Triggering: Abortion is wrong.

[Khadra]

For all the pro-choicers, does late term abortion change your stance? If not, do you believe late term abortions are always okay or only under certain conditions?

Definitions vary depending on where they're coming from, so for this thread let's say late term is after the 20th week of gestation.

Keep in mind nearly all pregnancies are viable after the 27th week, and no pregnancies are viable before the 21st week.

United States: In 2003, from data collected in those areas that sufficiently reported gestational age, it was found that 6.2% of abortions were conducted from 13 to 15 weeks, 4.2% from 16 to 20 weeks, and 1.4% at or after 21 weeks.[13] Because the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention's annual study on abortion statistics does not calculate the exact gestational age for abortions performed past the 20th week, there are no precise data for the number of abortions performed after viability.[13] In 1997, the Guttmacher Institute estimated the number of abortions in the U.S. past 24 weeks to be 0.08%, or approximately 1,032 per year.[14]

Taken from wikipedia:
These 420 women were asked to choose among a list of reasons they had not obtained the abortions earlier in their pregnancies. The results were as follows:[3]
71% Woman didn't recognize she was pregnant or misjudged gestation 48% Woman found it hard to make arrangements for abortion
33% Woman was afraid to tell her partner or parents
24% Woman took time to decide to have an abortion
8% Woman waited for her relationship to change
8% Someone pressured woman not to have abortion
6% Something changed after woman became pregnant
6% Woman didn't know timing is important
5% Woman didn't know she could get an abortion
2% A fetal problem was diagnosed late in pregnancy
11% Other


As of 1998, among the 152 most populous countries, 54 either banned abortion entirely or permitted it only to save the life of the pregnant woman


There is more information and statistics on wikipedia if you want to look. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late-term_abortion


EDIT: Can anyone explain what exactly happens to the fetus/baby during a late term abortion? I can't seem to find anything with much detail but this biased website. I don't know how accurate it is, but if it is accurate it's extremely sad and disgusting (in my opinion). http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/new.php?n=14203

[Pelios]

Originally Posted by Khadra

EDIT: Can anyone explain what exactly happens to the fetus/baby during a late term abortion?

Procedures are designed to minimize cost rather than respect the baby in any way or minimize its pain...that's an objective fact not a subjective one. The most grotesque method involves pulling the baby's entire body out, except the head, and then putting a deep needle cut into the skull and literally sucking out the brains. Probably the least grotesque involves a quick death via poisoning rather like the "death by injection" used by prisons.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_W75zh1j2I

[Khadra]

Originally Posted by mexico

Procedures are designed to minimize cost rather than respect the baby in any way or minimize its pain...that's an objective fact not a subjective one. The most grotesque method involves pulling the baby's entire body out, except the head, and then putting a deep needle cut into the skull and literally sucking out the brains. Probably the least grotesque involves a quick death via poisoning rather like the "death by injection" used by prisons.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_W75zh1j2I

Thanks for finding that information!

I can't believe that's still legal for anything other when the mother's life is in danger. And even then they should still try all the can to save the fetus/baby. I'm pro-choice for early term abortion but I just can't see how this is okay. Some of those babies could have lived if they had medical help! How is that not murder?

[Blackwing]

What about medical Reasons for the mother? She dies well so does the baby.

[sushi_error]

Originally Posted by EDGE

What about medical Reasons for the mother? She dies well so does the baby.

It depends on the situation. In almost all cases where a mother's life is at risk, doctors will try to save her life first.

[Elf]

If it's a situation where the mother's life is at risk, or where the problem was diagnosed that late in the pregnancy, I think a woman should be allowed to go through with it.

However, outside of those circumstances, I think abortions should only be legalized up until the fetus is viable.

[Magic.]

Over here abortion is legal up until 24 weeks, and after that two doctors must agree to abort a child if her life is in danger or that the child is likely to be born with severe mental/physical disabilities [in the second case the mother must be deemed unfit to make the decision herself].
I do think that if a womans health/life are endangered by her pregnancy doctors should be allowed to abort the child after 24 weeks. Also I would think that in a case involving rape, late term abortion may also be acceptable, if the mother is having psychological problems and does not want to have the child - if giving birth would cause her psychological harm.

[PhoenixAlive]

After the baby is viable, couldn't they just induce labor or perform a c-section to get the baby out without killing him or her?

[ThePunkAlien]

Abortion's wrong. Clear and simple. Yesterday I spotted a thread at the pregnancy forum that really disturbed me - about someone getting or considering getting an abortion.

You chose to have sex. You have to deal with the consequences. Your parents find out? Big deal. The "pregnancy pain" worries you? Big deal. You didn't have to have sex. But, you did - you have a life growing inside you now and you have to follow it through.

Embryo stage of life DOES exist. I can testify to this and so can numerous other adoptees, who's only memory of our mothers exist in that stage of life. I can't explain what happens, why it happens, only that I know it does and research has proven that this is the case. You're killing life.

