Triggering: Abortion is wrong.

[losing touch.]

Originally Posted by Josh

Check this out to find how real the "unborn baby" actually is.

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If anything, I've found out from replies how important it is asking a girl what she thinks about abortion prior to having sex with her is. The whole "men have no rights" thing is really disturbing me that some think the father should have no say at all. So for those saying that, thanks for showing me how sexist some girls can be and that I have to know her beliefs prior to anything. Also it's true some men make better fathers than women can ever make mothers; because I already know I'd sacrifice my life for my child and will never become my birth father. Some guys feel just as passionately if not, sometimes as shown in this thread, more so than girls do about parenthood and the responsibilities that entails.

you might call it sexist, i call it common sense. womans body, womans choice.. i don't see what's so unfair about that? everyone has their own opinion on abortion and however hard you try you're not going to change some peoples minds.

[ThePunkAlien]

Originally Posted by xxEllexx

you might call it sexist, i call it common sense. womans body, womans choice.. i don't see what's so unfair about that? everyone has their own opinion on abortion and however hard you try you're not going to change some peoples minds.

All I'm saying is from what I see, some men can obviously make better fathers than some women can make mothers. That's actually a fact in my mind now. Some people are cut out for parenthood, others would rather throw it in the dirt for their own future. And by parenthood - I mean being strong enough to go through with it & keep or surrender for adoption. That's why in adoption there's "two sets of parents."

--------------------------

JACK:

In the right world, in my mind, people would take responsibilities for their actions and think more for their child than what is in their social best interest. I say social because I've already said in extreme cases, like birth defects or fatality - it would be perfectly understandable if not the best option.

Research and studies do show, as I have provided part of the research for below, that the unborn baby is in fact a living being. I was actually surprised by what I read and found out, I naturally used to think it was only a living breathing being after it came out - newer research is showing it starts much earlier than that.

Choosing to hold off on sex being a crime is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard, that's called being responsible and waiting until you are ready to bring a life into the world. If a life is brought into the world and one is not yet ready, in my mind, adoption is the best solution because it would not be terminating the life inside the womb - which research shows does exist.

Not all weigh all the possible choices and consequences, some do but others don't, in a right world they would but - yet again - the way the world works isn't right.

[Beth.]

I'm for abortion in the right circumstances, like getting raped and such. Also, guys shouldn't act like they have any idea of how it feels to be in that situation. Men could easily just walk out while the woman is pregnant and not be effected by it at all. Surely, people should handle the consequences of having sex. But not everyone is even financially stable for a child. Some people would not want to give a child up to adoption because they want to be able to raise their first child. I really believe guys have no room to talk on this subject. By the way! Your not fucking weak just because you have an abortion. Try getting raped and see how it feels to have an abortion. How is that being weak?! That's being strong. Abortions are alot to go through, and sure it was the womans decision but it wasn't her choice to get raped or sexually abused. Just because you were from an unplanned pregnancy does not mean you have any idea how it is. Even girls who haven't been pregnant have more opinion then men every will. I'm not even sexist, but with this topic I just feel that men don't have a place. They wouldn't be the one carrying the baby, raising it (if they keep it), dealing with the aftermath if they give it up for abortion, etc..

[ThePunkAlien]

Do all guys? No, but I'd say the guys who's origins are exclusively tied into the adoption/abortion definitely have a stronger connection to it than girls who have never been pregnant and girls who go through a stable pregnancy. But, I'd say that would be more of an exception because they've spent their whole life in that world in an experience that others probably never had.

Btw, why does everyone keep bringing up rape when I keep saying rare situations have their own merits? Yes, I believe there may be more guilt - but I'd say it definitely is more understandable than "oh no, my parents will find out" or "oh no, my future's gonna be ruined now." Those two examples are not good excuses in my books and I thank God that those who think that way aren't my birth mother.

As said, from what I've seen and heard today - some girls don't sound cut out to be parents if they truly think that way. Because parenting means doing what's best for the child, being self-sacrificing rather than self-serving.

[Lugez]

My only gripe with adoption is that it can only work to such an extent.

If you throw every single unwanted child into adoption, you're going to have HUGE numbers of kids in foster homes. Eventually, the majority of these children will never even find homes. Parents don't want to adopt kids, they want to adopt INFANTS. The older the kids get, the less likely they'll be adopted...Plus, there is going to be far more children available than people asking for them.

