threatened with being sued if I ever tried to give "his baby" up for adoption.

I know this post is highly accusatory, but it really disturbed me and I felt I couldn't let this go without saying something about it.

You're damn right it is accusatory. Sometimes, there are times where you need to shut your mouth and not say anything.

You do not know the story behind why the girl in the P&C section had an abortion.

You know my story now. Perhaps, next time you want a debate you shouldn't be so accusatory, hurtful, and do some more research.

Originally Posted by Josh

but I do wonder whether or not some women may regret it later on in their life and wish that they would have held in there and given the child up for adoption.

I do regret it. It's not my fault though. I made the best choice I could at the time with the information I had.

[PhoenixAlive]

I'm so. so sorry for your loss and I don't think anyone would blame you for your situation.

[ThePunkAlien]

I don't think anyone can blame you for what happened. Actually I'm really sympathetic towards you because your boyfriend sounds like the exact kind of jerk that I don't want to be anything like. You didn't choose abortion, he forced you into it, which was wrong.

I could actually be, from the sounds of it, one of the few guys who can get sickened by things like that and one night stands. My father ran out on my mother, providing no way for her to be able to care for me - thus, she had to give me away. I won't lie, I hate the bastard. Everyday I have to know what he did and I've vowed to be nothing like him.

[Kumagoro]

Originally Posted by Josh

You chose to have sex. You have to deal with the consequences.

Not everyone chooses to have sex. If the woman is forced into it I think abortion is 100% acceptable as she was helpless and innocent and deserves the right to choose. How could you expect her to have a child that will remind her of a terrible and traumatic event?

[ThePunkAlien]

Originally Posted by handgrenadeheart

Not everyone chooses to have sex. If the woman is forced into it I think abortion is 100% acceptable as she was helpless and innocent and deserves the right to choose. How could you expect her to have a child that will remind her of a terrible and traumatic event?

We already talked about rape yesterday, and it was already said that extreme cases were beyond understandable. So, it's kinda mute point by now...

Even though I'm still wondering if for some women it would bring more pain later in their life for having done it than giving it up for adoption, could be for some while not others. But, still don't exactly know which would have the easier psychological long term effect. Such as if prior to she didn't believe in abortion, then got an abortion due to what happened - how would she feel a year down the line? Due to that, don't know whether or not it could be the best outcome for the victim because it might add to the pain of what happened.

[Oiseau the Little Bird!]

Eh. So after reading 5 pages of this junk, I'll put my two cents in.

I, personally, relate a freshly fertilised egg to a quickly growing cancer, on the relation that it could definitely ruin my life. This is because I'm 20 years old and fuck if I'm going to wait and let that bundle of cells actually develop into a human being that I have to give up my life for. I don't want a baby right now. I can't care for a baby right now. And fuck, I don't feel like dealing with the family and their mixed reactions. Don't come at me with "then don't have sex!" Because I will jump through the screen, find out where you live, and smack you.

The idea that people just DON'T HAVE SEX is ridiculous. Religious dicks out there are trying to stop people from doing what they are BIOLOGICALLY PROGRAMMED TO DO. But, being blessed with the ability to think, we can have sex and avoid having babies as a result. Actually, there was a thread in Religion+Philos (for the sake of the religious folk in here) where someone said that God didn't make it possible for women to get pregnant every day of her life, so sex is obviously not just about offspring. It's about a close, humanly connection to another person.

And, for the sake of argument, let's say your (anyone) daughter gets pregnant. Rape or whatever. Your choice. She DOES NOT WANT THIS BABY. But because you're the parent, and you are overtly against abortion, you refuse it. Adoption might be one thing, or keeping the baby. Your daughter will more than likely resent you for making her go through 9 months of psychological torture for keeping a growing thing inside of her, or if she was raped, holy shit. Fuck that noise. I would be out of there and in a clinic in no time.

So in short, I don't think that having an abortion is wrong. It makes no matter to me WHY you do it, because that's between you and the doctor and perhaps God, depending on your beliefs.

[PhoenixAlive]

Originally Posted by Oiseau the Little Bird!

