Triggering: Abortion is wrong.

[thebigmole]

Originally Posted by Josh

[/b]

Explain what you mean by this - YOU brought the child fully into it. In that statement, yes being an adoptee does have a huge connection to me and it's more personally tied to me and other adoptees than it is to you. Just clarify what exactly it is you're trying to say, you said it - not me.

The only situations I've seen brought up is the mother not wanting it for whatever reason and unsafe sex. Are you saying that in those cases you honestly believe the child would prefer to have been aborted? Would have been "kinder"? Because I can tell you, even on my worse days, that's far from it.

Here I'm not talking about the girl, I'm asking what you meant concerning the child.

Okay I went to work, calmed down, came back, and here we go again.

Honestly I don't think the "child" would prefer anything considering an embryo has no brain and therefore no conciousness. It can't prefer a thing.

Listen I don't know for sure if your "I know now that some guys will make better fathers than some girls will make mothers" comments were directed at me but I have a feeling they were. However this is why I believe you are wrong, you see it comes down to whether the child is wanted. Some women are going to be much better mothers to a wanted child than an unwanted one, and there are some that are going to be bad mothers to both. It has nothing to do with whether a woman will adopt her child or not.

I'm trying so hard to control myself, I just can't stand it when you say that you have a deeper connection to this topic than a woman does. You are not a survivor of abortion (and there are some out there). You were unwanted yes, guess what so was my mother. Her parents were 17 she was unexpected but they kept her and had three more kids later. She doesn't go around saying she has this deep connection to the abortion topic. If we were talking adoption, I'd be all for you. But not this.

[orevem]

Originally Posted by thebigmole

Wow, just wow. You see people this is why guys need to keep their mouths shut when it comes to this topic. Well not completely, I mean it is half their child so they can certainly voice their opinion, but a simple yes or no will do no more.

"Pregnancy pain" and you put it in quotes, that's the very moment I stopped really caring about what you posted. Yes the girl did choose to have sex but she certainly didn't do it by herself. That's what really gets me, and it's why I don't like guys who are pro-life to the point where they think that they should actually have a say in what a woman should do with her body, like they could possibly understand the physical and emotional pain of pregnancy, which you have already proven you cannot. You see the guy can say, oh sure I'll help you raise this baby. But they've got 9 months to change their mind and disapear and then the woman is stuck by herself, with thousands of dollars in medical bills, and a child she probably can't care for.

You sound like one of those people who think that a child should be a consequence, or a punishment. You had sex bad girl, here potentially ruin your life and have a child before you're ready. I just don't think you truly understand the situation.

yes! you pretty much said all that goes through my head when it comes to this topic. thank you!

[noonewantstoknow]

first of all, I am a girl who believes that abortion is wrong.

simply because I dislike the debate about when the fetus becomes a human being. the point is, no matter WHEN it actually becomes a human being, if you allow it, it WILL become a human being.

I think abortion has came into being to try and stop pain. Pain in life is inevitable whether it be emotional or physical. I agree with the arguement that you cant just get rid of a child because the condom broke or you didn't use birth control. That baby is a result of that, and just because something unfortunate happened doesn't mean you should have an easy way out.

and, look into the women who started roe v. wade. she later came back saying she wanted to overturn it.

[ThePunkAlien]

Originally Posted by xxEllexx

in some situations the mother is not ready to have a child or does not want a child. if the child is killed as an embryo and therfore obviously not born - it avoids the child having to suffer possible feelings of abandonment and basically not having a family. some people would argue that people who are adopted are the lucky ones - for every person like you there are others who are left in foster care or childrens homes. i know i for one would not want to spend my childhood in a childrens home or jumping from foster care to foster care.

as for your second point, i don't really know where you're coming from with that. as far as i can remember [and no i haven't read back through all my posts] i never said that trauma suffered by the child would make it want to die - although i suppose you raise a good point, in that this could be very possible. i did say that it could suffer long term emotional strain - i definitely believe this to be true. i wasn't adopted and therefore can only go on second hand info, from my friend. but i know that she suffers a lot still with feelings of abandonment and wonders why at times she wasn't just aborted.

Here's the thing that nonadoptees don't understand, yes there are these feelings - yes it can be rough - I am actually a testament to that if you read through my other threads. All concerning an identity crises I'm going through. I have even stated before that I have regressed to a point of being frozen solid and utterly afraid and crying while asking "why? why did you leave me?" Thus, that pain is very real - but, it's not enough to truly make someone want to die. You also have to be mindful that we live in many alternate realities, thus what your friend said would be more in tune to REGULAR people saying that they want to die... this is not exclusive to being an adoptee, it's part of the human condition.

Still, take a survey of adoptees and orphans asking them if they'd rather be alive than dead - you would find a striking number saying... ALIVE. I've looked into it while dealing with my crises that every adoptee goes through at some point in their life, books, other adoptees, etc. The urge to find birth parents and fear of rejection from people is very strong - but, they're not any worse than the scars every other person bears. It's not exactly that great being an alien, nor is it bad. It just is and fluctuates. Good days, bad days - we're, overall, normal people.

So coming from someone who LIVES through this, it wouldn't be kinder to have aborted me. You say that to numerous adoptees, you'd find a great number actually disturbed by statements like that... maybe we say things sometimes without knowing how other people may respond because it's not in their lives, but it's not wanting death. It can be misinterpreted by the nonadoptee, believe me - my adoptive parents have no idea of how I feel... whenever I say something negative about it, they feel my life is torn apart and ruined - then I have to remind them that despite that I still like the life I have and wouldn't trade it up for anything.

So, in effect, you can't really understand it just through hearing it. You have to live it.

