Triggering: Abortion is wrong.

[WashoutThePain]

Originally Posted by Brandon

If the boy/girl grows up and later wishes he/she was dead in the first place, then that's fine. But let them find out for themselves instead of completely ruining their opportunity by having an abortion.

So, giving birth to a suicidal baby sounds okay to you? If I were the product of rape and knew that I stood for something my mother hated, I wouldn't want to be here anymore. Heck, having the baby could emotional devastate the mother who could in trun kill themselves. If she wants to get rid of the memories it's HER choice. The best way to move on from those types of experiences is to move away and make those events less significant in your life. If you have your rapists child, that is making the traumatizing event your entire life.

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As for feeling guilty about aborting a baby that was the product of rape.... I do not think there are many women who regret it. To the women, I doubt she feels like it is her child at all... What about the people who regret NOT getting the abortion. Thinking they COULD handle it, but instead took a turn for the worse. For people who lost their job during the ecomonic crisis and now have a baby on the way that they can't support....



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Personally, I think if you know you don't want the baby in it's early stages you might as well have an abortion. It shouldn't be used regulary, but if you realize you can't handle it, then the cells would be better off not forming into a child. If you want to do what is BEST for the baby, sometimes it would mean not having it at all.

[Algernon]

Originally Posted by Arbiter

I'm male, therefore I'm not entitled to make the final decision, and by that ruling, you aren't either, Josh. You have every right to declare your opinions, but ultimately, this is the mother's choice.

Rape, accidental pregnancy from failed birth control, and severe injuries or afflictions to mother and/or child are all valid reasons to get an abortion. And it's not like women take the decision lightly. I highly doubt there is any woman in the world who felt the decision to get an abortion was "easy".

Okay okay okay... Let's stop with this feminist view. There are two people in sex. So a mother has the only right when It comes to the child now? What kind of world do you all live in? This is wrong. Basically we're all getting pregnant, and once the deed is done, the father has lost all of his rights? It's half of him. And It's his offspring. Some of these children turn into men, good men, that may have an important role in society. My point is. If you're male, you have no right? That's BULL.

[WashoutThePain]

Oh and just to add, we are all humans and make mistakes. Sure, maybe it was irresponsible to have sex to begin with knowing you couldn't support a child, but hey, things happen and we have to deal with it.

[Algernon]

Originally Posted by lost-myself

Oh and just to add, we are all humans and make mistakes. Sure, maybe it was irresponsible to have sex to begin with knowing you couldn't support a child, but hey, things happen and we have to deal with it.

Really now? Then you shouldn't be having sex at all. Things happen and we have to deal with them? It is YOUR choice to be responsible during sex, and there is no excuse for that. You have the power to say no, put a condom on, get birth control, contraceptive foam... To all the people with this mindset. If you get pregnant, or an STD, It's your own fault.

[WashoutThePain]

Originally Posted by xHolyValorx

Really now? Then you shouldn't be having sex at all. Things happen and we have to deal with them? It is YOUR choice to be responsible during sex, and there is no excuse for that. You have the power to say no, put a condom on, get birth control, contraceptive foam... To all the people with this mindset. If you get pregnant, or an STD, It's your own fault.

What is the condom breaks? The pill doesn't work? The morning after pill is ineffective? I mean, things happen. And okay, maybe they just didn't use protection and got pregnant. I agree, that is irresponsilbe and they shouldn't be having sex.

[losing touch.]

Originally Posted by xHolyValorx

Okay okay okay... Let's stop with this feminist view. There are two people in sex. So a mother has the only right when It comes to the child now? What kind of world do you all live in? This is wrong. Basically we're all getting pregnant, and once the deed is done, the father has lost all of his rights? It's half of him. And It's his offspring. Some of these children turn into men, good men, that may have an important role in society. My point is. If you're male, you have no right? That's BULL.

I don't agree. Womans body, womans choice. the man can have his opinion but ultimately if the woman chooses to disregard what he's saying and have an abortion anyway then that's up to her. the man isn't the one who has the carry this kid for 9 months and face possible health problems, having the piss taken out of them, missing school and everything else that might go along with it. i'm thinking of this as if it were me, so a pregnant teenager.

[ThePunkAlien]

Originally Posted by lost-myself

If you want to do what is BEST for the baby, sometimes it would mean not having it at all.