Abortion's only right under one condition - such as a couple who keep trying to have a child only to lead to children being born with severe birth defects. Or if medically it's able to predict if the child will be born with any painful defects. If you're responsible enough to have sex, from that point onwards you have to grow up. Being responsible is not getting an abortion out of fear of giving birth, your parents finding out, or what your classmates may think - that's immature. Being responsible is doing what's best for the baby.

And as for how old you are - ever hear of adoption? You don't need to raise it, just don't kill it. It's not that hard, why anyone would choose abortion above adoption as a solution beyond selfish reasons is way beyond me unless there's chance of pain for the child.

I know this post is highly accusatory, but it really disturbed me and I felt I couldn't let this go without saying something about it.

[thebigmole]

Wow, just wow. You see people this is why guys need to keep their mouths shut when it comes to this topic. Well not completely, I mean it is half their child so they can certainly voice their opinion, but a simple yes or no will do no more.

"Pregnancy pain" and you put it in quotes, that's the very moment I stopped really caring about what you posted. Yes the girl did choose to have sex but she certainly didn't do it by herself. That's what really gets me, and it's why I don't like guys who are pro-life to the point where they think that they should actually have a say in what a woman should do with her body, like they could possibly understand the physical and emotional pain of pregnancy, which you have already proven you cannot. You see the guy can say, oh sure I'll help you raise this baby. But they've got 9 months to change their mind and disapear and then the woman is stuck by herself, with thousands of dollars in medical bills, and a child she probably can't care for.

You sound like one of those people who think that a child should be a consequence, or a punishment. You had sex bad girl, here potentially ruin your life and have a child before you're ready. I just don't think you truly understand the situation.

[ThePunkAlien]

I never had sex. I'm responsible. I choose this because I know that it is a responsibility. Hearing about one night stands sickens me. I was born from a mistake, but rather than my Mom being selfish and getting an abortion - she choose to follow through and put me up for adoption because she wasn't ready for raising a child. She was brave... but others I see who just care about their parents, peers and nine months of pain out of something they chose to do - no, I don't have any sympathy towards them...

Maybe it's being born out of an unplanned pregnancy that gives me this perspective. Knowing that those who opt for abortion rather than following things through to the end and giving the baby up for adoption are weak. How do I know embryos have life? I regressed to the point that I remembered exactly what it felt like to be growing inside her and given away - I remembered. Which isn't something that should seemingly be possible unless embryos and really early babyhood do have life.

So you're opinion of me on the outset is wrong. I'm a responsible guy born from an unplanned pregnancy, from a woman who remained strong and chose adoption over abortion - and believe me, she couldn't keep me because she was poor. Money's got nothing to do with it in my mind, let me repeat - my birth mom was poor. The moment and first time I have sex, I know what could come as a result - which is why I've been holding out on it - and if it ever does happen, I'd stay by her side through the whole thing and then as a couple make the decision of adoption or raising it on our own if we could provide it with a good life. I wouldn't kill my son.

[Blackwing]

It's a choice that needs to be respected. you may not agree with the reason they want a abortion but its not your body.

[Melody Pond]

Originally Posted by Josh

You chose to have sex.

What about rape?

[ThePunkAlien]

Originally Posted by Razzmatazz Rach

What about rape?

Still another side of the coin, would you eliminate a life growing inside you just because it was a painful experience of what happened to you? Believe me, that I can sympathsize with - but, again, why is abortion a necessity over simply giving the child up for adoption?

I'm not saying that those who get pregnant have to raise the child, it would probably be painful for many in that scenario - a constant reminder. I can understand that. What I can't seem to grasp is why anyone would choose abortion over adoption.

Have to stress again, I'm a guy that was born from an unplanned pregnancy from a woman who couldn't keep me because she was poor and my father had run off, so she couldn't provide the life she wanted for me. I'm the opposite side of the coin from abortion, so I guess that's why this is a really intense subject for me. I know what can happen from sex, I'm the evidence of it, it's shaped my life - due to that, being born out of a mistake, I'm responsible in how I live my life. Adoption always over abortion unless there's possibility of pain for the child, always. And if - when the time comes - we decide to keep it, then I am willing and ready to sacrifice everything in my life for my son.

[thebigmole]

Originally Posted by Josh

Still another side of the coin, would you eliminate a life growing inside you just because it was a painful experience of what happened to you? Believe me, that I can sympathsize with - but, again, why is abortion a necessity over simply giving the child up for adoption?

I'm not saying that those who get pregnant have to raise the child, it would probably be painful for many in that scenario - a constant reminder. I can understand that. What I can't seem to grasp is why anyone would choose abortion over adoption.

Have to stress again, I'm a guy that was born from an unplanned pregnancy from a woman who couldn't keep me because she was poor and my father had run off, so she couldn't provide the life she wanted for me. I'm the opposite side of the coin from abortion, so I guess that's why this is a really intense subject for me. I know what can happen from sex, I'm the evidence of it, it's shaped my life - due to that, being born out of a mistake, I'm responsible in how I live my life. Adoption always over abortion unless there's possibility of pain for the child, always.