I also hate the argument that people "shouldn't be having sex in the first place." Because people ARE having sex, and it's not going to stop. So you need to find a way to work with it, not prevent it.

However, Josh, in terms of the ethics of abortion, I would have to agree with you.

...If somehow I would get my girfriend pregnant...I would strongly urge her to keep the baby. For all the points above...I don't want to give up my kid, no matter what.

..However, I understand not everyone holds this same view as me. Is it my place to FORCE everyone else to do the same thing I would do? No, I don't think so. I understand everyone's situation is different, and I don't think the same solution is the way to go every time.

[Khadra]

Saying guys' opinions on abortion are not valid is not fair. I don't think they should be allowed to force their girlfriend into continuing a pregnancy, but they still deserve a say on the topic of abortion in general. People against abortion (male or female) feel as they do because they want to protect the fetus/baby, not because they want to make the woman suffer. It's not about the woman's body. It's about believing that the fetus/baby is an individual human being who deserves the right to life. Besides that, even most of us females have never been raped or pregnant, so how can you possibly say you have more of a right than a guy does to have an opinion on the subject?

[ThePunkAlien]

Originally Posted by Khadra

Saying guys' opinions on abortion are not valid is not fair. I don't think they should be allowed to force their girlfriend into continuing a pregnancy, but they still deserve a say on the topic of abortion in general.

Exactly, I wouldn't force her to go through with the pregnancy. I'd find out beforehand her opinions on it, because it would wreck my life if I got a girl pregnant and she aborted it. But, I'd say if she goes back on that I'd cut her out of my life entirely - because it would be too painful of a reminder for me of what I lost. Being adopted, the most important thing in my life that I look forward to and hope for is a family of my own.

[losing touch.]

Originally Posted by Josh

All I'm saying is from what I see, some men can obviously make better fathers than some women can make mothers. That's actually a fact in my mind now. Some people are cut out for parenthood, others would rather throw it in the dirt for their own future. And by parenthood - I mean being strong enough to go through with it & keep or surrender for adoption. That's why in adoption there's "two sets of parents."

who are you to say who would make a good parent and who wouldn't? just because someone thinks that women should have the choice of abortion, it doesn't mean that they wouldn't make a good parents to a child that they want and will love.

I still think you're missing the point. the debate here isn't about who makes a good parent and whether men make good fathers. the fact is there, the embryo is inside the woman and therfore i believe that it should be her decision to decide what she does with it.

you could be the best father in the world, good for you.. but does that mean you have a say in what a woman does with her body? not really.

[Brandon]

Although I've agreed on all of your other statements, "if you use protection, you're more than likely not to get pregnant" is inaccurate. You would be surprised how many babies are born to those who used condoms especially. They are not as fool-proof as is put out there. From personal experience I can tell you that ermm... malfunctions definitely do happen.

It's not inaccurate though. You have a 15% chance of getting pregnant when you use a condom, but don't forget that other 85%. Like I said, you're more than likely not to get pregnant. 15% is a large number, but 85% is also a large number that you won't get pregnant. Therefore, I don't think I'm inaccurate at all.

As for the statistic, I am quite shocked about the whole "15 out of 100". I didn't know it was such a large number. Thankfully, there's also birth control. If women are too concerned about getting pregnant, I think the investment in birth control will save a lot more money and time than relying on the condom and getting pregnant.

I'm sure that the birth control pill isn't 100% effective either, but another high percentage is another high percentage in my book.

[ThePunkAlien]

Who am I to say? Well, if already you have the viewpoint of not wanting to give birth and choose to abort because you'd rather follow your own future and life, that's a sign of self-serving rather than self-sacrificing. To be a good parent, you need to be self-sacrificing.

I can't force a girl to do anything, nor do I intend to. But, I'll always speak my mind. I won't hold bars and I won't agree to things that I don't agree with.

Plus, as said, I'm going to find out what her opinion is on it for my own well being. If abortion, sorry but no dice. That's a loss I know I can definitely not deal with in my life.

[losing touch.]

I don't really see how the statistics surrounding how effective different types of birth control are, are relevent. it's quite irrelevent how the girl ended up getting pregnant, the choice for abortion should still be there.

[Jack]

Originally Posted by Josh

JACK:
In the right world, in my mind, people would take responsibilities for their actions and think more for their child than what is in their social best interest. I say social because I've already said in extreme cases, like birth defects or fatality - it would be perfectly understandable if not the best option.