And, for the sake of argument, let's say your (anyone) daughter gets pregnant. Rape or whatever. Your choice. She DOES NOT WANT THIS BABY. But because you're the parent, and you are overtly against abortion, you refuse it. Adoption might be one thing, or keeping the baby. Your daughter will more than likely resent you for making her go through 9 months of psychological torture for keeping a growing thing inside of her, or if she was raped, holy shit. Fuck that noise. I would be out of there and in a clinic in no time.

So in short, I don't think that having an abortion is wrong. It makes no matter to me WHY you do it, because that's between you and the doctor and perhaps God, depending on your beliefs.

Its already been agreed that rape is an acceptable reason to have an abortion.

9 months of psychological torture? Huh? In normal cases of pregnancy (even unwanted pregnancy) although there is stigma, its not that bad! 9 months is worth giving someone the gift of life. Give the baby up for adoption if you don't want to keep it.

[losing touch.]

Originally Posted by PhoenixAlive

Its already been agreed that rape is an acceptable reason to have an abortion.

9 months of psychological torture? Huh? In normal cases of pregnancy (even unwanted pregnancy) although there is stigma, its not that bad! 9 months is worth giving someone the gift of life. Give the baby up for adoption if you don't want to keep it.

"it's not that bad!" - well, speak for yourself. for some people it could cause them a lot of problems, when this could be avoided by abortion - so i see no problem with it.

[PhoenixAlive]

I know it causes a lot of problems. What I am saying is that no matter how bad it is, unless the woman's life is at risk (which would be considered torture), it is not bad enough to justify not giving someone the chance for a full life.

[losing touch.]

Originally Posted by PhoenixAlive

I know it causes a lot of problems. What I am saying is that no matter how bad it is, unless the woman's life is at risk (which would be considered torture), it is not bad enough to justify not giving someone the chance for a full life.

well that's your opinion. i think you can only speak for yourself as to what is and isn't "bad enough" to justify abortion - everyone will have differing views on it.

[PhoenixAlive]

Here, let me try something else.

It has been argued by some (I've been here since the original post, so I've read too many posts to remember which person said it) that a woman shouldn't have to go through 9 months of pain for a baby she doesn't even want in the first place, especially if she took the necessary precautions not to get pregnant to begin with.

Given the opportunity, would you risk your life for a stranger or someone you don't necessarily care for, to give them the chance to survive?

If the answer is yes, then why would you not deal with 9 months of pain and discomfort and possibly stigma to give someone the chance at a full life?

[Keep Calm and Eat Cake]

Originally Posted by PhoenixAlive

I don't understand. What are these mental and physical effects which would make it implausible for a woman to give 9 months in order for her baby to live, and then give the baby up for adoption? (I mean, I've been through a rough unplanned pregnancy, but is not wanting some pain and discomfort and dealing with some not-so-supportive people enough justification to not give a baby a chance at life with parents who do have the resources to take care of him or her?)

I just re-read my post (Was in a terrible mood when i read it) and realised how i didn't make the sence of what i wanted it to.
I mean theres a possibility of mental and physical effects. You can't treat abortion so vaguely "Abortion is wrong." i think it depends on the situation.
Mental -- If the woman who falls pregnant is emotionally unstable and/or is going to be a terrible mother and be unable to look after the baby - giving it the love and support it needs then of course that woman should not be having this baby. It could cause so much stress and lead to depression,etc. And yes of course theres the adoption idea, but you dont seem to recognise the struggle taht would be for the mother after carrying this baby for 9 months and then giving it up, not to mention the strain on the baby as it grows up with all these questions and self doubt (not meaning to generalise as im sure its completely different for each and every case, but just thinking of the possibilities)
Physical -- Young mothers in particular or older women who happen to fall pregnant just arnt always physically capable of having a baby due to high complications etc.

I just think that you shouldn't treat the cases so black and white. I know that what ive said isn't a particuarly strong arguement but i just want to open narrow minds to the shades of grey.

[losing touch.]

Originally Posted by PhoenixAlive

Here, let me try something else.

It has been argued by some (I've been here since the original post, so I've read too many posts to remember which person said it) that a woman shouldn't have to go through 9 months of pain for a baby she doesn't even want in the first place, especially if she took the necessary precautions not to get pregnant to begin with.

Given the opportunity, would you risk your life for a stranger or someone you don't necessarily care for, to give them the chance to survive?