Believe whatever you want about the girl, but as the child - I find your thoughts to be really off... just as off as that earlier poster who said they thought I'd be better off dead without realizing what they said.

---------------

The bigmole, no that comment was not directed towards you. I forgot about you. That comment was towards the person who stated earlier, and others who think like that, "I simply don't want to give birth and would opt for abortion because I don't want to waste time with that, I'd rather follow my career"... that shows very little of selfsacricing which truly needs to be at the heart of a parent rather than selfserving which comments like that show in abundance. So rest assured, that was not you.

As for your second point, doesn't need to be brought up. I think what I think, you think what you think. Stronger connection was brought back up when a poster stated specifically adoption for which their experience is only second-hand and it's my life, thus naturally I am a lot more connected to it than the poster.

[losing touch.]

Originally Posted by rainontheground

simply because I dislike the debate about when the fetus becomes a human being. the point is, no matter WHEN it actually becomes a human being, if you allow it, it WILL become a human being.

while that's true, it still doesn't change the fact that the embryo is not a human being and therfore a) doesn't have the rights of a human being, and is therfore not protected by law and b) does not have the capacity to have feelings or opinions - hence, the decision being the womans as to whether she wants to abort or not.

Originally Posted by rainontheground

I think abortion has came into being to try and stop pain. Pain in life is inevitable whether it be emotional or physical. I agree with the arguement that you cant just get rid of a child because the condom broke or you didn't use birth control. That baby is a result of that, and just because something unfortunate happened doesn't mean you should have an easy way out.

pain in life is inevitable - of course. but if something is going to have a profoundly negative impact on your life - like having a baby, i don't see what's wrong with abortion.
just because the condom broke you shouldn't have the easy way out? says who? you?.. well that's all fair and good but unfortunately you don't speak for everyone, and a lot of people disagree with this.
i wouldn't exactly describe abortion as the easy way out - it's not going to be an easy decision for most people to abort their child. easier way possibly - as i don't think it's as bad as having an unwanted child, hence i'm for aborting in this circumstance.

[thebigmole]

Originally Posted by rainontheground

first of all, I am a girl who believes that abortion is wrong.

simply because I dislike the debate about when the fetus becomes a human being. the point is, no matter WHEN it actually becomes a human being, if you allow it, it WILL become a human being.

I think abortion has came into being to try and stop pain. Pain in life is inevitable whether it be emotional or physical. I agree with the arguement that you cant just get rid of a child because the condom broke or you didn't use birth control. That baby is a result of that, and just because something unfortunate happened doesn't mean you should have an easy way out.

and, look into the women who started roe v. wade. she later came back saying she wanted to overturn it.

Yes but we are also preventing potential human beings from being created when we use contraceptives as well. Is that wrong or bad.

For the millionth time abortion is not an easy choice.

And the I saw an interview with the Roe v Wade woman and she changed her mind because a friend showed her the results of late term abortions which are COMPLETELY different than the abortions she fought to legalize. She was misinformed and now she feels guilty for something she shouldn't.

[asphyxiated]

Originally Posted by Josh

Still another side of the coin, would you eliminate a life growing inside you just because it was a painful experience of what happened to you? Believe me, that I can sympathsize with - but, again, why is abortion a necessity over simply giving the child up for adoption?
.

I hear what you're saying, but if I was raped and considered giving the child up for adoption, I would not want my rapist's seed growing within me. It would be a constant reminder of what was stolen from me- an almost year long reminder.

[losing touch.]

Originally Posted by Josh

Here's the thing that nonadoptees don't understand, yes there are these feelings - yes it can be rough - I am actually a testament to that if you read through my other threads. All concerning an identity crises I'm going through. I have even stated before that I have regressed to a point of being frozen solid and utterly afraid and crying while asking "why? why did you leave me?" Thus, that pain is very real - but, it's not enough to truly make someone want to die. You also have to be mindful that we live in many alternate realities, thus what your friend said would be more in tune to REGULAR people saying that they want to die... this is not exclusive to being an adoptee, it's part of the human condition.

i don't even think i brought up suicide, i don't think it's particularly relevent to this debate anyway.

Originally Posted by Josh

Still, take a survey of adoptees and orphans asking them if they'd rather be alive than dead - you would find a striking number saying... ALIVE. I've looked into it while dealing with my crises that every adoptee goes through at some point in their life, books, other adoptees, etc. The urge to find birth parents and fear of rejection from people is very strong - but, they're not any worse than the scars every other person bears. It's not exactly that great being an alien, nor is it bad. It just is and fluctuates. Good days, bad days - we're, overall, normal people.

so a striking number would say they'd rather be alive.. what point are you trying to prove? i've already said how that's irrelevent because the embryo does not have an opinion of whether it wants to be alive or dead. you cannot bring how you feel now into a debate about abortion. what you're describing is linked to adoption - not abortion. and for the record i never said you weren't normal people. can i just repeat myself again.. this thread is about abortion, not adoption. while i can see how they are loosely connected, when it comes down to it adoptees were not aborted and aborted embryos were obviously not adopted.

Originally Posted by Josh

So coming from someone who LIVES through this, it wouldn't be kinder to have aborted me. You say that to numerous adoptees, you'd find a great number actually disturbed by statements like that... maybe we say things sometimes without knowing how other people may respond because it's not in their lives, but it's not wanting death. It can be misinterpreted by the nonadoptee, believe me - my adoptive parents have no idea of how I feel... whenever I say something negative about it, they feel my life is torn apart and ruined - then I have to remind them that despite that I still like the life I have and wouldn't trade it up for anything.

you're putting words in my mouth. i never said that you should have been aborted. your mother obviously didn't want to abort you - so she didn't. end of story.

Originally Posted by Josh

So, in effect, you can't really understand it just through hearing it. You have to live it.