I'm sorry but I simply don't see how this can be so. How can it be best for the baby to die than be placed for adoption where they have the opportunity of a better life with a family? That said, I'm betting if you went to an orphanage none there would want to have died either. They'd be at least happy that they're alive. I don't see how it can be "best" for the baby to die -

[WashoutThePain]

Originally Posted by Josh

I'm sorry but I simply don't see how this can be so. How can it be best for the baby to die than be placed for adoption where they have the opportunity of a better life with a family? That said, I'm betting if you went to an orphanage none there would want to have died either. I don't see how it can be "best" for the baby to die -

What about the children who get put into abusive foster homes? And there are a lot of unhappy people in orphanages. And I also do not consider a bunch of cells, a baby. So if you get an abortion really early on... it's virtually the same as the morning-after pills.

[ThePunkAlien]

As for "home life" - there's the same lottery I'd say everyone else plays. Would a child from an abusive home really want to die? Or would they want to move on with their life - same with those placed in orphanages for the majority of their life. I'm betting few of them would want to die.

Can't help that you said it though, that you think babies who's birth parents aren't ready are better off dead than alive. When you say that I want you to look at me and ask yourself if you really believe that abortion is the way to go, that babies who could grow up into me are better off dead. Because I'm basically representative of it - my father knocked up my mother, ran off, she was in poverty, couldn't provide for me and thus surrendered me. That's basically why I started the thread, I could be dead right now, kind of my way of trying to put a "face" to that line of thinking.

[WashoutThePain]

I am not saying that adoption is bad! I am saying there ARE instances when abortion is GOOD! You are also very lucky to have found a family that you seem to be happy with (I assume). I have a friend who is adopted and she HATES her family. They are not abusive, but she just doesn't connect with them. She also has tried many many times to find her real parents. She cuts herself over it and has been suicidal in the past. Okay, that is only one case, sure. But there are two sides to adoption, it's not always going to work out for the best. To be honest, my main point was about the rape.....

Personally, the only reason I would ever abort a child would be if it were due to rape. In any other case I would keep the child 100%. But I am saying that there are other people who want to abort, who's to say they can't?! If the parents do not want the child... its their choice.

[Katrina]

Hi guys.

To say the least, we all have somewhat different, very strong opinions on this topic. Please, keep debating. Debating is fine. Debating is great. In fact, that's what this forum is for. However, please do not do what some call "ad hominem" - against the man. If you're feeling passionate on something some said, debate the WORDS and the IDEA, not the person. Rudeness to other PEOPLE in this thread will not be tolerated. With that said, also please try not to undermine others' experiences. We're all different; we come from different walks of life and no one on here knows us - hell, sometimes we don't even truly no ourselves. So, let's try not to assume things about each other and really just stick with the mind frame that this potentially hits close to home with ANY of us, and we don't need to be making light of that.

With that said, I'll be marking this thread as triggering, removing a few comments that I find inappropriate [and that have been reported by a third party], and keeping a close eye on the thread.

Carry on.

[ThePunkAlien]

What I'm saying is that abortion should be looked at as a last resort. If it's needed, then do it. If it has potential of harming you, by all means. But, first consider all options and don't let the stigma of early pregnancy and what others might think or your future "scare" you into aborting. That line of thinking may outweigh considering everything before making the decision. Throwing away a baby, isn't and shouldn't be like throwing away a porno movie you don't want your parents to catch you with because they'll be angry. It's a lot more than that.

To the first point, as I said from the beginning, I'm not going to lie. You are scarred for life from it. It shapes part of who you are, you fail erickson's first stage of development trust/mistrust. I intend to try to find my birth parents, because I want some kind of closure in my life. I don't like being the mythic hero - it's not easy being Luke Skywalker, Superman, Hercules, etc. believe me. But, even with all that, don't want to be dead. Plus as for not feeling "connected" - that's a part of the whole trust/mistrust thing. You're kind of cast out as the mythic hero, everyone wonders what it would be like - but, for that person it's their life. It's not an easy one, it's not a hard one - it's just a life like everyone else. So yeah, the pain is real, it's something that impacts a lot of us - that is true, I've never denied that... but, no matter how much life sucks sometimes, I'd never want to be dead even on the worst days. Kinda just saying, that pain is actually common - but it's something people, somehow get through and deal with like anyone else deals with things in their life.

[Algernon]

Originally Posted by lost-myself

What is the condom breaks? The pill doesn't work? The morning after pill is ineffective? I mean, things happen. And okay, maybe they just didn't use protection and got pregnant. I agree, that is irresponsilbe and they shouldn't be having sex. But it HAPPENS.