However "in my mind" is hardly a compelling argument. I also hardly think you can claim that women have abortions solely stemming from their "social best interests", abortion is a hard choice for many people. It's generally due to many many factors not just "omg this baby will like totally mess up my social life."

Research and studies do show, as I have provided part of the research for below, that the unborn baby is in fact a living being. I was actually surprised by what I read and found out, I naturally used to think it was only a living breathing being after it came out - newer research is showing it starts much earlier than that.

Yes, however, the life does not begin at conception (pretty much every study agrees with that) at conception an embryo is no more a seperate living entity than my skin is. Also, many studies define "living being" in different ways, some define it when the heart begins to beat, others when the brain is capable of thought. I can't quite see any reasearch, only a link to a google book which I have no option to read.

Embryos are not human, they are not alive in the traditional sense of the word. It is generally agreed by experts that an embryo is incapable of even feeling pain until the 7th week of pregnancy. However, the fetal stage is more problematic but I see no issue with aborting an embryo. Stats show that the majority of abortions take place in the embryonic stage anyway (70% in England and Wales).

So would you agree that early term abortion is fine? That would be before any credble study would state it was alive.

Choosing to hold off on sex being a crime is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard, that's called being responsible and waiting until you are ready to bring a life into the world. If a life is brought into the world and one is not yet ready, in my mind, adoption is the best solution because it would not be terminating the life inside the womb - which research shows does exist.

Oh I quite agree, ridiculous. However, that is the logical end of the "potential life" argument which I have seen some attempt to put forward.

Not all weigh all the possible choices and consequences, some do but others don't, in a right world they would but - yet again - the way the world works isn't right.

Yes but removing abortion because some might not weigh all the possible consequences is like taking away the right to vote because people don't know enough about politics. I don't think a minorities idiocy should impact the rights of the majority, especially in regards to such a vital thing as abortion.

I'd also like to throw out from above that the rate or 15 women per hundred becomming pregnant despite condom use is due to incorrect/sloppy condom usage. When used properly condom failure rate is 2-3 out of 100.

[losing touch.]

Originally Posted by Josh

Who am I to say? Well, if already you have the viewpoint of not wanting to give birth and choose to abort because you'd rather follow your own future and life, that's a sign of self-serving rather than self-sacrificing. To be a good parent, you need to be self-sacrificing.

I can't force a girl to do anything, nor do I intend to. But, I'll always speak my mind. I won't hold bars and I won't agree to things that I don't agree with.

i don't know if you're using "you" as a general term or directing that towards me, if it's the latter then thats irrelevent because i'm not able to have children. it's all very well you not agreeing with her, but at the end of the day surely you can accept that the decision lies with her, not you. i know that the kid would be half made up of you, but that fact that it's inside her still remains.

[PhoenixAlive]

Originally Posted by xxEllexx

I don't really see how the statistics surrounding how effective different types of birth control are, are relevent. it's quite irrelevent how the girl ended up getting pregnant, the choice for abortion should still be there.

The stats were meant specifically for Brandon (just as an informative thing), not to be used as fuel for this debate. Sorry if I confused anyone.

[ThePunkAlien]

Jack, dude, you don't have facts. You have an opinion that is just as valid as everyone else - remember that. In my mind is the phrase I used because people are starting to claim I'm trying to force them to think a certain why while I'm also just stating my opinion. Stated it that way because you capitilized those words. Everything you just stated is in YOUR mind as everything I've stated is in mine.

Can't type all of the data out, but that's in the book - if you care to look it up on google books the manual way is "journey of the adopted self." Page thirty. I see it as life & the possibility of life and don't agree with it, but I can't force it nor do I have any intention of forcing anything as people have been accusing me of (I just talk strongly, thus I find that implication actually amusing) - it's just all my mind like it's all your mind and all their mind.

I never stated make it illegal.

Originally Posted by xxEllexx

it's all very well you not agreeing with her, but at the end of the day surely you can accept that the decision lies with her, not you. i know that the kid would be half made up of you, but that fact that it's inside her still remains.

As said, I can't force anyone to do anything. I can tell her how important it is to me and that it would be too painful for me to lose it in that way, that I couldn't possibly foresee a continuation in the relationship. Having a child is actually a REALLY important stepping stone in adoptee's life, it's their first real connection to the world. Makes an alien human. For some guys it would be shrugging it off, due to my origins and how they've shaped my life I can never cast it off that easily. I even think that's one of the reasons 'Superman Returns' really has an effect on me, because of the significance emotionally of having that birth connection - my child' be my whole world.