Well I will explain it to you.
1. It is not safe for young girls to go through with pregnancies, they can have complications, they can be kicked out of their house and left with no support, and the fathers rarely stick around.
2. Do you know how much it costs to have a child? Some how I don't think so since you seem to just write it off.
3. Physical and emotional pain. On the emotional side, it is VERY hard for a woman to give up a child and I applaude the women who are able to do it. However some people might not have that strenght and they may intend to give the child up and may end up keeping said child when they really can't take care of it, that is not good for the child.

Having an abortion is taking responsibility. For the women who do it it's the right decision for them. And it's their decision. Abortion is NOT an easy way out, it is a very hard thing for them to do, ask any woman who's had one.

As for your "proof". Let's say I believe you when you say you remember being in the womb. Do you happened to know exactly how far along you were. Because you may very well remember, however that brain activity probably didn't start until after the time when the majority of abortions are carried out. So it's not really proof of anything.

[Gingerbread Latte]

Originally Posted by Josh

Abortion's wrong. Clear and simple. Yesterday I spotted a thread at the pregnancy forum that really disturbed me - about someone getting or considering getting an abortion.

You chose to have sex. You have to deal with the consequences. Your parents find out? Big deal. The "pregnancy pain" worries you? Big deal. You didn't have to have sex. But, you did - you have a life growing inside you now and you have to follow it through.

Embryo stage of life DOES exist. I can testify to this and so can numerous other adoptees, who's only memory of our mothers exist in that stage of life. I can't explain what happens, why it happens, only that I know it does and research has proven that this is the case. You're killing life.

Abortion's only right under one condition - such as a couple who keep trying to have a child only to lead to children being born with severe birth defects. Or if medically it's able to predict if the child will be born with any painful defects. If you're responsible enough to have sex, from that point onwards you have to grow up. Being responsible is not getting an abortion out of fear of giving birth, your parents finding out, or what your classmates may think - that's immature. Being responsible is doing what's best for the baby.

And as for how old you are - ever hear of adoption? You don't need to raise it, just don't kill it. It's not that hard, why anyone would choose abortion above adoption as a solution beyond selfish reasons is way beyond me unless there's chance of pain for the child.

I know this post is highly accusatory, but it really disturbed me and I felt I couldn't let this go without saying something about it.

What if you take all the necessary precautions but still, somehow, end up pregnant?

You say they should do what's best for the baby but what if they have the baby and keep it but end up resenting it for the rest of its life, is that really best for it? Or if they give it up for adoption, yes it may have loving parents and grow up happily but it'll always know in the back of its that it's mother didn't want it and gave him away.

I completely disagree with you, if a woman wants to have an abortion she should be able to. The only time I'm against abortion is if people use it as a form of contraception and rely on it to stop them having a baby e.g someone goes out has unprotected sex, gets pregnant, gets an abortion but then goes and haves unprotected sex again thinking they can just have an abortion.

You've asked why people would choose abortion over adoption well I can answer that. When I have my first child I want it to be because I want it and because I want to look after it. If I found out I was pregnant tomorrow I would get an abortion simply because I don't want to have a child now because I want a stable career and I want to be married before having a child.

[ThePunkAlien]

1. My father didn't stick around, every day I'm reminded in my mind of how weak he was. It is my duty in life to be NOTHING like my father. Still, I can't understand the whole parental shame thing... possibly it's perhaps, if I was growing inside one of these women who decided to off me just because of their parents, I wouldn't be around right now. As for complications - if it's the possibility of death, alright do it, if it's the possibility of the child living a life of pain, alright do it. Any other complications, I can't really see.

2. May I repeat, my birth mother was poor. She had no means of providing for me, yet she didn't go with abortion.

3. It's emotional on both the mother and the embryo, believe me, I have scars from it too - just read what happens psychologically for a lot of adoptees. It's still better than death though, way better. Physical pain? Still can't see that, because that's not even close to a good enough excuse in my books. It's hard letting go, for both, both sides can account to that - but it is the right choice to make, it's being strong. Now I've never known anyone who had an abortion, but I can imagine the after-effects of that would be psychologically draining as well - just as much, if not more so than adoption. Because for the rest of her life, she has to live with the idea that she killed her baby rather than being strong and going through with it and putting it up for adoption so the baby can have a chance at a better life.

I don't know how to see an abortion as an easy way out if the reasons alone constitute: family, peers, money. That's not good enough. There should be concrete reasons such as the possibility of the baby being born with severe birth defects or the birth mother becoming severely ill threatening death. Those, are reasons, "my parents will have a fit" isn't. "My boyfriend ran out" isn't. "What will kids in school think" isn't. The mother wants to provide a good life for her child, she'd opt for adoption rather than death, because then she can live with the notion and belief that she did give her child a better life. Personally, I think that's a lot better to live with.