Accidents happen, but taking responsibility is another situation entirely. Plan B is also available, and the chances of the condom breaking, and Plan B not working, are slim.

[WashoutThePain]

Okay, I really don't have anything further to debate about with you. I agree with what you are saying. But I just seem to have a more... lenient viewpoint.

[Algernon]

Originally Posted by xxEllexx

I don't agree. Womans body, womans choice. the man can have his opinion but ultimately if the woman chooses to disregard what he's saying and have an abortion anyway then that's up to her. the man isn't the one who has the carry this kid for 9 months and face possible health problems, having the piss taken out of them, missing school and everything else that might go along with it. i'm thinking of this as if it were me, so a pregnant teenager.

So If the dad wants to keep it, the mother has a right to kill his baby without his consent?

Wrong.

[WashoutThePain]

Originally Posted by xHolyValorx

Accidents happen, but taking responsibility is another situation entirely. Plan B is also available, and the chances of the condom breaking, and Plan B not working, are slim.

If the parents neglect to make the right decisions for their baby.... if the parents are incapable of making the right decisions, they should abort the child. My comment about the world being better off came from two things. One, if the family ends up on the streets because they have no more money to take care of everything, it is just causing more issues for everyone. Someone has to then take them in, provide for them, and sometimes there isn't anyone there to do that. And two, well, I just won't say the second.


I am not saying that abortion should be used all the time, but I think you have to be accepting of the fact that other people have different views.

[losing touch.]

Originally Posted by xHolyValorx

So If the dad wants to keep it, the mother has a right to kill his baby without his consent?

Wrong.

yes, you've got it in one. the mother can kill the baby because it's in HER body, not his.

& it's my opinion, it's not wrong. just because i don't agree with you it doesn't mean i'm wrong.

[PhoenixAlive]

Originally Posted by lost-myself
"What is the condom breaks? The pill doesn't work? The morning after pill is ineffective? I mean, things happen. And okay, maybe they just didn't use protection and got pregnant. I agree, that is irresponsilbe and they shouldn't be having sex. But it HAPPENS.

Can someone with this viewpoint please explain why it is better to abort "unwanted or unexpected" babies rather than giving them up for adoption?

[ThePunkAlien]

That's why I intend to ask any girl I may have sex with what her opinion is on abortion. It may be pleasurable, but I'd never do it if she believes in it unless there's a chance of fatality or if my child may be born with serious birth defects.

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[PhoenixAlive]

Originally Posted by PhoenixAlive

I don't understand. What are these mental and physical effects which would make it implausible for a woman to give 9 months in order for her baby to live, and then give the baby up for adoption? (I mean, I've been through a rough unplanned pregnancy, but is not wanting some pain and discomfort and dealing with some not-so-supportive people enough justification to not give a baby a chance at life with parents who do have the resources to take care of him or her?)

I recently posted this. Can someone please give me an answer?

[losing touch.]

Originally Posted by PhoenixAlive

Originally Posted by lost-myself
"What is the condom breaks? The pill doesn't work? The morning after pill is ineffective? I mean, things happen. And okay, maybe they just didn't use protection and got pregnant. I agree, that is irresponsilbe and they shouldn't be having sex. But it HAPPENS.

Can someone with this viewpoint please explain why it is better to abort "unwanted or unexpected" babies rather than giving them up for adoption?

for a few reasons. some people can't risk pregnancy for medical reasons. some people are too young and their bodies not ready to deal with pregnancy. some people don't want their lives disrupted to a point where it could jeapordise their chances of doing well with education/getting a career. it's not as easy as "oh yeah just have the kid and give it up for adoption." because a) as i've already said, some people can't or don't want to go through a pregnancy and b) some people might think that they'll change their mind after giving birth to the child, and they know they can't support it.

going through a pregnancy puts a huge strain on someone mentally and physically, why is it wrong to not want to put yourself through this for a kid that you don't want in the first place?

[Brandon]

So, giving birth to a suicidal baby sounds okay to you? If I were the product of rape and knew that I stood for something my mother hated, I wouldn't want to be here anymore. Heck, having the baby could emotional devastate the mother who could in trun kill themselves. If she wants to get rid of the memories it's HER choice. The best way to move on from those types of experiences is to move away and make those events less significant in your life. If you have your rapists child, that is making the traumatizing event your entire life.