[Brandon]

I don't really see how the statistics surrounding how effective different types of birth control are, are relevent. it's quite irrelevent how the girl ended up getting pregnant, the choice for abortion should still be there.

I don't think it's irrelevant at all. I think there's a fine difference between taking pre-cautions and not taking pre-cautions. If you get pregnant after you've used a condom, I don't think that should technically be your fault...but the product itself. The product failed you, therefore it shouldn't be your fault that you got pregnant. Therefore, I believe that having an abortion is okay.

But if you don't use any sort of protection and you wind up getting pregnant, then I think that it's entirely your fault. Abortion...not okay.

[PhoenixAlive]

Originally Posted by Brandon

I don't think it's irrelevant at all. I think there's a fine difference between taking pre-cautions and not taking pre-cautions. If you get pregnant after you've used a condom, I don't think that should technically be your fault...but the product itself. The product failed you, therefore it shouldn't be your fault that you got pregnant. Therefore, I believe that having an abortion is okay.

But if you don't use any sort of protection and you wind up getting pregnant, then I think that it's entirely your fault. Abortion...not okay.

I'd have to disagree with you there. Just because a woman (or couple) takes precautions, why should abortion become a better option than adoption?

[losing touch.]

Originally Posted by Brandon

I don't think it's irrelevant at all. I think there's a fine difference between taking pre-cautions and not taking pre-cautions. If you get pregnant after you've used a condom, I don't think that should technically be your fault...but the product itself. The product failed you, therefore it shouldn't be your fault that you got pregnant. Therefore, I believe that having an abortion is okay.

But if you don't use any sort of protection and you wind up getting pregnant, then I think that it's entirely your fault. Abortion...not okay.

the line could easily become blurred as to whats "your fault" and whats not. i believe that abortion is an ok option no matter what the situation. it's very difficult to specify certain situations where it's ok and certain situations where it's not.

Originally Posted by PhoenixAlive

I'd have to disagree with you there. Just because a woman (or couple) takes precautions, why should abortion become a better option than adoption?

because they obviously feel that they either could not care for a child sufficiently or do not want a child. i think it's much kinder to abort a child in this situaton than to put it up for adoption. this would cause unecessary trauma for the woman and the child, which could be avoided by abortion.

[Brandon]

I'd have to disagree with you there. Just because a woman (or couple) takes precautions, why should abortion become a better option than adoption?

When a couple depends on some form of contraceptive to not get pregnant, and the woman winds up getting pregnant, I believe that it's the product's fault. A woman shouldn't have to suffer through pregnancy and hospital bills and so forth for something that she carefully planned not to happen. If you're doing the responsible thing, I don't think that you should have to suffer with all that pregnancy shit.

[Confused1isin]

I'm just jumping in and right back out of this, so any quotes will probablly not be answered.

I was adopted! I've known my whole life, and I can honestly say it has had a negitive impact on my life.

I do not view abortion as a way of birth control, but if someone wants an abortion for ANY reason I would rather them have it done by a professional then with a coat hanger or in a basement somewhere. My veiw is pro-safety, meaning if the mothers life is in danger (anywhere from being to young/small to carry to term, the mother might be harmed by family or kicked out, or she might take her own life), the fetus would not likely survive, or if the mother was raped or the child was a product of incest, I can understand getting an abortion. But if your foolish and think of abortion as a quick fix...then I have a problem.
But everyone has the right to their own views and thoughts and theres nothing I or anyone else can do to change them.

[ThePunkAlien]

because they obviously feel that they either could not care for a child sufficiently or do not want a child. i think it's much kinder to abort a child in this situaton than to put it up for adoption. this would cause unecessary trauma for the woman and the child, which could be avoided by abortion.

As someone who is by and far more connected to this than you are. I can tell you that abortion is not the better alternative. I'd much rather be alive than dead. Keep in mind that you just brought the CHILD into the equation - I'm that child, or rather one of the children from that scenario. Negatives? Yeah, but everyone has that. As much to want to rather be dead? No way.

[Brandon]

the line could easily become blurred as to whats "your fault" and whats not. i believe that abortion is an ok option no matter what the situation. it's very difficult to specify certain situations where it's ok and certain situations where it's not.