Believe whatever you want about the girl, but as the child - I find your thoughts to be really off... just as off as that earlier poster who said they thought I'd be better off dead without realizing what they said.

i might not understand the ins and outs of how adoptions effects a child - but as i've already said a hundred times already, this isn't primarily about adoption. therfore, i'm just as entitled to my opinion about abortion as you, and my opinion has just as much significance.

i'm not just considering the mother here - i'm not that stupid. i do realise that there are two parties involved here. i already made a post about the child, as you asked.

you find my thoughts to be really off. does it really matter what you think of my thoughts? not really. they still stand no matter what your opinion is. not everyone is going to agree with you, and just because i don't you seem to be disregarding what i'm saying and skirting around the point.

[ThePunkAlien]

Originally Posted by asphyxiated

I hear what you're saying, but if I was raped and considered giving the child up for adoption, I would not want my rapist's seed growing within me. It would be a constant reminder of what was stolen from me- an almost year long reminder.

Having not known a person in this situation, I cannot say for sure, but I do wonder whether or not some women may regret it later on in their life and wish that they would have held in there and given the child up for adoption. Because if that does occur, I'd actually think it would add to the pain and make it last longer... as said, don't know for sure, but that's kinda what I question when it comes to rape victims. So it's still more, what's in their best interest and would it add to it in some cases.

--------

Elle, you stated the adopted CHILD. That is what I'm replying to, that you thought it would be kinder for the child to abort it rather than surrender it (orphanage, adoption, etc.).

Hey, you brought it up, you also asked earlier how I could have a stronger connection than you will ever have to that quote... well, it's my life - the adoptee. And no it would not be kinder to have aborted me, that statement did disturb me. Second hand isn't good enough, experiences and emotions - which I can account for - get lost in translation.

You didn't say suicide per se, but the way you stated it kind of made it seem like you thought you're friend wondering why they were born - "why wasn't I aborted?" - as a really detremental part of their life, while really it's more of a casual bad day thing that I've seen A LOT of nonadoptees go through... we just live in a world of fantasy and multiple-dimensions in which many routes are possible.

My previous statement has nothing to do with feeling like I can see there's life in an embryo, it's about seeing things as an adoptee to your rash comment that abortion is "kinder" in situations where the mother doesn't want the child which describes every adoption for whatever reason it's not wanted - why else do they put it up for adoption? They don't plan to get pregnant and put the child up for adoption...

[losing touch.]

Originally Posted by Josh

Elle, you stated the adopted CHILD. That is what I'm replying to, that you thought it would be kinder for the child to abort it rather than surrender it (orphanage, adoption, etc.).

Hey, you brought it up, you also asked earlier how I could have a stronger connection than you will ever have to that quote... well, it's my life - the adoptee. And no it would not be kinder to have aborted me, that statement did disturb me. Second hand isn't good enough, experiences and emotions - which I can account for - get lost in translation.

well if it's aborted at the embryo stage, it obviously doesn't have the chance to develop into a child..

and no i didn't ask earlier how you could have a stronger connection than i have, please if you're going to quote me - then at least be accurate with it. what i said was that you can't make sweeping statement claiming that you basically know more than everyone else because of your situation.

i don't know how many times i have to say this - but i'll say it again. you can say as much as you like "it wouldn't have been kinder to abort me" or "i would rather be alive." however, this is the key point that you seem to be missing.. the embryo does not have feelings as to whether it wants to be alive or dead.

of course, now that you're grown up you're going to say that it obviously wouldn't have been kinder to abort you - but had you been aborted as an embryo you'd be none the wiser and therfore wouldn't have the opportunity to form any kind of opinion on it at all.

[thebigmole]

Elle I think he was indirectly responding to my post.
"I'm trying so hard to control myself, I just can't stand it when you say that you have a deeper connection to this topic than a woman does. You are not a survivor of abortion (and there are some out there who have legitimately survived an abortion attempt). You were unwanted yes, guess what so was my mother. Her parents were 17 she was unexpected but they kept her and had three more kids later. She doesn't go around saying she has this deep connection to the abortion topic. If we were talking adoption, I'd be all for you. But not this."

[ThePunkAlien]

I DO know more about your claim that it would be "kinder to abort the child than to put it up for adoption" when the child isn't wanted for whatever reason. Because that's my life you're talking about. Not everyone, just we - adoptees, orphans, etc. - know a lot more than anyone lucky enough to live with their natural parents could ever know or understand. That is a fact.

If you try to say it's not, I'll ask you this. There's a man with one arm, you've heard from other similar people what it's like to only live with one arm - can you honestly say you know just as much as the man with only one arm?

The fact that subconsciously somewhere remembers that time, shows me that it's a life. Plus the studies I have read which show that... thus, no I don't personally think it's right. But, I can't force anyone to change their opinion I can only state mine.

[losing touch.]

oh right, i thought that bit was a little confusing, lol. apologies for that Josh.

[ThePunkAlien]

Originally Posted by thebigmole

Elle I think he was indirectly responding to my post.
"I'm trying so hard to control myself, I just can't stand it when you say that you have a deeper connection to this topic than a woman does. You are not a survivor of abortion (and there are some out there who have legitimately survived an abortion attempt). You were unwanted yes, guess what so was my mother. Her parents were 17 she was unexpected but they kept her and had three more kids later. She doesn't go around saying she has this deep connection to the abortion topic. If we were talking adoption, I'd be all for you. But not this."

I don't believe so, but there's been so many people that I've been responding to that they're all kinda mixed into one person...

Did Elle ask or not ask how I could have a stronger connection to her quote concerning ADOPTEES, of which I am, than she does? Or was that a mix-up of replies coming from two seperate posters? Because it's becoming all one person, that's how many have replied.