What I'm saying is that you don't have to kill a potential baby to get it out of your life. That's what adoption agencies are for. You don't want the baby? They'll take em'. The kid won't grow up with his/her real parents, but that doesn't mean he/she is going to be suicidal in the future. It's possible that he/she won't even know that they were adopted till later on in life! By that time, they'll just be going around saying "I never knew my real mother", and have this assumption that his/her mother just didn't want him/her and gave him/her up for adoption!

I think you're going to remember the pregnancy and the rape regardless. They both have an impact on a woman (and possibly man's) life. The only thing different between putting the kid up for adoption and aborting the baby is life or death. Suicide isn't something you can't avoid -- it's a choice. If a kid is going to grow up and commit suicide just because it's adopted and he/she doesn't know her real mother, then I think that's a pretty sad excuse to commit suicide. If he/she was adopted from parents that were abusive and such, then I could slightly understand.

[ThePunkAlien]

The whole "career" excuse bothers me alot and actually shows me men can be a lot better fathers than women can be mothers....

I mean, if I ever got a girl pregnant - I'd throw my life away in an instant for my child, no second thoughts. And my life right now, as said before, is seriously going someplace and I have the connections to make it big. I'd still throw it all away though.

Plus for those worried about career- how would career and education get impacted? Give birth, then surrender for adoption. It has no impact on career for those who are worried about that. It just calls for some personal strength.

[losing touch.]

Originally Posted by Brandon

What I'm saying is that you don't have to kill a potential baby to get it out of your life. That's what adoption agencies are for. You don't want the baby? They'll take em'. The kid won't grow up with his/her real parents, but that doesn't mean he/she is going to be suicidal in the future. It's possible that he/she won't even know that they were adopted till later on in life! By that time, they'll just be going around saying "I never knew my real mother", and have this assumption that his/her mother just didn't want him/her and gave him/her up for adoption!

I think you're going to remember the pregnancy and the rape regardless. They both have an impact on a woman (and possibly man's) life. The only thing different between putting the kid up for adoption and aborting the baby is life or death. Suicide isn't something you can't avoid -- it's a choice. If a kid is going to grow up and commit suicide just because it's adopted and he/she doesn't know her real mother, then I think that's a pretty sad excuse to commit suicide. If he/she was adopted from parents that were abusive and such, then I could slightly understand.

i've already said this, but i'll say it again.. i'm not against the idea of giving a kid up for adoption. however, some people don't want to go through the strain of a pregnancy for a kid that they don't want. i don't see anything wrong with that.

[PhoenixAlive]

Originally Posted by xxEllexx

for a few reasons. some people can't risk pregnancy for medical reasons. some people are too young and their bodies not ready to deal with pregnancy. some people don't want their lives disrupted to a point where it could jeapordise their chances of doing well with education/getting a career. it's not as easy as "oh yeah just have the kid and give it up for adoption." because a) as i've already said, some people can't or don't want to go through a pregnancy and b) some people might think that they'll change their mind after giving birth to the child, and they know they can't support it.

going through a pregnancy puts a huge strain on someone mentally and physically, why is it wrong to not want to put yourself through this for a kid that you don't want in the first place?

I do condone abortion in the case of severe medical risk to the mother. However, in the other cases you mentioned, it does not matter whether or not a woman WANTS this child, or whether it will disrupt her life. 9 months of disruption and pain is not a long time in the grand scheme of things.

[losing touch.]

Originally Posted by PhoenixAlive

I do condone abortion in the case of severe medical risk to the mother. However, in the other cases you mentioned, it does not matter whether or not a woman WANTS this child, or whether it will disrupt her life. 9 months is not a long time in the grand scheme of things.

I disagree, for a lot of people 9 months is a long time, too long. & the time isn't the only issue here. you say it doesn't matter what the woman wants, i also disagree with that. i'd say that what the woman wants is the most important of all the opinions. it's the lesser of two evils aborting a kid that you don't want. my friend recently had a child and the abuse she suffered because of it was horrendous. i know i for one wouldn't put myself through that.. for a child that i didn't want and couldn't look after.