Not necessarily. I think it's common sense to determine what's "your fault" and what's "not your fault". It's the situations that could of been avoided that make it your fault. For example: Rape. You get raped, it's not your fault. Got drunk and had sex with a random guy? Your fault. Etc etc.

[DoesThisLookInfected?]

Originally Posted by Josh

As someone who is by and far more connected to this than you are. I can tell you that abortion is not the better alternative. I'd much rather be alive than dead.

Because you have an opinion, doesn't mean you should force it on others. Don't get an abortion if you feel like that.

Say abortion is illegal, what should the punishment be? The same as murder? How is it going to be found out if they have dangerous, illegal, back alley abortions?

[losing touch.]

Originally Posted by Josh

As someone who is by and far more connected to this than you are. I can tell you that abortion is not the better alternative. I'd much rather be alive than dead.

urr not really, this is about abortion not adoption, you weren't aborted.

you might much rather be alive than dead, but you don't speak for everyone so it's kind of irrelevent what your personal take on it is.

[ThePunkAlien]

Does, thanks for the comic relief - no one's saying make it illegal.

Originally Posted by xxEllexx

urr not really, this is about abortion not adoption, you weren't aborted.

you might much rather be alive than dead, but you don't speak for everyone so it's kind of irrelevent what your personal take on it is.

Correct me if I'm wrong about what you stated - being aborted is better than being adopted because of the trauma it can have on both the child and the mother. Unless I misread you:

I'd have to disagree with you there. Just because a woman (or couple) takes precautions, why should abortion become a better option than adoption?

because they obviously feel that they either could not care for a child sufficiently or do not want a child. i think it's much kinder to abort a child in this situaton than to put it up for adoption. this would cause unecessary trauma for the woman and the child, which could be avoided by abortion.

So yeah, if I read what you stated above right - then I do have a HUGE connection to this that you do not have. I am the child.

[DoesThisLookInfected?]

Originally Posted by Josh

Does, thanks for the comic relief - no one's saying make it illegal.

1. Can you please call me Cameron? It's really annoying...
2. So you don't believe it should be illegal? Why am I arguing with you then?

[ThePunkAlien]

Originally Posted by DoesThisLookInfected?

1. Can you please call me Cameron? It's really annoying...
2. So you don't believe it should be illegal? Why am I arguing with you then?

1. Because it's your username, didn't check for name area.
2. I have no idea man, I keep saying there's no need to make it illegal and you keep saying I do. It's a gray area, not black and white - thus legal issues really shouldn't crop up.

[Jack]

Originally Posted by Josh

Jack, dude, you don't have facts. You have an opinion that is just as valid as everyone else - remember that. In my mind is the phrase I used because people are starting to claim I'm trying to force them to think a certain why while I'm also just stating my opinion. Everything you just stated is in YOUR mind.

I'm afraid I do have facts considering this is a topic close to my heart.

-The JAMA (Journal of the American Medical Association) study on fetal pain (2005): HERE (comes to the conculsion that it is unlikely are unlikely to be capable of feeling pain until the third trimester.) This is peer reviewed.

these tests of cortical function suggest that conscious perception of pain does not begin before the third trimester.

Nothing I have stated is purely in my mind, it is generally nicely laid out in peer reviewed medical journals. Which is generally considered to be rather reliable. I say purely, because obviously it is in my mind or else I could not type it.

If you wish I'm sure I can provide evidence for everything I have said in mind-numbingly boring detail, but half the studies I would like to link to need a subscription to the medical journal to view and it'll take me ages to find other versions.

Can't type all of the search out, but what's in the book - if you care to look it up on google books the manual way is "journey of the adopted self." Page thirty. I see it as life & the possibility of life and don't agree with it, but I can't force it nor do I have any intention of forcing anything as people have been accusing me of (I just talk strongly, thus I find that implication actually amusing) - it's just all my mind like it's all your mind and all their mind.

That is not a scientific book and thus hardly counts as evidence by any stretch of the imagination.

I never stated make it illegal.

However, that is what you are implying. You are stating that it is "wrong", something that is "wrong" should not be allowed to continue as it would not be to the benefit of the state. However it is "right" due to preventing more harm than it causes. If you do not wish for it to be illegal or to legally restrict it to "last resort" cases then why argue about it if the law is as it should be?

[losing touch.]

Originally Posted by Josh

Does, thanks for the comic relief - no one's saying make it illegal.



