Triggering: Philadelphia doctor accused of murdering patient, newborns

[Blackwing]

http://www.cnn.com/2011/CRIME/01/19/pennsylvania.abortion.doctor/index.html?hpt=T1



Dr. Kermit Barron Gosnell, 69, is accused of killing a female patient
He's also accused of killing babies born alive in illegal abortions by cutting spinal cords
Theft, perjury, illegal operations also alleged in case
Doctor's wife, sister-in-law and 7 other west Philadelphia clinic workers face various charges

[FlyingTrue]

Absolutely terrible. I hope they are punished severely to the fullest extent of the law.

[Pelios]

My grasp of the English language doesn't really allow me to fully describe how I feel about this doctor so I'll sum it up in two words: Death Penalty.

[The ANTI-Troll]

....maybe i read it wrong. but he was operation a abortion clinic right ? thats what it was right ?. if so only murder i see him responsable for is the female patients.

let me explain that..

he provided a service he didnt do it for free and he only did it to people who wanted an abortion... if anyone should be held responsable its the mothers that went there.

[thebigmole]

Originally Posted by The ANTI-Troll

....maybe i read it wrong. but he was operation a abortion clinic right ? thats what it was right ?. if so only murder i see him responsable for is the female patients.

let me explain that..

he provided a service he didnt do it for free and he only did it to people who wanted an abortion... if anyone should be held responsable its the mothers that went there.

No he performed illegal abortions, abortions after 12 weeks are only legal if the pregnancy is a health risk for the mother or the baby has a terminal disease. Basically he cut out viable babies and killed them, that's murder. Legally speaking if a baby takes a breath outside of the womb it's alive. So he killed living human beings=murder.

[mIssIng:nO]

Originally Posted by thebigmole

No he performed illegal abortions, abortions after 12 weeks are only legal if the pregnancy is a health risk for the mother or the baby has a terminal disease. Basically he cut out viable babies and killed them, that's murder. Legally speaking if a baby takes a breath outside of the womb it's alive. So he killed living human beings=murder.

The mothers brought them there

granted, he shouldn't be preforming illegal abortions, but the mothers are still at fault

[Blackwing]

Originally Posted by mIssIng:nO

The mothers brought them there

granted, he shouldn't be preforming illegal abortions, but the mothers are still at fault

The babies were born alive in the sixth, seventh and eighth months of pregnancy, but their spinal cords were allegedly severed with scissors, Williams said in a statement.
Nine other people who worked in the west Philadelphia medical office, including Gosnell's wife and sister-in-law, also were charged, Williams said. The practice, called the Women's Medical Society, served mostly low-income minority women for years, he said.
Williams provided a grisly scenario of the shuttered abortion clinic: A search of the office last year by authorities found bags and bottles holding aborted fetuses scattered throughout the building. Jars containing the severed feet of babies lined a shelf. Furniture and equipment was blood-stained, dusty and broken


Does this mean the women who came to him are responsible for his sick trophys?

[The ANTI-Troll]

Originally Posted by mIssIng:nO

The mothers brought them there

granted, he shouldn't be preforming illegal abortions, but the mothers are still at fault

bingo....

at mole..

i didnt read anything about him running around abducting woman and killing there kids..woman came to him. also i dont care for the law on this issue im talking about in MY OPPINION.... if he gets anything IN MY OPPINION it should be murder for the adult female and MAYBE accessory to murder for the others..

[thebigmole]

Originally Posted by The ANTI-Troll

bingo....

at mole..

i didnt read anything about him running around abducting woman and killing there kids..woman came to him. also i dont care for the law on this issue im talking about in MY OPPINION.... if he gets anything IN MY OPPINION it should be murder for the adult female and MAYBE accessory to murder for the others..

But the women coming to him were VERY poor. It's reasonable to assume that they didn't know all of what was going on, maybe even how far along they were. Sure the women shouldn't have been going to get illegal abortions, but they certainly weren't signing up to have their child delivered alive and then have their spinal chords cut with scissors.

[The ANTI-Troll]

Originally Posted by thebigmole

But the women coming to him were VERY poor. It's reasonable to assume that they didn't know all of what was going on, maybe even how far along they were. Sure the women shouldn't have been going to get illegal abortions, but they certainly weren't signing up to have their child delivered alive and then have their spinal chords cut with scissors.

they still had a choice.. but they went to a doctor for an abortion they had to be okay with what hes doing. cause im sure most the ladies knew how it was done. unless they didnt ask how it was done then thats there fault..

granted he did something illegal.... but the mothers also engaged in having something illegally done. there was other ways he could have went about... eliminating the babies. i dont agree with how it was done..

but ill say again i honestly dont believe they had no idea how it was done they had to hear about it from someone and they likelly got told details by that person..