[losing touch.]

Originally Posted by Josh

I DO know more about your claim that it would be "kinder to abort the child than to put it up for adoption" when the child isn't wanted for whatever reason. Because that's my life you're talking about. Not everyone, just we - adoptees, orphans, etc. - know a lot more than anyone lucky enough to live with their natural parents could ever know or understand. That is a fact.

If you try to say it's not, I'll ask you this. There's a man with one arm, you've heard from other similar people what it's like to only live with one arm - can you honestly say you know just as much as the man with only one arm?

The fact that subconsciously somewhere remembers that time, shows me that it's a life. Plus the studies I have read which show that... thus, no I don't personally think it's right. But, I can't force anyone to change their opinion I can only state mine.

no, it's not your life i'm talking about - because if you'd been aborted as an embryo you wouldn't have had a life. so how is it you i am referring to? you might know a lot more about adoption, fair enough.. but that doesn't mean that you're opinions on abortion are any more right or wrong than anyone else's.

as for the man with one arm, yes i totally agree - and i've accepted that you have more first hand experience with adoption - but i would just like to say again that this isn't about adoption!!

edit: no, i didn't ask that.. as i've already said.

[Jack]

Originally Posted by Josh

If you try to say it's not, I'll ask you this. There's a man with one arm, you've heard from other similar people what it's like to only live with one arm - can you honestly say you know just as much as the man with only one arm?

Does the person with one arm know more about other people, similarly disabled, who also only have one arm than those people do? Not all people placed into adoption feel the same way as you do on the topic of abortion.

The fact that subconsciously somewhere remembers that time, shows me that it's a life. Plus the studies I have read which show that... thus, no I don't personally think it's right. But, I can't force anyone to change their opinion I can only state mine.

Maybe you could provide some of those studies? And/or explain how someone is able to remember a time when they had no working brain?

[Hdjdjdjduvieg]

Although I'm not entirely pro-choice...
Josh, you'll never be the one to get pregnant. You cannot make decisions for people who are in the situation when you never will be. End of story.

[ThePunkAlien]

Originally Posted by xxEllexx

no, it's not your life i'm talking about - because if you'd been aborted as an embryo you wouldn't have had a life. so how is it you i am referring to? you might know a lot more about adoption, fair enough.. but that doesn't mean that you're opinions on abortion are any more right or wrong than anyone else's.

as for the man with one arm, yes i totally agree - and i've accepted that you have more first hand experience with adoption - but i would just like to say again that this isn't about adoption!!

edit: no, i didn't ask that.. as i've already said.

Kinda did and didn't actually, but guessing we both took it out of context when you stated this...

i can see how being in your situation as an adoptee [?] it would lead you to have these opinions. however, you can't just disregard others opinions because of your personal set of circumstances. in this debate the fact that you were adopted doesn't mean that your opinion has any more weight or significance than anyone else's to be quite honest.

It was back when I first asked you to clarify what you meant by your "kinder" post... thus, I took it as you stating everyone has the same degree of information concerning whether it would or wouldn't be "kinder" to abort than to surrender for adoption... so it was more disjointed of thinking - two people relaying information, two completely seperate wavelengths.

[losing touch.]

yeah i see what you mean, kind of a misunderstanding. but just to clarify, i wasn't asking you to justify why you have a closer connection to this than anyone else.

but this thread has truely zapped my little brain. :[ anyway, its 5am so i'm off to sleep.

[ThePunkAlien]

Originally Posted by Jack

Does the person with one arm know more about other people, similarly disabled, who also only have one arm than those people do? Not all people placed into adoption feel the same way as you do on the topic of abortion.



Maybe you could provide some of those studies? And/or explain how someone is able to remember a time when they had no working brain?

You took what was stated out of context, but in case you did read everything correctly... Go ahead, do a study asking whether any adoptee or orphan would agree with the quote: "it would be kinder in some situations to abort the child than to put the child up for adoption" and see what kind of results you'd get. That's not asking what they think women should do about abortion, that's asking if they'd rather be aborted and see it as kinder if they were aborted. You'd see more disturbed reactions than anything else. Simply put, it wasn't about abortion - rather that quote that I was replying to which I hope was somewhat lost in translation.

As for your second part, man I only know the studies (for which I gave the pages in the book earlier you can go check out which have studies of how life goes on inside the girl) and what I've read and what's done to me on a PRIMAL emotional level, that I don't even understand... thus, the identity crises. I have no idea why I feel this way towards a mother and father I haven't even seen or met, I inherently just do. It's like asking why do people love? Why do people become afraid? Why do people hate? They just do. That's the confusing part. You feel something, but you don't know why you feel it this strong because you've never met them other than those nine months. So, in effect, something has got to happen and more and more research is showing that there is a type of bonding that does go on which does explain it. It's in those studies I've provided the page and book title for on google books - the best words I've heard describe that make sense on a more emotional level is that for those nine months there's a "sharing of souls." I don't remember it, but that's the only logic my brain can see as the best possibility.

In effect, it's not logical. But, neither is breaking down and crying for a mother you never knew, becoming afraid and frozen, and feeling feelings that only link back to a person that you somehow feel that you know but never knew your whole life. Those emotions and reactions alone shouldn't be logical, they just are. They're primal.

Not many have to regress to the point of feeling your world shattering at the moment of their life, they're lucky enough to live with their natural parents. If you read up on hardships adoptees go through and how this also occurs strongly in reunions - regressing - to me that shows that there's something there, there has to be - why else would a person react like that to a person they never knew or seen? All that's shared are those nine months.

Originally Posted by Scout

Although I'm not entirely pro-choice...
Josh, you'll never be the one to get pregnant. You cannot make decisions for people who are in the situation when you never will be. End of story.