If the answer is yes, then why would you not deal with 9 months of pain and discomfort and possibly stigma to give someone the chance at a full life?

no i absolutely wouldn't risk my life for a stranger or someone i didn't care about. sometimes you've gotta look out for number one, eh?

the answer is no.. so i guess the second part isn't really relevent.

[PhoenixAlive]

Originally Posted by newvisionofreality

I just re-read my post (Was in a terrible mood when i read it) and realised how i didn't make the sence of what i wanted it to.
I mean theres a possibility of mental and physical effects. You can't treat abortion so vaguely "Abortion is wrong." i think it depends on the situation.
Mental -- If the woman who falls pregnant is emotionally unstable and/or is going to be a terrible mother and be unable to look after the baby - giving it the love and support it needs then of course that woman should not be having this baby. It could cause so much stress and lead to depression,etc. And yes of course theres the adoption idea, but you dont seem to recognise the struggle taht would be for the mother after carrying this baby for 9 months and then giving it up, not to mention the strain on the baby as it grows up with all these questions and self doubt (not meaning to generalise as im sure its completely different for each and every case, but just thinking of the possibilities)
Physical -- Young mothers in particular or older women who happen to fall pregnant just arnt always physically capable of having a baby due to high complications etc.

I just think that you shouldn't treat the cases so black and white. I know that what ive said isn't a particuarly strong arguement but i just want to open narrow minds to the shades of grey.

I've already agreed that if its a matter of medical complications creating risk to the mother, or rape, I agree with terminating the pregnancy. So yes, I was aware of these grey areas.

Originally Posted by xxEllexx

no i absolutely wouldn't risk my life for a stranger or someone i didn't care about. sometimes you've gotta look out for number one, eh?

the answer is no.. so i guess the second part isn't really relevent.

Oh, okay. Guess that one fell flat... I thought the answers would pretty much all be yes on that question. Sorry about that.

[ThePunkAlien]

Originally Posted by newvisionofreality

not to mention the strain on the baby as it grows up with all these questions and self doubt (not meaning to generalise as im sure its completely different for each and every case, but just thinking of the possibilities)

As an adoptee, no it's not that much of a strain - not in the least - and I'm sure other adoptees can account for this as well. This is the problem of interaction between nonadoptees and adoptees - the two armed guy can never understand the one armed guy. They may try to, but they'll never be able to. Go around asking adoptees if they're happy to be alive - you'll find a resounding yes, even in the worst of cases. Nonadoptees - as I've found - have a really low view on us, which I can't exactly understand but have seen time and time again, so it is kinda like being in a minority group with prejudices which would probably make a nonadoptee only think of strain.

Everyone goes through something, everyone has something that follows them in life, adoptees are no different than others we just face different problems along the way. It's not so easy being the mythic hero - but, hey we're more mythic than nonadoptees could ever hope to achieve, so that's cool also. Being a guy looking around - every one wants to be a hero, but adoptees have been thrust into the basic archetypal story of the hero - just look to any hero story... once that's achieved, it kinda feels like being double the person.

[PhoenixAlive]

Originally Posted by Josh

As an adoptee, no it's not that much of a strain - not in the least - and I'm sure other adoptees can account for this as well. This is the problem of interaction between nonadoptees and adoptees - the two armed guy can never understand the one armed guy. They may try to, but they'll never be able to. Go around asking adoptees if they're happy to be alive - you'll find a resounding yes, even in the worst of cases.

Everyone goes through something, everyone has something that follows them in life, adoptees are no different than others we just face different problems along the way.

I've gotta go with Josh on this one. As an adoptee, we have to face problems and emotional pitfalls that others may not have to, but then again, there are problems we might not have that others do. Life has ups and downs for everybody. And I am happy to have the chance to live it.

[JoJoWildHorse]

[quote=Oiseau the Little Bird!;158546] The idea that people just DON'T HAVE SEX is ridiculous. Religious dicks out there are trying to stop people from doing what they are BIOLOGICALLY PROGRAMMED TO DO. [/qoute]

I have yet to figure out why I like this statement so much. LOL

[Keep Calm and Eat Cake]

Originally Posted by Josh

As an adoptee, no it's not that much of a strain - not in the least - and I'm sure other adoptees can account for this as well. This is the problem of interaction between nonadoptees and adoptees - the two armed guy can never understand the one armed guy. They may try to, but they'll never be able to. Go around asking adoptees if they're happy to be alive - you'll find a resounding yes, even in the worst of cases.