Do I know concrete details in my memory? No, but I do know the intense connection between mother and child is there and exists even though I've never even seen her face. As you said it's hard for the birth mother to give up the child, because it will be with her the rest of her life - same for the baby. But, what one has to live with in their head is a lot better I'd say, how can it not be? How can living with "I gave up and got an abortion" ever be better than "I staid strong and got an adoption to provide my child with opportunity for a better life"?

[Gingerbread Latte]

Originally Posted by Josh

3. It's emotional on both the mother and the embryo,

Isn't the mother having to give up her baby also emotional on her too? And when the child finds out that its mother didn't want it wouldn't that be emotional for them too?

[ThePunkAlien]

Originally Posted by Boo Ghost

You've asked why people would choose abortion over adoption well I can answer that. When I have my first child I want it to be because I want it and because I want to look after it. If I found out I was pregnant tomorrow I would get an abortion simply because I don't want to have a child now because I want a stable career and I want to be married before having a child.

See, these are the kinds of reasons I'm talking about and the kind of thinking I'm talking about. So because you want to have a baby later, stable career and be married you'd get an abortion rather than sending that child away via adoption? It's not always about you and what you want, that's part of growing up and becoming responsible. If you get pregnant, it's about what's best for the child - not you're future.

I guess that's where I differ from most people, if a girl ever got pregnant I'd be there with her one hundred percent. We'd make the decision of letting our child be adopted or - if we're capable - raising it on our own. I'd sacrifice willingly anything and everything in my life for the sake my child without thinking twice about it. I have a future, that future is coming together faster and more than a lot can say... friends with an academy award winner's son and an internship at a TOP film company. But, I'd drop it all if I ever got a girl pregnant, that's why I've waited off on sex- I know what it can bring.

If you truly want what's best for the child and aren't able to support it, you'd opt for adoption. It may be hard, yes, it's hard on both parties. But, it beats the alternative by and far. I mean, with all these new age thinkers of self-serving, I'd be dead.

Initially, yeah, there is anger at the birth mother. But, then you get over that and understand her scenario and she her as a hero for what she did for you. She could have killed me any chance she got, but she didn't. She choose to be strong.

Originally Posted by Boo Ghost

Isn't the mother having to give up her baby also emotional on her too? And when the child finds out that its mother didn't want it wouldn't that be emotional for them too?

It is emotional, but it beats the alternative. Remember you're talking to someone with FIRST HAND experience with this. I'd much rather be alive than dead.

[Brandon]

Josh, I'm going to have to agree with everything you've said.

I think that abortions should only be done in extreme situations. If I was born with birth defects, I'd eventually wish I wasn't even alive. But I think that, despite how many excuses people give, there really IS no excuse for choosing abortions over adoptions.

[thebigmole]

Originally Posted by Josh

1. My father didn't stick around, every day I'm reminded in my mind of how weak he was. It is my duty in life to be NOTHING like my father. Still, I can't understand the whole parental shame thing... possibly it's perhaps, if I was growing inside one of these women who decided to off me just because of their parents, I wouldn't be around right now. As for complications - if it's the possibility of death, alright do it, if it's the possibility of the child living a life of pain, alright do it. Any other complications, I can't really see.

2. May I repeat, my birth mother was poor. She had no means of providing for me, yet she didn't go with abortion.

3. It's emotional on both the mother and the embryo, believe me, I have scars from it too - just read what happens psychologically for a lot of adoptees. It's still better than death though, way better. Physical pain? Still can't see that, because that's not even close to a good enough excuse in my books. It's hard letting go, for both, both sides can account to that - but it is the right choice to make, it's being strong. Now I've never known anyone who had an abortion, but I can imagine the after-effects of that would be psychologically draining as well - just as much, if not more so than adoption. Because for the rest of her life, she has to live with the idea that she killed her baby rather than being strong and going through with it and putting it up for adoption so the baby can have a chance at a better life.

I don't know how to see an abortion as an easy way out if the reasons alone constitute: family, peers, money. That's not good enough. There should be concrete reasons such as the possibility of the baby being born with severe birth defects or the birth mother becoming severely ill threatening death. Those, are reasons, "my parents will have a fit" isn't. "My boyfriend ran out" isn't. "What will kids in school think" isn't. The mother wants to provide a good life for her child, she'd opt for adoption rather than death, because then she can live with the notion and belief that she did give her child a better life. Personally, I think that's a lot better to live with.

Do I know concrete details in my memory? No, but I do know the intense connection between mother and child is there and exists even though I've never even seen her face. As you said it's hard for the birth mother to give up the child, because it will be with her the rest of her life - same for the baby. But, what one has to live with in their head is a lot better I'd say, how can it not be? How can living with "I gave up and got an abortion" ever be better than "I staid strong and got an adoption to provide my child with opportunity for a better life"?