No, no one can make decisions. But, people can speak their mind and opinion. People have and don't have first hand experience at being pregnant, but I do strongly believe that the father should play an active role in it.

Now as a guy, I can't make a girl do anything. But I certainly don't have to remain neutral and if she does it, I certainly don't need to stick by her side because of that. So while I can't make decisions, as part of the equation I can feel or not feel a certain way about it. Or has the father become a Vulcan all of a sudden?

[Jack]

Originally Posted by Josh

Go ahead, do a study asking whether any adoptee or orphan would agree with the quote: "it would be kinder in some situations to abort the child than to put the child up for adoption" and see what kind of results you'd get. That's not asking what they think women should do about abortion, that's asking if they'd rather be aborted and see it as kinder if they were aborted. You'd see more disturbed reactions than anything else.

Yes, but that is hardly the first time in this debate you've claimed to have a more valid opinion because you are adopted.

As for your second part, man I only know the studies and what I've read and what's done to me on a PRIMAL emotional level, that I don't even understand... thus, the identity crises.

Then perhaps you could share those studies?

I have no idea why I feel this way towards a mother and father I haven't even seen or met, I inherently just do. It's like asking why do people love? Why do people become afraid? Why do people hate? They just do.

Since when do they "just do". People have done studies on those things and found at least several plausible reasons for them. Freud did studies on phoibias and Dr Helen Fisher has done several studies on love to name just two. To say they "just do" is a cop-out.

That's the confusing part. You feel something, but you don't know why you feel it this strong because you've never met them other than those nine months. So, in effect, something has got to happen and more and more research is showing that there is a type of bonding that does go on which does explain it. I don't remember it, but that's the only logic my brain can see as the best possibility.

Well Bowlby (1951) put forward the view that the the special bond forms with the mother in the 6 months after birth, not in the womb. And Hodges and Tizard in "Social and Family Relationships of Ex-Insitiutional Adolescents" came to the conclusion that adopted kids have a much better relationship with their adopted parents than kids who had been restored to their biological parents after a period in foster care during early childhood. To me it seems that the bond with a biological parent in the womb is just wishful thinking based on insecurities centred around being adopted, however I don't claim to know everything. But I do wish that you would share the studies you keep talking about so I could read them myself.

[Confused1isin]

I'm loving this return of the repeat circus act!

[ThePunkAlien]

LINK
JOURNEY OF THE ADOPTED SELF

Go to page thirty. Hopefully that works. That's one of the books, but I found it to be one of the most enlightening. It's around three pages and kinda small print, thus copying it would take about an hour that I don't have. But, hopefully that link will work.

As said, and one of the books stated in those trying to understand why they feel this way - don't use your brain, it'll tell you what you're feeling isn't logical, follow your heart and what you feel. For me I have seriously repressed to a point that I didn't even have control over myself man. I can't explain this, it's scary - it's primal. It feels like, in a way, I've become a wolf who's lost it's pack. Those are the best words I can use to describe it and other adoptees looking back on their own crises that some go through and their reunion with their parents - very strong and primal feelings are at play here.

Every one of us have different experiences, some feel it more than others, some don't even feel it or acknowledge it at all. Hell, I'm going through it and I can't even understand it because I know what I'm going through by all logical terms shouldn't make sense.

The scene that's always struck me is Luke Skywalker watching the sky seeing the dual sunsets. That's my life.

[Jack]

Originally Posted by Josh

LINK
JOURNEY OF THE ADOPTED SELF

Go to page thirty. Hopefully that works. That's one of the books, but I found it to be one of the most enlightening. It's around three pages and kinda small print, thus copying it would take about an hour that I don't have. But, hopefully that link will work.

As said, and one of the books stated in those trying to understand why they feel this way - don't use your brain, it'll tell you what you're feeling isn't logical, follow your heart and what you feel. For me I have seriously repressed to a point that I didn't even have control over myself man. I can't explain this, it's scary - it's primal. It feels like, in a way, I've become a wolf who's lost it's pack. Those are the best words I can use to describe it and other adoptees looking back on their own crises that some go through and their reunion with their parents - very strong and primal feelings are at play here.

Every one of us have different experiences, some feel it more than others, some don't even feel it or acknowledge it at all. Hell, I'm going through it and I can't even understand it because I know what I'm going through by all logical terms shouldn't make sense.

I can't access the book. However, if you would read the review on that page you linked to it rather seems to sum up what I thought when I found a couple of pages from it elsewhere. I would also like to read a "study" which you claim to have read, that book is not a study.

Anyway, this is rather off the topic of abortion.

[Gixxers rock]

Spoken like a person who hasn't done their homework.

Take this case scenario, if a mother gives birth and in the process would die, is an abortion justifiable? Assuming everybody has an equal right to life, the baby and the mother then are one for one, however, a woman also has the right to decide what goes on inside her body, so now you have two rights outweiging one.

Another case scenario, rape. Imagine waking up one day, to find out you were kidnapped by a group of people who have surgically attached your kidney to that of a dieing violinist. If you disconnect the machine that connects you two, he will die. The people who hijacked you are very sorry but reassure you that in 12 months time the violinist's kidney would have healed and you would be free to go. In this scenario you are not obligated in any way to help the violinist, even though it would be very nice of you if you did. But what if it wasn't only for twelve months? What if you have to spend the rest of your life living with and supporting the violinist?

(Brownie points go to the person who took philosophy and can name the author whose arguments I shamelessly jacked)

Interesting fact: the biggest supporters of pro-life are men, and women who can no-longer, or ever could, have children.

[ThePunkAlien]

Sounds like a person who hasn't read the thread actually. I don't feel like repeating myself, so do your homework and read through these pages in which those points have already been adressed and I stated in those extreme situations it's perfectly understandable.