Likewise -- The non-pregnant male can NEVER understand the pregnant female. They may try to, but they'll never be able to.


And i think previous posters have already pointed out - you would never have known if you were aborted or not, you do not have an opinion at that stage as you are not developed enough.

[JoJoWildHorse]

Originally Posted by Josh

I don't think anyone can blame you for what happened. Actually I'm really sympathetic towards you because your boyfriend sounds like the exact kind of jerk that I don't want to be anything like. You didn't choose abortion, he forced you into it, which was wrong.

I could actually be, from the sounds of it, one of the few guys who can get sickened by things like that and one night stands. My father ran out on my mother, providing no way for her to be able to care for me - thus, she had to give me away. I won't lie, I hate the bastard. Everyday I have to know what he did and I've vowed to be nothing like him.

He was my fiance... It wasn't something that I thought he wouldn't want. I mean... We were supposed to be marrying eachother and all. He knew that I wanted a family. He never said much in way of opposition to that...

I'm just glad that I didn't have to bring a child into the situation that I was in. On top of the fact that I would have an eternal connection to him for the rest of my baby's life.

[losing touch.]

Originally Posted by Josh

As an adoptee, no it's not that much of a strain - not in the least - and I'm sure other adoptees can account for this as well. This is the problem of interaction between nonadoptees and adoptees - the two armed guy can never understand the one armed guy. They may try to, but they'll never be able to. Go around asking adoptees if they're happy to be alive - you'll find a resounding yes, even in the worst of cases.

just because you don't think it's much of a strain, that doesn't make it fact for everyone. not all adoptees will feel the same way as you, in fact i'd argue that i lot probably feel very differently. just because nonadoptees haven't been adopted - it doesn't mean they can't have an opinion on abortion which is just as valid. abortion and adoption are two very different things.

Originally Posted by Josh

Everyone goes through something, everyone has something that follows them in life, adoptees are no different than others we just face different problems along the way. It's not so easy being the mythic hero - but, hey we're more mythic than nonadoptees could ever hope to achieve, so that's cool also. Being a guy looking around - every one wants to be a hero, but adoptees have been thrust into the basic archetypal story of the hero - just look to any hero story... once that's achieved, it kinda feels like being double the person.

i don't really see how this has anything to do with the debate topic.

[ThePunkAlien]

Likewise, father's shouldn't be seen as Vulcans - which as a guy is really disturbing.

Elle, I can reply to whatever I want to reply to. If a nonadoptee tries to state they know perfectly well how adoptees feel, I can point them out as being hypocrites. The two armed guy can't understand the one armed guy and never can. Plus, as an adoptee who's known A LOT of adoptees - no, we're not these damaged goods and numbers people want to see us as... which is frankly agravating, I mean even in TV... Prison Break for example, the initial reaction from nonadoptees was "oh no, they're not brothers anymore!" HUH???? I've seen that time and time again and in comments on here to know how assine some people can be that aren't able to grasp that family is more than blood.

I've live life enough to know that nonadoptees have a very narrow viewpoint of us - this thread has done more than solidify that - they only see the negatives, for some reason only adoptees are able to see the positives. I can also live with the fact that we're the MYTHIC HEROES that every single legend on earth is based around. Ask any guy if they want to be like one of the mythic heroes, they'd say "hell yeah, that'd be cool," well - in a way - that's my life... it would be cool if they'd just apply that same logic to adoptees & orphans as they do the heroes they admire. Because, the same hardships, questions, success - well, that's our life. We live the mythic hero life so many others can only dream of. We're your Kryptonians. I'd reckon to say it's an adventure and like all adventures - there's up and downs - but in the end, the hero always wins. I know I'm where I am - best friends with an academy award winner's son & interning at a TOP film studio this summer - because of the strength I got from the adventure my life has been.

Here's a better way to view it... rather than seeing babies who have been cast out in trying to understand us, see Superman, Luke Skywalker, etc. maybe this will alleviate the negatives nonadoptees see in it.