Ok how about this. I create a medical procedure where if a woman gets pregnant and doesn't want the baby but the father does, I transport the baby into the guy (I'll create a nice womb for him) and he can go through the pregnancy and child birth and the woman can just walk away and leave him. I'll create this especially for you so you can carry a child and then tell me it wasn't painful and scaring (if you didn't want the baby).

Just as you are passionate about this issue so am I. And I have no real reason to be. I don't know anyone who got pregnant young, I don't know anyone who's had an abortion and I myself am a virgin. But I will fight you to the very end. I'm going to be honest if you were a girl I would be seriously less pissed off (though I don't think a girl would say some of the things you have). You can have your opinion to the cows come home but the second you try to impose that opinion on other people there's a problem. Because it is an opinion. That's the problem with this argument and that's why the pro-life side will NEVER win. You see even if the highly improbable happened and abortion was made illegal again that wouldn' stop abortions. Also you see what's great about the pro-choice side, every one can have their opinion, you can be personally against abortion and will never get one, or you can be all for women chosing what they like, and as long as you don't try to impose those opinions on other's and recognise that while you don't like it choice is the best way, then you are pro-choice and everyone is happy.

[ThePunkAlien]

The thing is, I'm not 100% pro-life and keep stating that over and over again. If there is possibility of irreperable harm to the baby or mother, alright it's fine. But these self-serving, selfish reasons I DO have a problem with. Because it's like - I couldn't be here now if it was for the type who get an abortion thinking... "I don't want a baby now, I want to live live now, kill it." I'd be - dead.

So while I'm a virgin and don't personally know those with early pregnancies, I can relate to the embryo because we've got the same scenario going on here... money, the guy ran off, etc. all happened to my Mom. So yeah, it is personal for me due to the embryo situation. Same story, just my Mom chose to give me life rather than a death sentence.

Plus, as I said before, coming from the exact type of event - unplanned pregnancy - I'm connected from life to it. If I ever got a girl pregnant, I'd sacrifice my whole life in an instant. And my life right now? On top of the world - as said before - I'm going places, I already have the connections to make it big. But, a girl gets pregnant - alright, done living in that world, now to being an adult.

[Elf]

And if everyone in the world had your same experiences, thoughts, and felt the exact same way you do, abortion would be against the law. But it's not that easy.

I think that having a baby, being pregnant and giving it up for adoption, or having an abortion is such a tremendous, life-altering decision that it makes me super uncomfortable to think about making that choice for someone else. There are so, so many circumstances that one law cannot cover all of them.

Not everyone can pay for prenatal care, or giving birth, not everyone wants to have a baby just so it can shuffle through the atrocious foster care system until it's 18, not everyone thinks a baby is a person, not everyone thinks that having sex means you consent to a child, and not everyone thinks that giving birth is the only way of taking responsibility for consequences. I'm sorry that you're so disturbed by all of this, but you need to remember that you and your mother were not the only ones who ever had to make this choice.

I was a "mistake" too. I wasn't a planned baby, my parents were shocked and nervous like all get out when they found out my mother was pregnant with me. They chose to go through with the pregnancy anyways, and I'm happy they did. But that was what they decided, and I don't think it's right to deprive anyone else of making their own decision based on what is right for them.

[thebigmole]

Originally Posted by Josh

The thing is, I'm not 100% pro-life and keep stating that over and over again. If there is possibility of irreperable harm to the baby or mother, alright it's fine. But these self-serving, selfish reasons I DO have a problem with. Because it's like - I couldn't be here now if it was for the type who get an abortion thinking... "I don't want a baby now, I want to live live now, kill it." I'd be - dead.

So while I'm a virgin and don't personally know those with early pregnancies, I can relate to the embryo because we've got the same scenario going on here... money, the guy ran off, etc. all happened to my Mom. So yeah, it is personal for me due to the embryo situation. Same story, just my Mom chose to give me life rather than a death sentence.

Plus, as I said before, coming from the exact type of event - unplanned pregnancy - I'm connected from life to it. If I ever got a girl pregnant, I'd sacrifice my whole life in an instant. And my life right now? On top of the world - as said before - I'm going places, I already have the connections to make it big. But, a girl gets pregnant - alright, done living in that world, now to being an adult.

I have two questions for you.
How old was your mom?
What if the girl you got pregnant wanted an abortion. What is she wasn't willing to give up her life and future for a child she didn't want?

I get that you think it's selfish, but the women who get abortions do think about the child, they think about what's best, and they don't think that throwing a child into an already overly crowded system, or trying to raise it on their own when they can't support it is the best thing for their child.

[ThePunkAlien]

Actually, I never made a choice. But, still as said before as long as the reasons aren't purely "self-serving," I'm fine with it. But, then - when I see the beyond selfish reasons... it does disturb me. Because if my birth mother thought that way, as I keep saying - I wouldn't be alive. I know I can come off as strong, but mainly it's the disturbed fear of being placed inside someone who would/could have killed me.

I'm the result, the survivor of the adopt/abort experience.