[PhoenixAlive]

So put the kid up for adoption! If a woman gets pregnant (and if there aren't huge extenuating circumstances ex- rape, serious medical risk) she has a responsibility to allow the life she created to fulfill itself. Just because she can't take care of the baby doesn't mean that she can't do the responsible thing and put the child up for adoption. TO THE BABY THIS IS A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN LIFE AND DEATH! And unless there are huge medical problems, pregnancy is really not that big of a deal. Sure its not fun. I know from personal experience that it can get very unpleasant, but its not bad enough to justify taking a life away just because its inconvenient.

[Pelios]

It is murder. I agree with you, Josh. Even if you are raped, it is a crime on that woman, and the person who rapes her shall pay the price, but she should not commit another crime, called murder. Why should the baby have to pay for the actions of the others?

[losing touch.]

Originally Posted by PhoenixAlive

So put the kid up for adoption! If a woman gets pregnant (and if there aren't huge extenuating circumstances ex- rape, serious medical risk) she has a responsibility to allow the life she created to fulfill itself.

says who? that might be your opinion, but if she doesn't feel that it's her responsibility to do that then it's no one elses business.

Originally Posted by PhoenixAlive

Just because she can't take care of the baby doesn't mean that she can't do the responsible thing and put the child up for adoption. TO THE BABY THIS IS A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN LIFE AND DEATH!

hmm well the way i see it, so long as the baby is aborted early on in the pregnancy it's not a baby, it's only a bunch of cells.. so you're killing a bunch of cells, not a person. and as for the adoption thing, i've already said.. i'm not against adoption! what i am against is a woman being forced to go through a pregnancy that she doesn't want.

Originally Posted by PhoenixAlive

And unless there are huge medical problems, pregnancy is really not that big of a deal. Sure its not fun. I know from personal experience that it can get very unpleasant, but its not bad enough to justify taking a life away just because its inconvenient.

i disagree. "pregnancy is really not that big of a deal." - i don't see how you can say that. it's a completely life changing experience from which you have a child.. and some people may not be able to contemplate the thought of adoption, yet they can't look after the baby themselves, hence abortion is the best option for all parties.

[PhoenixAlive]

Originally Posted by xxEllexx

i disagree. "pregnancy is really not that big of a deal." - i don't see how you can say that. it's a completely life changing experience from which you have a child.. and some people may not be able to contemplate the thought of adoption, yet they can't look after the baby themselves, hence abortion is the best option for all parties.

The BEST option for all parties? And if it came down to the difficult decision of giving the baby up for adoption after you realize that you can't support him or her, I know how hard this decision is to make, but that then becomes the mother's responsibility also. To do what is best for this baby and put him or her up for adoption. It might be harsh, but I think that destroying the opportunity for life just to keep from having to make a tough decision down the road is selfish and immature.

[losing touch.]

Originally Posted by PhoenixAlive

The BEST option for all parties? And if it came down to the difficult decision of giving the baby up for adoption after you realize that you can't support him or her, I know how hard this decision is to make, but that then becomes the mother's responsibility also. To do what is best for this baby and put him or her up for adoption.

yes, it's the best for all parties. without sounding heartless, this baby is most likely killed before it even realises that it's alive. it allows the mother to move on with their life without having to go through an unwanted pregnancy and potentially emotional strain for the rest of her life. i can't imagine giving a kid up for adoption is an easy decision, so why not just eliminate that decision by choosing abortion? i'm not pro-abortion i'm pro-choice.. i'm not saying "oh everyone should just kill their kids" all i'm saying is, the mother should have the decision as to what she does with whats growing inside her body.

[Brandon]

i've already said this, but i'll say it again.. i'm not against the idea of giving a kid up for adoption. however, some people don't want to go through the strain of a pregnancy for a kid that they don't want. i don't see anything wrong with that.

So you're saying that women should be allowed to have an abortion just because they don't want to go through pregnancy? If you don't want to go through pregnancy, use protection. "But what if the condom breaks and etc", then I suppose an abortion is okay. But if you use protection, you're more than likely not to get pregnant...

[PhoenixAlive]

It might be harsh, but I think that destroying the opportunity for life just to keep from having to make a tough decision down the road is selfish and immature.

[losing touch.]

Originally Posted by Brandon

So you're saying that women should be allowed to have an abortion just because they don't want to go through pregnancy? If you don't want to go through pregnancy, use protection. "But what if the condom breaks and etc", then I suppose an abortion is okay. But if you use protection, you're more than likely not to get pregnant...

yes, that's what i'm saying. exactly, if you use protection you're not likely to be in this situation, and personally i'll never be in this situation.. but i'm talking about the minority, those times where protection lets you down and you get pregnant, or you don't use protection at all and regret it.