[PhoenixAlive]

I just posted a new thread for anyone who wants to share their views on adoption, since that's been coming up a lot in this thread.

Back to the point of abortion, I don't see why the father shouldn't be given a voice on the subject. Of course the final decision belongs to the mother, however, the repercussions of keeping/putting up for adoption/aborting a baby affect more than just one person (the mother).

[Casey.]

I'm completely against late term abortion, unless it is to save the mother's life. And then, it is no longer called abortion.

Originally Posted by PhoenixAlive

After the baby is viable, couldn't they just induce labor or perform a c-section to get the baby out without killing him or her?

They could. However there is only a 50% chance that the baby will survive. It would be considered a preemie, and it would have the same chance of surviving. But if the mum doesn't want it, I'm not sure they would save the fetus.

[PhoenixAlive]

Originally Posted by Casey

I'm completely against late term abortion, unless it is to save the mother's life. And then, it is no longer called abortion.


They could. However there is only a 50% chance that the baby will survive. It would be considered a preemie, and it would have the same chance of surviving. But if the mum doesn't want it, I'm not sure they would save the fetus.

That sucks... But if the mother is absolutely dead-set against going through the rest of the pregnancy, at least that would allow a chance for the baby to survive. And then she could give him or her up for adoption. Its not an ideal situation, but I don't know what else could be done.

In most countries, late term abortion (after 24 weeks) is illegal, except in extreme circumstances, so that is a small comfort.

[Adean]

How was the survey conducted? Was it random? Did they choose just one clinic?

[Adean]

Honestly, it's no one's damn business why a woman might want an abortion because no one can understand perfectly why she might want an abortion.

[PhoenixAlive]

Then she should talk about it! Its something that needs to be discussed and understood fully before she makes that sort of a decision anyways.

[thebigmole]

So a person is not able to make a decision unless they consult a bunch of other people? If we were like that we would never get anything done. And what if the woman had no one to talk to, I for one wouldn't want to talk to some stranger about whether I should get an abortion or not, what if you accidently came across and extremist that pushed so hard for the pro-life, or even pro-choice, side that the woman would feel like she couldn't make the decision for herself.

[PhoenixAlive]

That's not exactly what I meant. A woman should talk to the father and any relatives she feels she can talk to. She should explain how she feels and why she feels the way she does. I would also say that she should have to go to at least three counseling sessions before she is allowed to make the decision. Because it is a HUGE decision that will impact the rest of her life.

[InSovietRussiaORGASMGotU]

Originally Posted by Josh

Due to this alone, I'm sorry but I just can't take anything you say seriously now. A man with both arms can truly in all being understand the one armed man and what it feels like to only have one arm?

Whether you take me seriously or not I don't really care. I've said already, the two-armed man CANNOT understand how the one-armed man feels. I don't know why you're questioning something that I put in very simple terms. In case you cant catch it, I'm agreeing with you on this example and in the fact that non-adoptees cannot understand how an adoptee feels. They can sympathize but they cannot understand. However, the adoptee's opinions regarding adoption should not carry more weight than the non-adoptee because that implies that in some way they are above the rest, they are putting themselves on a pedestal and can easily play the card of "well you don't understand how I feel so I'm going to ignore you". The adoptee's opinion has better insight and probably more knowledge on the topic, however, in a debate, their opinions on the matter have the same weight.

To make it really clear to you, in your own words:

Everyone goes through something, everyone has something that follows them in life, adoptees are no different than others we just face different problems along the way.

Originally Posted by Gidig

Another thing I think reading this gets across, is what would we do if abortion wasn't legal?

Carry through with the pregnancy and possibly give the child up for adoption. Although the problem I see with this is that orphanages will be very strained due to the large amounts of children and there is no guaruntee that the child will be adopted in the first place. It reduces the chances of the child being adopted and I suspect that would be rather hard on the children.

Originally Posted by Gidig

I don't think people think about this at all when saying abortion should not be legal, that we should just have adoption and so forth. But it's not that easy really.

I agree, when people say abortion should be illegal, then you have to wonder, if that indeed did happen, what would be some likely practical outcomes in addition to adoption? If some families are struggling financially, then taking a child in, whether the government makes them or whether they choose to, is only going to worsen the situation not only for the adoptee but for the entire family including the adoptee.