------------------

My Mom was early twenties, poor and lived in one of the poorest country's in the world. Thus, why the whole issue of money doesn't ring as enough to me. Financially, I had everything going against me and my chances.

I would only have pre-marital sex once I know what the girl thinks about adoption/abortion. If abortion, then - alright, no thanks - it might be pleasurable for me, but I don't want to risk it. I think it's something that being from this kind of experience, you always have at the back of your mind in every situation like this. As for giving birth, the time, the money, the question of adoption, etc. - I'd throw my life away for my family in a heart beat. I could be Mr. Hollywood, but if my family needs me - my family needs me. No ifs, buts, or ands about it - I'll never become my father.

[losing touch.]

while you're entitled to your own opinion, as a guy you'll never be pregnant and therefore would never have to go through having an unwanted baby. some people make mistakes and some people simply don't have the means of looking after a baby. i would argue that it is in fact selfish to go through with a pregnancy when you know you cannot provide for that baby or give it a good life.

some people are raped, some people are let down by their choice of protection and some people just make stupid decisions. should they be punished for it and be forced into having a kid that they don't want? of course not.

personally, i'm of the view that if i were to get pregnant i probably wouldn't have an abortion [even though that couldn't happen because i can't have children.] but i fully support other peoples rights to have an abortion if that is what's best for them.

some people are too young, too immature, not financially stable and so on.. to look after a child.

you talk about adoption, well what if they don't want to give their child away? some people don't want to go through the pregnancy as well. especially some young people, i know there is a definite stigma attached to getting pregnant at a young age and some people don't want to go through the torment.

[ThePunkAlien]

I see it as the responsible person has a series of choices to make.

1. If they're not financially, emotionally, etc. able to care for a child yet, put that child up for adoption. Do what's best for the life growing inside you, rather than purely for yourself. Sex is a mature act, if you're responsible enough to have sex - you should be responsible enough to be prepared to deal with the consequences. I'm not saying, you had sex - now here's difficulties, what I'm saying is - enter sex being prepared for what may come.

2. If you want to raise your child, then by all means, do so but be prepared for being a parent and the responsibilities that pertain to being a parent.

3. If you want to raise your child, but do not have the means to do it... alright, do what's best - give the child up for adoption. Yeah, I won't lie, it will sting psychologically for both parties involved - the child and the parents - but it by and far beats the alternative. I'd rather be alive than dead. You also have the chance of starting a family later when you're more prepared and the possibility of one day reuniting.

4. If there are possibilities of irreperable harm to the baby or to yourself, by all means, don't risk it and get the abortion. But, what bothers me is when people do it when they're not facing the extremes - just that they "don't want it at this point in their life."

5. Wait off on sex until you're ready to handle the responsibilities that may or may not come from it.

Abortion shouldn't be illegal, but it should be reserved for the extreme of scenarios. Not stigma, not how others might see you, but for what's responsible and best for the child. Actually, it should be restricted - those under nineteen - need to have parental consult beforehand, I think that would get rid of the whole "my parents will find out, kill it!" response I see sometimes based purely out of fear than thinking things through all the way. Because it is the most "adult decision" that one needs to make in life, ones that a still developing brain might not be ready to fully handle. This wouldn't completely reduce abortions, but it would probably reduce the number of early pregnancies that lead to abortion, because part of it seems more to do with the fear and stigma than anything else.

And believe me, as the "embryo" who's mother was put through this, I'm happy she did what was best and chose to give me life. I'm willing to say you can even ask those in orphanages right now, would you rather be alive or be aborted by your mother? They'd say - be alive.

As said, coming from this type of life, I probably think a lot differently than others do. Even hearing first night stands or girls who "sleep around" sickens me, because they aren't seeing the possibilities of what might happen and seem like they don't even care. When I hear my friends talking about it, it's really off-putting because all I can see is my father who knocked up my Mom, didn't know how to handle things and ran away.

Being from the opposite side of the coin, it's colored how I see things. The lengths I'm willing to go to if I ever get a girl pregnant, I'm ready and willing to throw my whole life away, because I don't ever want to be my father no matter how hards things might get.

[VanishingActs]

Josh, what if it were you? What if you were a female? What if you were pregnant? You're scared, you feel alone, you don't know what to do, you are scared of dissapointing other people?
It's all well to say "I'm responsible I wouldn't get pregnant" but you never know. Sometimes these things just happen. I don't think you should be too quick to judge.

[ThePunkAlien]

Role-reversal, I'd go through with it. Obviously.

If I ever become a father in an event like this or any - I'm willing to throw everything away for my child. What everything constitutes is my dreams for my future that are coming together. I have a friend who's an academy award winner's son & an internship with a TOP film company that could possibly lead to a job when I move out there.

You give me the choice right now. Throw everything away or pursue my dreams? No matter how hard it would be, I choose family over my future. The same would be in any scenario I would have to go through regarding that. I would go through hell for my child if need be.

[losing touch.]