It might be harsh, but I think that destroying the opportunity for life just to keep from having to make a tough decision down the road is selfish and immature.

i agree that it's probably a bit selfish and immature, but that's the point.. the person in this situation is most likely immature, and therefore probably not ready for pregnancy or a baby. just because it's slightly selfish and arguably immature, that doesn't make it wrong. we're surrounded by selfishness in this world, it's unfortunate yes, but that's life.

[PhoenixAlive]

Originally Posted by Brandon

So you're saying that women should be allowed to have an abortion just because they don't want to go through pregnancy? If you don't want to go through pregnancy, use protection. "But what if the condom breaks and etc", then I suppose an abortion is okay. But if you use protection, you're more than likely not to get pregnant...

Although I've agreed on all of your other statements, "if you use protection, you're more than likely not to get pregnant" is inaccurate. You would be surprised how many babies are born to those who used condoms especially. They are not as fool-proof as is put out there. From personal experience I can tell you that ermm... malfunctions definitely do happen.

[Exelus]

DAMN this is a huge thread! I knew that the whole abortion thing would get people talking, but WOW.

For the record, Josh, you've actually changed my stance on this slightly. I'm now less pro-choice from hearing your argument. And really I think that everyone else here is forgetting the original premise of your post. Everyone keeps coming up with all these "scenarios" that somehow prove you wrong, but they fail to realize that you're offering an alternative. The only case where abortion is preferable to adoption is where one or both parties will be mortally harmed in the birth of the baby. Physical defects, birth complications, whatever.

The whole rape thing I'm not sure about. Yeah, I'm sure it would be emotionally damaging to carry a child for 9 months. But you can always put him up for adoption later, and viola, you SAVED A LIFE. However, I do understand that this may not be the case, and asking a girl to carry that physical, emotional, and mental weight around for 9 months isn't something to take lightly.

I still think this comes down to whether we consider the embryo to be a child, or to have potential to become a child. If the embryo is seen as a child, then abortion is bad in virtually every respect. In that case, Abortion = Murder. But if the embryo is only seen as having the POTENTIAL to become a child, then abortion isn't so bad, and it's easy to see why so many people are pro choice.

And I don't really have an opinion on what an embryo is. I know science says it's just an embryo and not a child during the first trimester, but the more you think about it, the more you begin to ask WHAT your definition of a living being is.

[Casey.]

Originally Posted by Josh

Still another side of the coin, would you eliminate a life growing inside you just because it was a painful experience of what happened to you? Believe me, that I can sympathsize with - but, again, why is abortion a necessity over simply giving the child up for adoption?

I'm not saying that those who get pregnant have to raise the child, it would probably be painful for many in that scenario - a constant reminder. I can understand that. What I can't seem to grasp is why anyone would choose abortion over adoption.

Rape is a very painful thing. And if you happen to get pregnant, it is so much worse.Because you are carrying a part of him in you. And the daily reminders would be too painful to bear.

Originally Posted by Josh

I still don't see how rape could constitute to someone taking a life and thinking it's right. I'd actually believe, psychologically she'd be worse off...
f

But a woman might not see it as that. She has this thing growing inside of her, this thing that will be a constant reminder of him. She has to live with it feeding off her body for months.

I know that if I was raped, I would have an abortion.If you force a woman to keep the baby the came from rape, or even to just have it, well you will destroy her. If I was forced to have the product of rape, I would more than likely kill myself, just so I didn't have his child.

Originally Posted by xHolyValorx

I think getting raped as a man would hurt far more than a woman. Depending on the preference you are raped as.

Right. Rape is equally painful no matter whether you are male or female.

DOES:

I have never spoken one word against rape victims. I have never called them weak. Only that I believe it would be more psychologically draining for them to abort than to give the child up for adoption. I'd say the rape would stick with her, but you add that on top of the possible guilt she may feel after the abortion? I seriously think it would haunt her a lot more for the rest of her life.

I take it you have never been raped. I, myself, have not, I have friends who have been raped. If you get pregnant from rape, it's not your fault, you shouldn't have to have the baby. Because, while some may feel guilt for aborting the product of rap, many will not. They would be getting that piece of him out of them.