Originally Posted by Josh

I've live life enough to know that nonadoptees have a very narrow viewpoint of us - this thread has done more than solidify that - they only see the negatives, for some reason only adoptees are able to see the positives

Well from what you've shown in this thread, you are not very open-minded about non-adoptees and according to you, non-adoptees are not very open-minded about adoptees. But thank you for the wonderful generalization with what adoptees and non-adoptees viewpoints are.

[jellyfish]

My opinion, I am all for abortion.
Yes we might choose to have sex, and yes we have to cope with the consequences.
Abortion was invented for a reason. If a female finds herself pregnant and she doesnt want to be, abortion is there.

It is a womans OWN choice, no ones elses. It doesnt effect anyone else apart from the person she had sex with, so why should abortion even be an issue?

[ThePunkAlien]

Originally Posted by YourNightmare

The adoptee's opinion has better insight and probably more knowledge on the topic, however, in a debate, their opinions on the matter have the same weight.

You also have to understand, such comments (directed in general)

> Abortion is kinder on children than adoption
> Adoption would cause too much trauma for the child, it's better to abort (although edited, somebody more or less said I was better off dead yesterday without realizing it)

Etc. That have been going around this thread, by nonadoptees mind you - I do have a right to speak out against that kind of thinking as do all adoptees.

As in the case of what may be best for the mother, THAT'S open to debate - but what's "kinder" and "best" for the child being abortion over adoption? Which has been stated or I've misread some - then, yeah, I'd say adoptees & orphans definitely would have more of a say because we've lived through an experience others are trying to judge without experience.

That's like me telling a kid who's father ran away that he should be be dead right now because that would be too hard for him. That's as logical as anything else I've heard sounds. Or better example yet saying it's the better choice for any minority group - whether it be be race, sexual preference or culture.

Once again, what's best for the mother is open to debate, but when people start sayings as "abortion is kinder for the child than adoption" - that brings us into the equation. (note that this post is generalized)

[jellyfish]

Because the child is not actually born, it does not know it even existed in the first place.
Abortion in the early stages would apply to this statement.
As for the latter stages and the baby has developed, if i personally (spelling?) decided to have a developed baby aborted I would feel guilty, but it doesnt make it a wrong thing to do.

[Gidig]

Originally Posted by PhoenixAlive

Its already been agreed that rape is an acceptable reason to have an abortion.

9 months of psychological torture? Huh? In normal cases of pregnancy (even unwanted pregnancy) although there is stigma, its not that bad! 9 months is worth giving someone the gift of life. Give the baby up for adoption if you don't want to keep it.

...It's not that bad?! Have you SEEN a pregnant women? Talked to one? Hell, I have a freaking period each month that makes me not want to ever get pregnant.
My orchestra teacher now has a messed up back, was throwing up nearly 24/7 to the point that she had to stay at the hospital on an IV (Not only comfort factor, but money much?) to get fluids. It's not a walk in the park. And don't say "Not that bad" until you've felt how ever person who's pregnant has felt.


I also want to say, that everything said is not directly at one person. And sometimes it can appear that way, and if you see something against you, try not to get too upset or take it like a personal attack - this is a debate, there are probably going to be people who strongly believe you're an idiot for thinking the way you are. But if it is truly a personal attack, lemme know and we'll deal with it. ^_^

[Gidig]

Hey-

I really like the sources you've put out there and so forth. I think it's amazing.

What I am going to do though, is try to consolidate some of the abortion threads, and I feel this fits in with the other abortion debate going on, but I don't want to just close this because I feel it has good information. So let's see if I can properly figure out how to do this. Haha.

Maria.

[PhoenixAlive]

Originally Posted by Gidig

...It's not that bad?! Have you SEEN a pregnant women? Talked to one? Hell, I have a freaking period each month that makes me not want to ever get pregnant.
My orchestra teacher now has a messed up back, was throwing up nearly 24/7 to the point that she had to stay at the hospital on an IV (Not only comfort factor, but money much?) to get fluids. It's not a walk in the park. And don't say "Not that bad" until you've felt how ever person who's pregnant has felt.