[quote=Josh;157641]I see it as the responsible person has a series of choices to make.

1. If they're not financially, emotionally, etc. able to care for a child yet, put that child up for adoption. Do what's best for the life growing inside you, rather than purely for yourself. Sex is a mature act, if you're responsible enough to have sex - you should be responsible enough to be prepared to deal with the consequences. I'm not saying, you had sex - now here's difficulties, what I'm saying is - enter sex being prepared for what may come.


And believe me, as the "embryo" who's mother was put through this, I'm happy she did what was best and chose to give me life. I'm willing to say you can even ask those in orphanages right now, would you rather be alive or be aborted by your mother? They'd say - be alive.
quote]

i only really want to comment on these two points;

to your first point, while in theory it would be good if that happened, in a lot of cases it's not accurate. loads of people don't wait until they are mature enough before they start having sex, i know i for one didn't. i don't think it's your place to say that people should only have sex if they're willing to face the consequences. for a lot of people sex is just a bit of fun, and they have no intention of having a kid from a one night stand. so they get pregnant, by accident, then it's their right to have an abortion. you can't dictate what other people do with their own bodies.

as for the second point, well it's not really relevent because the embryo would have been killed before it had a chance to experience life so therefore wouldn't know what it's missing out on, or not as the case may be.

by all means have your opinion about what you would hypothetically do, even though you wouldn't be in that situation, but i don't think you should try and tell others what they should do.

and as for your comment about the fact that you'd always be there for your kid no matter what, well it's kinda different being a father as apposed to being the mother who has the carry the kid for 9 months. it's not your body that it's growing inside of, therfore you wouldn't really have much say over what happened to your kid abortion wise.

[Blackwing]

Josh what about if someone breaks into your house and tries to stab you, but you are the one who kills him before he is able to inflict any kind of attack. Are you considered a murderer because you killed someone??

[ThePunkAlien]

More trying to 'educate' than tell, because most don't - from what I can see - even take a moment to think about it. I naturally come off strong. I don't intend to force people what to do, I'm not a dictator, but I can advise as to what I believe are the best choices. I just, as said, always come off strong. Especially since I'm personally linked to an unexpected pregnancy, that's a huge part of my origins.

-----------

EDGE your comment actually makes no sense and has no connection. I've said if it risks the girl dying or the baby being born with serious birth defects, then by all means get the abortion - don't risk it. That's why I don't believe it should be illegal, there are scenarios in which it would be the best choice. But, many do not face those extremes who get abortion. So, yes, if my life was put in danger - I'd kill him. If a girl may die from pregnancy, get the abortion. I never stated to the contrary, only for those who aren't in that particular extreme situation. I don't see life for a life, what I align with is - if it's not a life or death situation, don't kill.

Here's better questions:

Would you kill someone to get ahead in life? Would you kill someone so that your parents and peers don't find out about a secret you have? Would you kill someone so you don't lose money? Would you kill someone so you're not chained to responsibilities? Would you kill someone so that you can't be attached to a stigma? Because - that - is exactly the line of thinking I don't understand. Wouldn't you be considered a murderer if you answered yes to any of those questions?

[sushi_error]

Honestly, I think it is difficult to take a 'side' on this hot-button issue, because many of us may never go through teenage pregnancy. In the end, I don't think it is fair that someone should make a decision for someone else, because they are NOT in that position. Plus, I would hope that a woman weighs all of her options, before making a final decision.

[ThePunkAlien]

Originally Posted by sushi_error

Honestly, I think it is difficult to take a 'side' on this hot-button issue, because many of us may never go through teenage pregnancy. In the end, I don't think it is fair that someone should make a decision for someone else, because they are NOT in that position. Plus, I would hope that a woman weighs all of her options, before making a final decision.

This is why in an earlier post I stated one possibility to ease situations is that parental consult for those under a certain age is needed and required. Kind of like anything else - driving, alcohol, etc. Because from what I've seen what clouds many in early pregnancy are more the "fears" of what will happen if anyone finds out due to the stigma than weighing all options. This provide support and aleviate those fears by having a parental figure involved. I believe if this was the case, there'd probably be fewer abortions among early pregnancies because it would be more a question of what's best for the child than "oh my god, what if they find out? I'm doomed!" which seems to stain a lot of thoughts from what I've seen.

[Magic.]

Not all adopted children feel how you do. I understand that you respect your mother for giving you life and not aborting you, and that is a great thing. But some adopted children don't see it that way. I have a friend who is adopted and he says that much as he loves his adopted family he doesn't think he will ever feel truly wanted because his mother gave him away. He says he would rather have been aborted than given away. Obviously that is just his view, but it shows there are other sides to how adopted kids feel ... I completely respect women who are able to have a child and give them up for adoption, but I for one know that if I go through with a pregnancy I will keep my baby, I wouldn't be able to cope with the thought of someone else raising my child.