Originally Posted by xHolyValorx

Okay okay okay... Let's stop with this feminist view. There are two people in sex. So a mother has the only right when It comes to the child now? What kind of world do you all live in? This is wrong. Basically we're all getting pregnant, and once the deed is done, the father has lost all of his rights? It's half of him. And It's his offspring. Some of these children turn into men, good men, that may have an important role in society. My point is. If you're male, you have no right? That's BULL.

Yes, but a woman carries the baby. Some fathers don't care at all, but might be against you aborting their baby, even if they aren't there, so no they have no say. It's a woman's body. It will always be here body. If she wants to share it for nine months or not, that is up to her.

A baby should never be a consequence. A baby should never be a punishment. It should be a blessing, it should be wanted. If it's not wanted, then they shouldn't have the baby.

[PhoenixAlive]

Originally Posted by PhoenixAlive

Although I've agreed on all of your other statements, "if you use protection, you're more than likely not to get pregnant" is inaccurate. You would be surprised how many babies are born to those who used condoms especially. They are not as fool-proof as is put out there. From personal experience I can tell you that ermm... malfunctions definitely do happen.

Just thought I'd add some statistical fact to my statement. Generally, 15 of every 100 couples who use condoms will become pregnant. Considering how many people use condoms, thinking that they are a reliable means of protection, that's a pretty high number. Here's where I got my info if you're interested.

http://contraception.about.com/od/ov...ices/p/OTC.htm

[ThePunkAlien]

Originally Posted by Josh

LIFE OF THE UNBORN...

LINK:
"The Prenatal Self"

Turn to page thirty to find out what'd you'd be aborting, frankly it'll probably shock you to find how much actually goes on in there. I know I didn't even expect what I read. I too, for a long time, until I started regressing and read about this research thought that the baby was only finally alive once it came out of the Mom. But, research is now showing that it starts long before that. It's something that anyone even remotely considering an abortion should read.

Check this out to find how real the "unborn baby" actually is.

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If anything, I've found out from replies how important it is asking a girl what she thinks about abortion prior to having sex with her is. The whole "men have no rights" thing is really disturbing me that some think the father should have no say at all. So for those saying that, thanks for showing me how sexist some girls can be and that I have to know her beliefs prior to anything. Also it's true some men make better fathers than women can ever make mothers; because I already know I'd sacrifice my life for my child and will never become my birth father. Some guys feel just as passionately if not, sometimes as shown in this thread, more so than girls do about parenthood and the responsibilities that entails.

[Jack]

I think the point that a lot of you are missing is that you can say "oh abortion is murder because of such and such reasons" however what is the alternative? Are you advocating that we make abortion illegal except in cases where the mother's life is in danger? Because if so you must consider that a hell of a lot of people do not see it that way and if, somehow, abortion became illegal many people would resort to back-alley dangerous procedures instead of carrying a baby through to birth.

Similarly, from the small amount of this thread I've read ( I admit I've not read it all), you all seem to be putting forward that abortion is murder because an embryo has the potential to become a fully formed human being. However why should we place a potential human's rights before an actual, non-abstract human? The potentiality arguement also falls down when you consider that contraception prevents a potential life from forming, if abortion is murder then condoms most certainly are too. With that view even abstinence would be moraly suspect as you're preventing a potential human being being born each month by not frantically trying to concieve, you become as morally abhorent as the person who walks past a drowning child without trying to help.

Also, I'm not quite sure how you could justify a male having a say in a woman having an abortion. Of course, it sounds perfectly fine and dandy in theory but how would it work in practice? Who's view would take precedence? Similarly why should a man be able to effectively use a woman as nothing more than a 9 month incubator against her wishes? Maybe if someone could present a logical explanation of how it would actually work without room for abuse by males (which happened before women were allowed to control abortion so I assume it would happen again) then I would be more friendly to the idea. The only logical solution is, instead, to allow the man to fiscally abort the child from his life if he does not wish to have it and the women does, if it the man who wants to keep the child: Then tough. Adopt a kid, there are plenty in the adoption system as it is.

Similarly placing a kid into adoption isn't so nice and peachy as a lot of you make it out to be. The cost of giving birth alone can be rather high and the stress it places on a womans body is not something to just be ignored. While of course there are harmful side effects to abortion (guilt etc etc) those are the risks people take when having one, if they are having one then it is obvious that the serious consequences of having the baby outweigh the serious consequences of aborting it otherwise they would not be doing it. There are also a lot of kids who are not adopted from that system.

Also, can people stop referring to it as "murder" because according to the definition of murder it's not.