[Pelios]

Originally Posted by thebigmole

But the women coming to him were VERY poor. It's reasonable to assume that they didn't know all of what was going on, maybe even how far along they were. Sure the women shouldn't have been going to get illegal abortions, but they certainly weren't signing up to have their child delivered alive and then have their spinal chords cut with scissors.

I agree with you. I'll just like to add straight from the article.

"The baby had been born and was on a cold steel table and murdered by using -- there's no medical basis for snipping or taking scissors and putting them into the neck and cutting, severing the spinal cord. It's just homicide. It's just murder," Williams told CNN.

"A doctor who cuts into the necks severing the spinal cords of living, breathing babies, who would survive with proper medical attention, is committing murder under the law."

[MegaMadness]

It's sick.

That's just wrong.

[Jocelyn.]

Wow.

The "doctors" that performed these abortions and the mothers that went there are despicable, poor excuses for human beings.

I get that they were poor, uneducated minorities.... but how uneducated to you have to be to think that an abortion in your 8th month is ok? I'm very pro-choice, but at that point it is a human being capable of sustaining its own life. Its murder. Have the baby and drop it off at a safe haven or place it up for adoption...

[mIssIng:nO]

Originally Posted by Truth

The babies were born alive in the sixth, seventh and eighth months of pregnancy, but their spinal cords were allegedly severed with scissors, Williams said in a statement.
Nine other people who worked in the west Philadelphia medical office, including Gosnell's wife and sister-in-law, also were charged, Williams said. The practice, called the Women's Medical Society, served mostly low-income minority women for years, he said.
Williams provided a grisly scenario of the shuttered abortion clinic: A search of the office last year by authorities found bags and bottles holding aborted fetuses scattered throughout the building. Jars containing the severed feet of babies lined a shelf. Furniture and equipment was blood-stained, dusty and broken


Does this mean the women who came to him are responsible for his sick trophys?

Of course not, I never said that, all I was saying is that the women are responsible for their actions, if they weren't going to a shady doctor it may not of happened

of course I don't know the whole story though, so i"m kinda just giving my opinion, all I'm saying is a guy doing late abortions doesn't seem like the greatest doctor to visit

Originally Posted by thebigmole

No he performed illegal abortions, abortions after 12 weeks are only legal if the pregnancy is a health risk for the mother or the baby has a terminal disease. Basically he cut out viable babies and killed them, that's murder. Legally speaking if a baby takes a breath outside of the womb it's alive. So he killed living human beings=murder.

Actually it's illegal after the 145th day of pregnancy (or 20 weeks, 5 days) unless the growing fetus is posing a health risk upon the mother.

Day 146+ fetuses are viable.

Note: I'm just going with the earliest fetal birth, so don't say I'm wrong. Generally it's around 20 weeks, but I think the real date of viability lies in 22 weeks.

[Nightblood.]

Gosnell's wife, Pearl, 49, of Philadelphia, is also facing charges of providing an abortion at 24 or more weeks, conspiracy and other related charges, Williams said. She has no medical license and is accused of performing illegal abortions at the clinic, he said.

It's 24 weeks according to the article.
It is sick. And although I, to a small extent, agree with Dustin the women probably had NO idea they were being seen by people with absolutely NO medical license.

[shimmeringfaerie]

Originally Posted by The ANTI-Troll

bingo....

at mole..

i didnt read anything about him running around abducting woman and killing there kids..woman came to him. also i dont care for the law on this issue im talking about in MY OPPINION.... if he gets anything IN MY OPPINION it should be murder for the adult female and MAYBE accessory to murder for the others..

But he wasn't an accessory to murder. He actually killed those babies, so he did murder them. There's not really any way that you can debate that. The fact that their mothers went there willingly is irrelevant to his charges. Unless you want to argue that the law should be if you kill someone because someone else asked you to then you shouldn't be charged with murder?

I do agree that the mothers did the wrong thing. However, I do wonder how much information the mothers were provided with. Did anyone tell them that their babies were able to survive on their own at that age? Did anyone even tell them how far along they actually were?

I think the mothers should be looked into (though I'm sure they would have a hard time finding them since a shady clinic probably doesn't keep a lot of paperwork), but I'm sure there is probably a lot of factors to their stories. No one decides to have an abortion in their eighth month just for the hell of it. Women who want abortions usually get them done as soon as possible, and it would be hard to get to even 6 months without realising you were pregnant.