The act of rape isn't just a 'painful experience', the emotional side is severe. And then finding out you're pregnant? Giving birth to that child, whether you give it away or not is giong to be a really, really hard thing to do.

To some extent I say that I would have an abortion [up to a point in pregnancy] but when it comes down to it, I may not be able to go through with it. Having an abortion is a massive decision to make, and is by no means the easy way out.

[PhoenixAlive]

I've been a part of these discussions on TH before, and I totally have to agree with Josh. I also don't think its fair to disregard his statements just because he's a man and would never have to make this very, very difficult decision. He has a very legitimate claim to a say in this discussion. He would not exist if not for a brave woman who gave up 9 months to give him LIFE.

I guess this topic is such a touchy one for me because I was also a "mistake". My biological mother was 14, and I was the product of a one-night-stand. However she did the brave thing and now I am alive thanks to her.

I have faced this decision myself (yay! 31 weeks pregnant tomorrow!) and chose to keep my baby, despite the fact that it means I have to put a hold on my dreams.

That said, I fully realize that every woman's situation is different, and I understand how incredibly difficult the decision to give up your baby either through termination or adoption can be.

[ThePunkAlien]

As for me being a guy, we get labeled a lot as only having sex on our mind. I'd say that goes for both guys and girls. But, some people have a different origin that not a lot share - such as being from an unexpected pregnancy and adopted or put in an orphanage - who have the closest look someone could get to the embryo of such an occurrence. There's two really real alternate realities for me - the one that I'm living today and the one in which my birth mom could have killed me. I also think this is the reason why I get ill around people talking about one-night stands, seeing sex as a really responsible act one needs to be prepared for, and the will to do anything for family... in essence, like nonadoptees, I don't want to become my father.

---------------------

Magician, as I said, I won't lie. There's a lot of angst that comes from being adopted, more so than what a nonadoptee has to face in their life. There are feelings of not belonging, of thinking you were cast out into the world. On the other hand, as much as that sucks - I'd still rather be alive and many adoptees, I've talked to a lot in dealing with my own identity crises, say that overall they're still thankful for being alive.

I'd say, going off subject, that possibly your friend might be going through a depression? That your friend may be suicidal and doesn't want to live because of something painful going on in his life at the moment? Many people, at some point, including nonadoptees have depressions and ask "why am I alive?" So, even though it's off subject, I just thought I should tell you that it's not an exclusive adoptee thing... your friend may have even been reaching out to you, a sign of depression and possible suicidal thoughts, that you should be aware of.

[Algernon]

Hey, I made a thread about this too. I'm pretty much trying to say what you did. If no one else here agrees with you, I agree with you. Thank you for standing up for the unborn lives of humans. When you have sex, you are taking responsibility. Amen.

[thebigmole]

Originally Posted by Josh

This is why in an earlier post I stated one possibility to ease situations is that parental consult for those under a certain age is needed and required. Kind of like anything else - driving, alcohol, etc. Because from what I've seen what clouds many in early pregnancy are more the "fears" of what will happen if anyone finds out due to the stigma than weighing all options. This provide support and aleviate those fears by having a parental figure involved. I believe if this was the case, there'd probably be fewer abortions among early pregnancies because it would be more a question of what's best for the child than "oh my god, what if they find out? I'm doomed!" which seems to stain a lot of thoughts from what I've seen.

Ah yes parental consent. Let's see what about if the girl was raped by her father. Should she have to get his permission then? I'm talking about a situation where she obviously didn't report it because she's too scared. Parental consent for underage pregnancies is not a good solution in my book. It can lead to many dangerous consequences for the girl.

You know I've been nice to you and haven't brought up rape yet. Then you'd get a whole different degree of passion from me. But until someone else really starts it I'll keep quite.


Also I don't know if you really know anyone who's had an abortion, but from what I've heard it is anything but a quick and easy decision.

[ThePunkAlien]

That's why I used PARENTAL FIGURE rather than PARENT. Parental figure can range anywhere between a trusted teacher, a guidance councilor, a neighbor, etc. This is more to ensure that the girl doesn't go through with alone and has someone with more experience and a more developed brain - yes, brains continue to evolve well into your early twenties.

I still don't see how rape could constitute to someone taking a life and thinking it's right. I'd actually believe, psychologically she'd be worse off...

If anything I'm willing to bet that the women who have to live with the fact that they went through with an abortion have it a lot worse off than a woman who has to live with putting her child up for adoption where they may attain a "better life" and may, perhaps, be reunited someday. So, even psychologically, I'd say abortion would be a lot harder of a crutch to bear for a girl than adoption.

I'm more connected to this than you asking the "if you were the girl and pregnant" questions are. Yeah, I may never get pregnant. But, guess what - I'm the embryo, which is a lot closer to it than any of you have ever experienced and may ever experience. So, despite being a guy, I'm more connected to this debate than any girl may ever get because she may have a stable pregnancy where none of these questions and/or scenarios come up. There's two people here - the unexpected embryo and the girl who didn't expect to get pregnant.