Correct me if I'm wrong about what you stated - being aborted is better than being adopted because of the trauma it can have on both the child and the mother. Unless I misread you:



[/b]

So yeah, if I read what you stated above right - then I do have a HUGE connection to this that you do not have. I am the child.

no, you're not wrong - i do believe that in the circumstances i stated, abortion is a better option than adoption for a lot of people.

i'm not bringing personal connections or feelings into this i'm just debating the topic, although correct me if i'm wrong - but you don't know anything about me or my situation and life, so therfore can't make a statement like that.

[ThePunkAlien]

Jack, there are a lot more feelings and actions than pain. So, I still don't see anything other than one emotion - feeling pain. So, using that as an excuse, would you kill a man that's numb to all kind of pain to make your life better? That's as close an example as I can come up with, but pain's not everything.

The book has scientific studies in it that have been throughfully examined by developmentalists in the field, not the authors opinion. And those studies have shown up in NUMEROUS books. Thus, it IS valid no matter how much you want to deny it or there could be two opposite sides of the field and study, which can happen at times in studies.

As I said to - Cameron - there is no black and white, thus there isn't and should be no illegal or legality. It's a gray area which means under circumstances it can be for the best, while under others it can't be. Thus, it shouldn't be within the regulation of the state.

Originally Posted by xxEllexx

no, you're not wrong - i do believe that in the circumstances i stated, abortion is a better option than adoption for a lot of people.

i'm not bringing personal connections or feelings into this i'm just debating the topic, although correct me if i'm wrong - but you don't know anything about me or my situation and life, so therfore can't make a statement like that.

What situation? Unsafe sex and the mother not wanting it? You just described about every adoption there is, that's why the mother puts the child up for adoption. She's not able to care for it. No one plans on getting pregnant and putting the baby up for adoption.

Plus, if you were adopted - I have a feeling you would have stated so a long time ago like others have stated their connection to adoption. So that eliminates you from being the child and you're not a birth mother... so, really, I don't see what your second point is getting at when you used those two people: child and birth mother in your statement. You brought the CHILD into this. And I can tell you, even on my worst day, I wouldn't ask to be aborted or see that as the best choice for me the child.

[losing touch.]

Originally Posted by Josh

Jack, there are a lot more feelings and actions than pain. So, I still don't see anything other than one emotion - feeling pain. So, using that as an excuse, would you kill a man that's numb to all kind of pain to make your life better? That's as close an example as I can come up with, but pain's not everything.

The book has scientific studies in it that have been throughfully examined by developmentalists in the field, not the authors opinion. And those studies have shown up in NUMEROUS books. Thus, it IS valid no matter how much you want to deny it or there could be two opposite sides of the field and study, which can happen at times in studies.

As I said to - Cameron - there is no black and white, thus there isn't and should be no illegal or legality. It's a gray area which means under circumstances it can be for the best, while under others it can't be. Thus, it shouldn't be within the regulation of the state.



What situation? Unsafe sex and the mother not wanting it? You just described about every adoption there is, that's why the mother puts the child up for adoption.

Plus, if you were adopted - I have a feeling you would have stated so a long time ago. So that eliminates you from being the child and you're not a birth mother... so, really, I don't see what your second point is getting at when you used those two people: child and birth mother in your statement. You brought the CHILD into this.

what situation? any situation, as far as i'm concerned. i don't care how the child was conceived or what the mothers situation is, she should still have the right to abortion. you keep repeating yourself saying that the mother should just put the child up for adoption. well, i've stated many times in this thread already why the mother may not want to or feel able to do that. it's not as simple as "i'll just have it and get it adopted" it's a human life we're talking about.. so killing it at the stage where it's an embryo, before it turns into a human being is a sensible solution.

just because i'm not adopted myself and not a birth mother, it doesn't mean that i don't have any experience with adoption. this debate isn't about adoption anyway, and it seems you're bringing that up more than the actual topic at hand - abortion.

i can see how being in your situation as an adoptee [?] it would lead you to have these opinions. however, you can't just disregard others opinions because of your personal set of circumstances. in this debate the fact that you were adopted doesn't mean that your opinion has any more weight or significance than anyone else's to be quite honest.

[ThePunkAlien]

Originally Posted by xxEllexx

because they obviously feel that they either could not care for a child sufficiently or do not want a child. i think it's much kinder to abort a child in this situaton than to put it up for adoption. this would cause unecessary trauma for the woman and the child, which could be avoided by abortion.