[The ANTI-Troll]

Originally Posted by ShimmeringFaerie

But he wasn't an accessory to murder. He actually killed those babies, so he did murder them. There's not really any way that you can debate that. The fact that their mothers went there willingly is irrelevant to his charges. Unless you want to argue that the law should be if you kill someone because someone else asked you to then you shouldn't be charged with murder?

I do agree that the mothers did the wrong thing. However, I do wonder how much information the mothers were provided with. Did anyone tell them that their babies were able to survive on their own at that age? Did anyone even tell them how far along they actually were?

I think the mothers should be looked into (though I'm sure they would have a hard time finding them since a shady clinic probably doesn't keep a lot of paperwork), but I'm sure there is probably a lot of factors to their stories. No one decides to have an abortion in their eighth month just for the hell of it. Women who want abortions usually get them done as soon as possible, and it would be hard to get to even 6 months without realising you were pregnant.

last i knew if i payed/hired someone to kill another person i would also be charged with murder... i think the same thing should be applied here theres no way i believe all the blame belongs on the doctor.. the mothers went to him,payed him to kill there child...

[emma01]

That doctor is just sick. I know the mothers shouldn't have taken their kids there, but HE murdered them. He should be charged for murder. You are all saying the mothers should have known better and should have made a choice, but same goes for the doctor...he should have known better and made a choice not to run the service. Im not saying the mothers shouldn't get in trouble, they were wrong too...but I disagree with people who say he should not be charged for killing those babies.

[shimmeringfaerie]

Originally Posted by The ANTI-Troll

last i knew if i payed/hired someone to kill another person i would also be charged with murder... i think the same thing should be applied here theres no way i believe all the blame belongs on the doctor.. the mothers went to him,payed him to kill there child...

You're assuming that the mothers knew all about what was going on in the procedure, but yes, I am confused as to why they aren't facing charges as well. My guess would be that they don't know who the mothers are and therefore can't charge them. If they did know, however, I would assume that the mothers would be charged as well. Women have been charged in the past for getting illegal abortions.

What I was more arguing is the fact that you said the doctor shouldn't be charged for the murder of the babies or should only be charged as an accessory. I don't understand why you argued that. The fact that the mothers ought to be charged for murder as well doesn't lessen the amount of blame that he should receive.

[The ANTI-Troll]

Originally Posted by ShimmeringFaerie

You're assuming that the mothers knew all about what was going on in the procedure, but yes, I am confused as to why they aren't facing charges as well. My guess would be that they don't know who the mothers are and therefore can't charge them. If they did know, however, I would assume that the mothers would be charged as well. Women have been charged in the past for getting illegal abortions.

What I was more arguing is the fact that you said the doctor shouldn't be charged for the murder of the babies or should only be charged as an accessory. I don't understand why you argued that. The fact that the mothers ought to be charged for murder as well doesn't lessen the amount of blame that he should receive.

was halfway in the bottle when i wrote those post..

[OMFG!You'reActuallySmart!]

I don't understand the charges either. According to the article, there were fetuses, or parts of fetuses, in various containers and open unsanitary equipment. How could someone be unaware of what was going to transpire with all the evidence around them to look at? Argument aside of whether the fetuses are people by social and legal definitions, the fetuses didn't walk in their by themselves. The mothers brought this living organism to be killed and presumably knew it was illegal given the reputation this doctor formed.

It's like hiring a hitman and in his "office", there are images or parts of his previous hits showing him killing them, weapons laid out and knowing he was a prominent hitman, I cant understand how one could then say one was unaware of what was going to transpire when they met to form the contract. The mothers must have been deprived of at least sight, smell and common-sense.

I cant understand why the mothers aren't being charged. Perhaps they shouldn't receive the same charges as the doctor is but accessory in murder or conspiracy to commit murder seem fitting.

I guess one thing to argue though is the definition of murder. Does it require killing a PERSON, which is a social and legal label, or a HUMAN, which is a genetic label independent of age? Would the fetuses be considered a person or not in this? Obviously they're a human, there's no argument there. The DA Williams was tossing around the words homicide and murder but the majority of the time he did, it seemed to be out of emotions not out of legal discourse.

[Casey.]

Well, this is horrible. But I don't really understand all the charges? It sounds very...iffy in certian spots.

[shimmeringfaerie]

I cant understand why the mothers aren't being charged. Perhaps they shouldn't receive the same charges as the doctor is but accessory in murder or conspiracy to commit murder seem fitting.

Do they actually know who the mothers are? They know what sort of area they most likely come from, but it seems unlikely that there were records kept of these women by the clinic. That would be my guess as to why the women aren't being charged.