Originally Posted by Jack

I can't access the book. However, if you would read the review on that page you linked to it rather seems to sum up what I thought when I found a couple of pages from it elsewhere. I would also like to read a "study" which you claim to have read, that book is not a study.

Anyway, this is rather off the topic of abortion.

You asked me man, you wanted to know... I can sum it up in this:

> Responds to mother's voice
> Responds to music, has rhythm.
> Belief of "prepsychological dialogue" - in other words as I stated earlier the sharing of souls. It's like growing up in a cave connected by a cord to someone you need in order to survive.

There are other points, but those I find the most intriguing in what goes on inside.

As I said, I and other adoptees I've talked to who felt this way, know it doesn't and shouldn't make sense how we feel. After all, we never knew them. This goes for adoptees who have even had the BEST family homes possible. You can even take it in most adoptees know they're adopted without having to be told - even those who are told much later in life can account to the feeling that they've known it their whole life, just didn't know if it meant anything. And the day of birth? This is usually the most depressing day - it's in the books, people I've talked to on adoption forums, and sites online. Jw, what does "happy" birthday feel like? Because it's kinda like no matter how good that day is I unconsciously ruin it and/or feel... disconnected no matter how many people I'm around. Like every single one, my whole life.

[InSovietRussiaORGASMGotU]

Originally Posted by Josh

I DO know more about your claim that it would be "kinder to abort the child than to put it up for adoption" when the child isn't wanted for whatever reason. Because that's my life you're talking about. Not everyone, just we - adoptees, orphans, etc. - know a lot more than anyone lucky enough to live with their natural parents could ever know or understand. That is a fact.

That's wonderful that you were adopted however it does not make your claims any more valid than someone who is not adopted.

Originally Posted by Josh

If you try to say it's not, I'll ask you this. There's a man with one arm, you've heard from other similar people what it's like to only live with one arm - can you honestly say you know just as much as the man with only one arm?

No I cannot know as much as that man does. But I do know that his opinions on it do not carry any more or less weight than someone with both arms.

Originally Posted by Josh

The fact that subconsciously somewhere remembers that time, shows me that it's a life. Plus the studies I have read which show that... thus, no I don't personally think it's right. But, I can't force anyone to change their opinion I can only state mine.

Which studies? Do the embryos (not the fetuses) have any memory despite lacking a brain and all sensory organs? When you answered it last time, you gave me a link to a book (Journey of the Adopted Self). Unfortunately, according to the review, it is an unbalanced, biased book. I say that is what the reviewer says because that link does not allow me to read it.

Originally Posted by Gixxers rock

Take this case scenario, if a mother gives birth and in the process would die, is an abortion justifiable? Assuming everybody has an equal right to life, the baby and the mother then are one for one, however, a woman also has the right to decide what goes on inside her body, so now you have two rights outweiging one.

The baby does have an equal right to life, however, that does not mean that its view is that it wants/does not want to be born and live. You have two rights in total, yes, but only the mother and the father can voice their opinions unambiguously whereas the baby cannot. Three individuals, three rights but only two usable views.

[ThePunkAlien]

Originally Posted by YourNightmare

No I cannot know as much as that man does. But I do know that his opinions on it do not carry any more or less weight than someone with both arms.

Due to this alone, I'm sorry but I just can't take anything you say seriously now. A man with both arms can truly in all being understand the one armed man and what it feels like to only have one arm?

You can sympathesize with the one armed man, you can try to feel what it's like, but you will never feel anything close to what it's like.

Correct me if I'm wrong but you're saying his opinions of being one armed carry as much weight about being one armed as the man with both arms?

- For those who can't catch it, the man with one arm is an adoptee, the man with two lives with his natural birth parents; this shows how separate they are in nature, how they can try to understand each other - but can't due to this and how they would have difficulty perfectly understanding each other -

I don't know why the link's having problems, from there did anyone click "preview book"? When I linked directly to preview book last time it didn't work, thought to just the main page to navigate to 'preview book' would work-

[Jack]

Originally Posted by Josh

You asked me man, you wanted to know... I can sum it up in this:

> Responds to mother's voice
> Responds to music, has rhythm.
> Belief of "prepsychological dialogue" - in other words as I stated earlier the sharing of souls. It's like growing up in a cave connected by a cord to someone you need in order to survive.

Yes. But the response to stimuli occurs at the mid fetal stage, not the embryonic stage! Nobody argues that the fetus is alive at that stage, at the stage where a baby can respond to stimuli (27 weeks into pregnancy) abortion is already illegal! Hence where is the issue with aborting an embryo? (Pro-tip: The majority of abortions take place in the embryonic stage of pre-natal development.)

Though try running a search for the phrase "prepsychological dialogue". Only one result comes up and it's for that book. If it was a real term or real psychological theory it would be mentioned elsewhere, that book is unreliable and highly opinionated.

[ThePunkAlien]

Originally Posted by Jack

If it was a real term or real psychological theory it would be mentioned elsewhere, that book is unreliable and highly opinionated.

That's actually part of the book and a term stated by an adoptee psychologist. I looked on google and it's not there - just, it makes inherent sense. These books only focus on one side, the negatives, their more for trying to understand hardships. Also it's books I've actually talked to many other adoptees about and they also connect with many of the things presented.

Plus, now, I'll admit semi-defeat. Still not completely okay with it, but it does make me feel extremely better that the fetus stage abortion is illegal since that was my primary concern and what made it a big issue to me.

I answered you question, just - please answer this because, I really want to know - what does happy birthday feel like?

[Jack]

I have no clue what you mean? What does hapy birthday feel like? It's a phrase, it doesn't feel like anything. I would assume someone has said happy birthday to you at some point.