Explain what you mean by this - YOU brought the child fully into it. In that statement, yes being an adoptee does have a huge connection to me and it's more personally tied to me and other adoptees than it is to you. Just clarify what exactly it is you're trying to say, you said it - not me.

The only situations I've seen brought up is the mother not wanting it for whatever reason and unsafe sex. Are you saying that in those cases you honestly believe the child would prefer to have been aborted? Would have been "kinder"? Because I can tell you, even on my worse days, that's far from it.

Here I'm not talking about the girl, I'm asking what you meant concerning the child.

[Jack]

Originally Posted by Josh

Jack, there are a lot more feelings and actions than pain. So, I still don't see anything other than one emotion - feeling pain. So, using that as an excuse, would you kill a man that's numb to all kind of pain to make your life better? That's as close an example as I can come up with, but pain's not everything.

Oh, I'm not saying it is. You're just not tackling my points, you're ignoring them. I put forward a statement and questions and you ignore both and state that "I don't know the facts" (which I do) and then when I show you that I do "know the facts" you throw up a strawman.

Embryo's are generally considered not to be self aware, capable of conciuous thought, capable of pain. This can be easily be checked if you learn about pre-natal development. Could you please present a reason why an embryo should be considered alive?

The book has scientific studies in it that have been throughfully examined by developmentalists in the field, not the authors opinion.

Not really, from what I just read it's highly opinionated, biased and one sided. It's really not scienitific. However, I don't see how I can prove that to you. It's not an objective book.

As I said to - Cameron - there is no black and white, thus there is and should be no legal or legality. It's a gray area which means under circumstances it can be for the best, while under others it can't be. Thus, it shouldn't be within the regulation of the state.

Who's regulation should it be under then? Maybe you could explain how it could possibly work without legal regulation by the state?

[ThePunkAlien]

1. No, I'm not ignoring them. What I'm saying is there are other studies as well that run contrary to that. Based on what I feel in my heart, by how far I've regressed at certain moments I hold the other study to be more valid.

2. The study wasn't operated by adoptees, it was used in a book about adoptees as to explain why we have PRIMAL feelings for a woman we've never even met. You're ignoring these studies.

Two studies, seemingly, have been conducted. Both have come to contradictory results. Who's to say which is right and which is wrong? Both studies show up in numerous places. All I know is that the one I've read countless times from a variety of sources rings true and can only explain why I feel the way I do. Simply put, you're choosing the study you hold to be true, I'm choosing the study I hold to be true.

3. It should be the people's choice, taking every information they have and making the best informed decision. Hopefully they make the one I consider right, they may not - it's not for me to force them, but I can openly judge anyone based on my own beliefs. I'm actually against the state in a lot of things, lol, including speed - USA should be like Germany in regards to that.

[Jack]

Originally Posted by Josh

1. No, I'm not ignoring them. What I'm saying is there are other studies as well that run contrary to that. Based on what I feel in my heart, by how far I've regressed at certain moments I hold the other study to be more valid.

Please be so kind as to point them out to me? I'm pretty sure that any credible study supports what I've said. Though until I've seen them I can't say, got to keep an open mind y'know.

2. The study wasn't operated by adoptees

I never said it was operated by adoptees. And which study?

it was used in a book about adoptees as to explain why we have PRIMAL feelings for a woman we've never even met. You're ignoring these studies.

What studies? And what possible relevance could studies pertaining to the feelings adopted children have towards their biological parents have on a debate about the morals, necessity and "wrongness" of abortion?

3. It should be the people's choice, taking every information they have and making the best informed decision. Hopefully they make the one I consider right, they may not - it's not for me to force them, but I can openly judge anyone based on my own beliefs.

So who's "choice" should it be if there is a disagreement about the abortion if there is no legal guidelines? What you have described is how abortion currently is more or less but with the legal guidelines which ensure that everyone DOES get a choice. To have a system of laissez-faire abortion seems at best irresponsible and at worst negligent on behalf of any government.

[losing touch.]

Originally Posted by Josh

[/b]

Explain what you mean by this - YOU brought the child fully into it. In that statement, yes being an adoptee does have a huge connection to me and it's more personally tied to me and other adoptees than it is to you. Just clarify what exactly it is you're trying to say, you said it - not me.