Umm... I guess you haven't read any of my previous posts in this thread.

I AM CURRENTLY 31 WEEKS PREGNANT

and yeah, it definitely aint fun. My own pregnancy has had several harmful complications. But I still hold true by what I said. Its not bad enough to deny someone the chance of life.

[losing touch.]

Originally Posted by PhoenixAlive

Umm... I guess you haven't read any of my previous posts in this thread.

I AM CURRENTLY 31 WEEKS PREGNANT

and yeah, it definitely aint fun. My own pregnancy has had several harmful complications. But I still hold true by what I said. Its not bad enough to deny someone the chance of life.

Maybe not YOUR pregnancy, but you don't know about everyone elses situation.

[PhoenixAlive]

Originally Posted by xxEllexx

Maybe not YOUR pregnancy, but you don't know about everyone elses situation.

I actually just realized that I misinterpreted Gidig's statement. I took "And don't say "Not that bad" until you've felt how ever person who's pregnant has felt." to mean, unless you have been pregnant, you don't know what pregnancy feels like. I didn't realize that she meant until I've felt every single woman's pregnancy. If that is the way she meant it, I'm sorry. My mistake.

[InSovietRussiaORGASMGotU]

Originally Posted by Josh

Etc. That have been going around this thread, by nonadoptees mind you - I do have a right to speak out against that kind of thinking as do all adoptees.

You certainly do have the right to speak out against that.

Originally Posted by Josh

As in the case of what may be best for the mother, THAT'S open to debate - but what's "kinder" and "best" for the child being abortion over adoption? Which has been stated or I've misread some - then, yeah, I'd say adoptees & orphans definitely would have more of a say because we've lived through an experience others are trying to judge without experience.

Others can judge even if they lack the experience. And as they can judge without this experience, they can provide a different view that adoptees may be less able to give. But of course, since adoptees have a much more weighted say, who cares about what the non-adoptees say, after all, it doesn't really matter. That's what you're implying what you say adoptees have a more weighted say: the views of non-adoptees don't matter as much, you're putting the adoptees on a pedestal when in reality, they shouldn't be. Sure, the adoptees have gone through things non-adoptees have but non-adoptees have gone through things adoptees haven't regarding their childhoods. So, instead of being open-minded and equally hearing what others have to say, you'd rather be narrow-minded and arrogant? Sounds like a plan, you're totally all for being open-minded .

Originally Posted by Josh

That's like me telling a kid who's father ran away that he should be be dead right now because that would be too hard for him. That's as logical as anything else I've heard sounds. Or better example yet saying it's the better choice for any minority group - whether it be be race, sexual preference or culture.

You could tell the kid that but someone else's statement, whether it is the kid or not, has equal weight as what yours carries.

Originally Posted by Josh

Once again, what's best for the mother is open to debate, but when people start sayings as "abortion is kinder for the child than adoption" - that brings us into the equation. (note that this post is generalized)

Yes, it does bring adoptees into question. But it does not bring adoptees on a pedestal and undermine whatever the non-adoptee's viewpoints are simply because they are not an adoptee.

But Josh, I have a question for you. Let's say by some miracle, abortion is abolished. Then what? We fill the orphanages up even more, make more of them, and possibly reduce the probabilities of a child getting adopted? What do you suppose happens, what would you want to happen? After all, you've been saying over and over how you're so affected by being an adoptee, what would you do to make it less harsh on the children?

[Aufschlitzer]

Originally Posted by Gidig

I really like the way you've thought about it. Though I don't agree - I think you really have some ideas. You seem like you'd be an interesting person to have a conversation with Aufshlitzer.

The thing about all of those options, is that, should the government be allowed to have so much power?

Another thing I think reading this gets across, is what would we do if abortion wasn't legal? And how are we going to correct this? I don't think people think about this at all when saying abortion should not be legal, that we should just have adoption and so forth. But it's not that easy really.

Yes - I think anybody with a strong distrust of government wouldn't be thrilled by the third idea. I am still waiting for a few more replies to my post, though.

I personally think that instead of debating about the morality of abortion itself, more attention should be placed on children born to mothers who do not have the resources to properly rear a child, along with renewed focus on improving the foster care system.