So you concede that using that book as an argument against abortion is wrong?

[Gidig]

Hm. Well.

I believe there is good reason to chose abortion over adoption. That's awesome that you got adopted. What about those children who don't? Or the children who grow up with abusive parents because they didn't want the child to begin with? As bad as it is to say, do you think we have the food and resources to feed every single child that's been aborted? Adoption is not always a realistic thing for people to look for. And while you may have had a good experience with it, some people haven't. It's not always butterflies and rainbows.

I also feel like choosing an abortion is taking responsibility for having sex. While it isn't a birth control, you've chosen what you should do, and what you think is best for everyone involved really.

So you're saying if you have a sex, you will have baby, and shouldn't have the option of getting an abortion, so you technically have to "deal with the consequences". Is that what you want to be called? Your parents consequence for sex? I know I wouldn't appreciate that.

[ThePunkAlien]

I've never used the book as an argument against abortion really, just to show that there's life that occurs. But, as you stated it's mostly in the fetus stage - which is illegal now - which makes things a lot better.

I don't mean the phrase happy birthday. I mean the feeling, on your birthday - what do you feel? Do you feel happy? Do you feel nothing? Do you feel depressed? I'm talking most birthdays here, not just a bad year.. what does that day feel like?

-----------------

For me ADOPTION will always be the better of the two. But, as long as the fetus stage is illegal, that makes me feel a lot better. Because that's, as stated, the stage in which the life really comes into being and living.

What about children who grow up with their natural abusive parents? Should they be dead? What about homeless kids? Should they be dead too? I don't think any of those deserve to be dead. Everyone plays the lottery, but that doesn't mean the losers of that lottery should die or that the lottery shouldn't be played.

Life's harsh, it's cruel, it sucks. But, it's still life and no matter what I'd never trade it up for anything. Nor would I say many others, even in the worst situations, would either. Because at some point you get past it, you move on.

[Aufschlitzer]

To Josh:

One day I was thinking about a number of things, namely, revolving around Abortion. Suppose Abortion were for the most part, done away with. But given that the number of parents looking to adopt children is probably far smaller than the number of abortions performed each year, there will be an excess of children being placed in the foster care system. What do you propose should be done about this?

I have thought about this deeply, and quickly have come up with a number of proposals.

One of the easiest is the strong-armed approach. The government can force every able family to absorb a child who cannot find a foster family. Such law will be enforced through punitive measures - any family that refuses the child will face a variety of unpleasant legal consequences. Granted, this will probably stir up a great furor in any democratic society, and is unlikely to succeed in any place other than some backwards dictatorship.

If one is so uncomfortable with the government having so much power, another idea would be to encourage the private sector to take care of these children. For instance, businesses and corporations could be given tax benefits if they set up their own centers to take care of children without parents. Likewise, families could be given tax incentives to adopt such children. Of course, this system has apparent weaknesses. Could corporations and families cheat the system and falsify such adoptions? Could they adopt large numbers of children, only to neglect them while still reaping tax benefits? If the commodification of children and the reduction of human life into a means of boosting capital is particularly unsettling to you, then I offer another alternative, which I urge you to approach with an open mind.

This proposal assumes on a number of preconditions, namely that the government has 1. enough resources to successfully implement such a plan and 2. has a sound enough infrastructure to uphold the proposal. It aims to strike a balance between choice and overall societal utility.

Instead of families or corporations taking control of the children, suppose the government were to care for the children and have them eligible for quick adoption up to a certain age. To encourage the adoption of these children, families are given tax breaks. But upon reaching a certain age, say, 6, all children who have not yet found families will commence education in privately owned schools that have been contracted by the government. While the schools are privately owned, they must adhere to universal governmental standards with regards to the educational curricula. These schools are designed specifically for one purpose - to provide a comprehensive for all children remaining in the foster system, and prepare them for life as adults. At this point, any children in the system may still be adopted, but the process required to remove them is slightly more difficult.

The children will receive a broad education that encompasses all areas, from the liberal arts to the sciences, from age 6 to 18. This education also includes a prominent physical fitness component. Children who show the most potential in math, science, or the liberal arts, upon reaching proper age, may apply to universities and will have their higher education paid for by the government. Children who do not remain distinguished in any area will be sent to the police and emergency services, military, or receive other vocational training. The number of police/soldiers/firefighters/etc. produced will vary depending on the needs of the country. For instance, if the country were at war, a greater emphasis would be placed on the preparation of new soldiers.

[Gidig]

I really like the way you've thought about it. Though I don't agree - I think you really have some ideas. You seem like you'd be an interesting person to have a conversation with Aufshlitzer.

The thing about all of those options, is that, should the government be allowed to have so much power?

Another thing I think reading this gets across, is what would we do if abortion wasn't legal? And how are we going to correct this? I don't think people think about this at all when saying abortion should not be legal, that we should just have adoption and so forth. But it's not that easy really.

[PhoenixAlive]

Originally Posted by xxEllexx

no, it's not your life i'm talking about - because if you'd been aborted as an embryo you wouldn't have had a life. so how is it you i am referring to? you might know a lot more about adoption, fair enough.. but that doesn't mean that you're opinions on abortion are any more right or wrong than anyone else's.

as for the man with one arm, yes i totally agree - and i've accepted that you have more first hand experience with adoption - but i would just like to say again that this isn't about adoption!!

edit: no, i didn't ask that.. as i've already said.

Yes, the abortion topic is integrally connected to the adoption topic, as adoption is the other option (the option that allows for life) so embryos who do not get aborted would instead later get adopted. And as Josh and I have said before, as adopted children, we definitely prefer being ALIVE to being dead, despite the stigma and emotional troubles that go along with being adopted.