The only situations I've seen brought up is the mother not wanting it for whatever reason and unsafe sex. Are you saying that in those cases you honestly believe the child would prefer to have been aborted? Would have been "kinder"? Because I can tell you, even on my worse days, that's far from it.

Here I'm not talking about the girl, I'm asking what you meant concerning the child.

ok i'll try and explain myself a bit more clearly. the embryo is aborted before it has the chance to grow into a human being - therefore it cannot and will not have an opinion or any feelings about whether it wants to be alive or dead. so in this circumstance, the mothers welfare and opinion is the most important. the mother wants an abortion, the embryo is unaware of it - i think it's a good solution.

do i think the child would prefer to be aborted? no - not necessarily. but again you're missing the point here. you cannot take how you feel now into account when forming your opinion on this, because as i've already said, the embryo is killed before it turns into a human being. whether you want to be dead or alive now is irrelevent to this debate - because you weren't aborted.

my opinion is that the mothers needs and feelings are far more important than that of the embryo - partly for the fact that its extremely doubtful that embryos even have feelings, i'd argue that they don't.

as i've already said. it does not matter the mothers reasons for abortion, nor the circumstances surrounding the conception of the child - abortion is still an ok option in my opinion.

[ThePunkAlien]

Dude, it wasn't a study concerning how adoptees feel towards their birth parents. They were studies of how the unborn self responds to the mother's voice, bounces around to music, and all types of actions that signify that there is some kind of life going on.

[Jack]

Originally Posted by Josh

Dude, it wasn't a study concerning how adoptees feel towards their birth parents. They were studies of how the unborn self responds to the mother's voice, bounces around to music, and all types of actions that signify that there is some kind of life going on.

Yes, and perhaps you could enlighten me as to around what time in development that was?

Similarly I would point out that those things do not necessarily show concious thought.

Perhaps you could summarise your stance on abortion because at the moment it seems to be:

"we should leave the abortion rules as they are but I thoroughly disapprove of it and I would never want a partner of mine to have one."

If this is so then what is the big deal?

[ThePunkAlien]

Elle, just explain what you mean without bringing the girl into it by your comments that it would be:

> Kinder for the child to be aborted in some situations
> How trauma for the child from leaving it's birth mother would make the child rather die?

You stated these things, all I want is an explanation for why you think the child feels this way. Or if your original statement is not being read correctly, if so clarify what you mean by "kinder to abort the CHILD in this situation"

Originally Posted by Jack

"we should leave the abortion rules as they are but I thoroughly disapprove of it and I would never want a partner of mine to have one."

If this is so then what is the big deal?

I feel strongly about it, I put my opinion out there no bars held, I'm not trying to force someone to believe one way or another. But, if I somehow even convinced one person reading through this to put more thought into it I would have succeeded. Maybe not on everyone, but just one? That would be enough.

Plus, I always respond - so it's like I feel glued just replying... if that makes sense... I can't not reply, it's kinda an annoying trait. Want to get off, then another makes a reply - then another - then another - then another... it never ends... plus I really want to see the situation that one could ever possibly think abortion is "kinder" on the CHILD than adoption - as stated by Elle. Because the only one is serious birth defects, which wasn't brought up when that comment was made.

[losing touch.]

Originally Posted by Josh

Elle, just explain what you mean without bringing the girl into it by your comments that it would be:

> Kinder for the child to be aborted in some situations
> How trauma for the child from leaving it's birth mother would make the child rather die?

You stated these things, all I want is an explanation for why you think the child feels this way. Or if your original statement is not being read correctly, if so clarify what you mean by "kinder to abort the CHILD in this situation"

in some situations the mother is not ready to have a child or does not want a child. if the child is killed as an embryo and therfore obviously not born - it avoids the child having to suffer possible feelings of abandonment and basically not having a family. some people would argue that people who are adopted are the lucky ones - for every person like you there are others who are left in foster care or childrens homes. i know i for one would not want to spend my childhood in a childrens home or jumping from foster care to foster care.

as for your second point, i don't really know where you're coming from with that. as far as i can remember [and no i haven't read back through all my posts] i never said that trauma suffered by the child would make it want to die - although i suppose you raise a good point, in that this could be very possible. i did say that it could suffer long term emotional strain - i definitely believe this to be true. i wasn't adopted and therefore can only go on second hand info, from my friend. but i know that she suffers a lot still with feelings of abandonment and wonders why at times she wasn't just aborted.