Also, as a woman who is going through an unplanned/unwanted pregnancy, I know that abortions are allowed long after the baby is alive. Even from before the tenth week of pregnancy (abortions are allowed until the 24th week, which is in the second trimester) I felt the emotional bond between myself and the baby. It is impossible to describe. This is something that is not imagined, and millions of women feel the same way. How can a mother feel so innately connected to this baby if it is nothing but a clump of cells? Also, I started feeling my baby move as of around 15 weeks (still well before abortion becomes illegal)

Also, whichever poster said that once the embryo becomes a fetus, abortion is no longer allowed, must have been misinformed. I just checked a fetal development website and it states that an unborn baby becomes a fetus as of ten weeks of pregnancy (long before abortion is not allowed). I also included a link of the fetal development stage at 20 weeks of pregnancy (when a woman would still have no legal trouble getting an abortion) At this stage a fetus can hear and recognize his mother's voice (obviously a live, aware little person in there by now)

"The 1967 Abortion Act makes abortion legal if the pregnancy is less than 24 weeks and two doctors agree that the abortion can be carried out. After 24 weeks an abortion can only take place if the woman's life is in danger or if there is a high risk that the baby would be seriously handicapped."

Here are my sources if you'd like to check.


Week 10 Embryo is now a Fetus - Month 3 Fetal development information your baby is inside you over weeks months trimesters

Abortion information and advice (England)

How far into pregnancy can you obtain an abortion? - Yahoo! Answers (U.S. and Canada)

Abortion Procedures : American Pregnancy Association (U.S. abortion procedures)

http://www.baby2see.com/development/week20.html (fetus at twenty weeks of pregnancy)

[losing touch.]

Originally Posted by PhoenixAlive

Yes, the abortion topic is integrally connected to the adoption topic, as adoption is the other option (the option that allows for life) so embryos who do not get aborted would instead later get adopted. And as Josh and I have said before, as adopted children, we definitely prefer being ALIVE to being dead, despite the stigma and emotional troubles that go along with being adopted.

i think i've already said it, but.. you can't take into account what you think about whether you want to be alive or not now. the embryo is killed before it has the chance to develop feelings about life or death. i don't quite know what point you're trying to make by saying you want to be alive now, because as i've said the embryo won't have the ability to have such an opinion.

if you were aborted then you wouldn't think this way, because you wouldn't think anything.

[thebigmole]

Originally Posted by Gixxers rock

Spoken like a person who hasn't done their homework.

Take this case scenario, if a mother gives birth and in the process would die, is an abortion justifiable? Assuming everybody has an equal right to life, the baby and the mother then are one for one, however, a woman also has the right to decide what goes on inside her body, so now you have two rights outweiging one.

Another case scenario, rape. Imagine waking up one day, to find out you were kidnapped by a group of people who have surgically attached your kidney to that of a dieing violinist. If you disconnect the machine that connects you two, he will die. The people who hijacked you are very sorry but reassure you that in 12 months time the violinist's kidney would have healed and you would be free to go. In this scenario you are not obligated in any way to help the violinist, even though it would be very nice of you if you did. But what if it wasn't only for twelve months? What if you have to spend the rest of your life living with and supporting the violinist?

(Brownie points go to the person who took philosophy and can name the author whose arguments I shamelessly jacked)

Interesting fact: the biggest supporters of pro-life are men, and women who can no-longer, or ever could, have children.

Were you by any chance in Dr. Money's Honors Seminar class at Millikin University? We covered so many authors I can't remember who wrote the violinist senario but we read that exact thing. Ahha I found it in my reading, Judith Jarvis Thomson.

Anyway I still don't get why adoptees have any closer of a connection to this argument than anyone else, especially if you do not know for a fact abortion was even considered in your case. It could be that your mother didn't know she was pregnant until too late, in that case she didn't even really make the decision to keep the baby it was taken from her is she still all that brave. Or your mother could have been extremely religious and the thought never crossed her mind. You do not know and that's why I'm not buying it.

[Jack]

Originally Posted by PhoenixAlive

Also, whichever poster said that once the embryo becomes a fetus, abortion is no longer allowed, must have been misinformed. I just checked a fetal development website and it states that an unborn baby becomes a fetus as of ten weeks of pregnancy (long before abortion is not allowed). I also included a link of the fetal development stage at 20 weeks of pregnancy (when a woman would still have no legal trouble getting an abortion) At this stage a fetus can hear and recognize his mother's voice (obviously a live, aware little person in there by now)

I never said that when it becomes a fetus it becomes illegal. I said that when it can conciously respond to stimuli it is, in most countries, illegal to abort it. However it appears I was wrong about that if it can respond at 20 weeks although only 11% of abortions are carried out after week 13 and something nearer 2% are carried out after 20 weeks. And at that stage it's hardly just decided on a whim as there are guidelines people must meet in order to be allowed an abortion. Though my main point stands, which was that I can's see any reason why aborting an embryowould be "wrong".

Note: The number of late term abortions comes from the British department of health (Stats: Here) however all other countries have lower late term abortion rates. (Canada only 3% of abortions take place betwen 17 weeks and gestation. (here etc).

If he were arguing that late term abortions are wrong and should only be allowed in cases of medical danger to the mother then I would be in agreement with him. However as they constitute such a small amount of abortions I hardly think you can use an argument against late term abortions against all abortions.

[PhoenixAlive]

I would argue that after 10 weeks (once the baby is considered a "fetus"), abortion should not be allowed. Because at 10 weeks all of the baby's organs are in place. (including the brain and the heart). That is a baby.

Before 10 weeks, I am not as against abortion. But I believe that according to my reading, before 10 weeks, all you have to do is take a pill? Correct me if I'm wrong.